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  1. #18
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eva Fadilla View Post
    all@ ya I think this incident caused by WADA and BKA. when WADA came to korea national training center 3 times, there is no LYD and KKJ because they are following national and international turnament. it seems WADA didn't see players' schedule. and for BKA, they forgot to give reason why LYD and KKJ didn't following the dopping test
    You cannot blame the WADA for going to the training center in search of LYD.
    They went there because LYD (or the BKA) told them that he would be there.
    And if he wasn't there at that time, who is to blame for it? The WADA or LYD?


    For clarity, allow me to summarise the process:


    1. The BKA submits to the WADA a list of players for the anti-doping program.
    This list, which usually includes the top players, is called the 'registered list'.


    2. The player (or the BKA) must update a database (called ADAMS) with their personal particulars.

    The most important part is the 'whereabouts information'.

    This is a list of work and residential locations (with contact information) where the player will be on each day of the next three months.
    Further, this information must also reveal where he will be on each day during any one hour of his choice (between 6am and 11pm). This has to be specific ("visiting a spa" will not do, but "at the Golden Mile Spa at 9pm" is fine).
    And, of course, he has to be where he state he will be.


    3. Based on this secure, restricted-access database, anti-doping officials will plan a test.
    If the test is at any random time, they will call up the player and inform him that they are coming over.
    It's the player's responsibility to provide the officials access to the location (even if it is a military base).
    Alternatively, the officials may also require his presence at a nearby testing venue.
    If so, he player needs to present himself within a reasonable amount of time (say, for driving over to take the test).
    And, finally, if the officials decide to conduct the test during that specific one hour chosen by the player, they simply turn up without any pre-arrival call.


    Three 'whereabouts failures' within a span of 18 months makes a player liable for penalties.
    In short, Lee Yong Dae and Kim Ki Jung weren't available for samples collection on those three occasions in the last one-and-a-half years when the officials came looking for them at those locations where the players said each time they would be.


    PS: By the way, 'whereabouts information' can be updated even right before the period begins. So, claiming that "it was a last-minute change of schedule or plan" will not be a useful defence in an appeal against the ban.

  2. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abinu View Post
    So sad to here that
    yeah. we are same

  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    You cannot blame the WADA for going to the training center in search of LYD.They went there because LYD (or the BKA) told them that he would be there.And if he wasn't there at that time, who is to blame for it? The WADA or LYD?For clarity, allow me to summarise the process: 1. The BKA submits to the WADA a list of players for the anti-doping program.This list, which usually includes the top players, is called the 'registered list'. 2. The player (or the BKA) must update a database (called ADAMS) with their personal particulars. The most important part is the 'whereabouts information'. This is a list of work and residential locations (with contact information) where the player will be on each day of the next three months. Further, this information must also reveal where he will be on each day during any one hour of his choice (between 6am and 11pm). This has to be specific ("visiting a spa" will not do, but "at the Golden Mile Spa at 9pm" is fine).And, of course, he has to be where he state he will be.3. Based on this secure, restricted-access database, anti-doping officials will plan a test. If the test is at any random time, they will call up the player and inform him that they are coming over.It's the player's responsibility to provide the officials access to the location (even if it is a military base).Alternatively, the officials may also require his presence at a nearby testing venue. If so, he player needs to present himself within a reasonable amount of time (say, for driving over to take the test). And, finally, if the officials decide to conduct the test during that specific one hour chosen by the player, they simply turn up without any pre-arrival call.Three 'whereabouts failures' within a span of 18 months makes a player liable for penalties. In short, Lee Yong Dae and Kim Ki Jung weren't available for samples collection on those three occasions in the last one-and-a-half years when the officials came looking for them at those locations where the players said each time they would be.PS: By the way, 'whereabouts information' can be updated even right before the period begins. So, claiming that "it was a last-minute change of schedule or plan" will not be a useful defence in an appeal against the ban.
    so confused to know who's blame for it. i will follow this incident until the end. btw thanks for the information

  4. #21
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eva Fadilla View Post
    so confused to know who's blame for it. i will follow this incident until the end. btw thanks for the information
    There is no room for confusion.
    The players and the BKA are to blame.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    You cannot blame the WADA for going to the training center in search of LYD.
    They went there because LYD (or the BKA) told them that he would be there.
    And if he wasn't there at that time, who is to blame for it? The WADA or LYD?


    For clarity, allow me to summarise the process:


    1. The BKA submits to the WADA a list of players for the anti-doping program.
    This list, which usually includes the top players, is called the 'registered list'.


    2. The player (or the BKA) must update a database (called ADAMS) with their personal particulars.

    The most important part is the 'whereabouts information'.

    This is a list of work and residential locations (with contact information) where the player will be on each day of the next three months.
    Further, this information must also reveal where he will be on each day during any one hour of his choice (between 6am and 11pm). This has to be specific ("visiting a spa" will not do, but "at the Golden Mile Spa at 9pm" is fine).
    And, of course, he has to be where he state he will be.


    3. Based on this secure, restricted-access database, anti-doping officials will plan a test.
    If the test is at any random time, they will call up the player and inform him that they are coming over.
    It's the player's responsibility to provide the officials access to the location (even if it is a military base).
    Alternatively, the officials may also require his presence at a nearby testing venue.
    If so, he player needs to present himself within a reasonable amount of time (say, for driving over to take the test).
    And, finally, if the officials decide to conduct the test during that specific one hour chosen by the player, they simply turn up without any pre-arrival call.


    Three 'whereabouts failures' within a span of 18 months makes a player liable for penalties.
    In short, Lee Yong Dae and Kim Ki Jung weren't available for samples collection on those three occasions in the last one-and-a-half years when the officials came looking for them at those locations where the players said each time they would be.


    PS: By the way, 'whereabouts information' can be updated even right before the period begins. So, claiming that "it was a last-minute change of schedule or plan" will not be a useful defence in an appeal against the ban.

  5. #22
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    This happened to a British athlete called Christine Ohuruogu. Her last test date was missed due to a double booking by the stadium she normally trains. She rearranged to train somewhere else for the day totally last minute on the other side of London and forgot to phone the testing body to tell them(probably not on your mind at all). Per chance the tester turned up on this very day. They called her when they arrived, she tried to high tail it across the city to catch them in time but they just left.
    Who of you could account for exactly where you are going to be at all times? It's just a ridiculous concept.

    Why not just test them regularly at competitions and stick to that???? That's the only time it matters anyway.

  6. #23
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    This happened to a British athlete called Christine Ohuruogu. Her last test date was missed due to a double booking by the stadium she normally trains. She rearranged to train somewhere else for the day totally last minute on the other side of London and forgot to phone the testing body to tell them(probably not on your mind at all). Per chance the tester turned up on this very day. They called her when they arrived, she tried to high tail it across the city to catch them in time but they just left.
    Who of you could account for exactly where you are going to be at all times? It's just a ridiculous concept.

    Why not just test them regularly at competitions and stick to that???? That's the only time it matters anyway.
    Restricting the tests to competition venues beats the purpose.

    Many of the 'sophisticated' or 'light' PEDs disappear from blood, urine and tissue in 24 hours.
    This is why sportspersons are tested at random hours and at random locations.

    The ADAMS database allows the anti-doping agencies to track suspicious travel.
    For instance, if a British rugby player were to regularly spend time in a Russian village which has no rugby going on, that would be flagged for investigation.

    The process in use here was formulated after the majority of international and national sports federations and associations (including the BWF and the BKA) agreed to it.

    Yes, the athlete has to provide a general contactable location for every day of the next three months - but then, this isn't very challenging as these are active sportspersons who usually stick to a rigid training schedule.

    Additionally, they also need to specify a location where they will be available for just one hour every day between 6am and 11pm.

    That sounds tough, but in actual practice, it isn't.

    Most people provide the 7am to 8am period (the other favourite is 10pm to 11pm) when they are most likely showering or at the gym or still asleep (in other words: at that specified location).

    By the way, it takes three 'whereabouts failures' in 18 months to attract a penalty.
    The athlete you mentioned must have missed the test on two previous occasions.

  7. #24
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Default Be professional

    Most international pro athletes have even less reason than in the past, for not being present for their tests.

    Most of them have a trainer, coach, and an Association administrator of some sort who between them are always mindful of the athlete's schedule and whereabouts. The athlete himself/herself probably has a smartphone, a tablet, a watch that James Bond would be proud to wear, a Google+ account, a FB and Twitter page, and so on...

    Does BWF/WADA inform the athlete by email? Phone? Text/SMS? Snail mail? In any and all cases, it is simply a matter of taking 5 seconds to insert the appointment into his/her digital calendar/s and forward the appointment notification to his/her trainer/coach/admin. Athletes are actually very organised people- they have to be, to reach the pinnacle of their sport. I cannot believe for even one second that an athlete has a valid excuse for not taking the WADA notification as seriously as his/her next training session.

    ...Especially when every athlete knows how important the dope tests are -and what the consequences are, for either failing the test or failing to show up for the test. Dope testing is part of the package of being an international-level pro athlete. Just as the fun, fangirls, fanboys, money, endorsements and fame and glory are a part of it. If you cannot meet your obligations -3 times in a row!- you've no business to complain. You deserve what you get.

  8. #25
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    ^ See, that's why I'm not gonna turn pro.

  9. #26
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    ^ See, that's why I'm not gonna turn pro.
    You can be a pro and not be subject to this 'whereabouts' reporting process.
    But, for that to happen, your national association needs to help you.

    It's up to each national association to pick the names to be on that country's 'registered list'.
    And only those on the list need to provide the whereabouts information for the ADAMS database.

    But this doesn't mean immunity from random testing for banned substances.
    The anti-doping agency has the power to call up even those not on the list.
    (And it would be suspicious if a prominent, active sportsperson is not on the list.)

  10. #27
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    From my point of view some players and associations underestimate the importance of updating the whereabouts. And even worse, they underestimate the kind of punishment for violating the rules.

    I think after this high profile case, other badminton players will not have excuses if they are violating these rules. But again, they probably will make sure they will not do that.

    As this is the first case, many will not blame the players. It is unfortunate that it has to be Lee Yong Dae who is probably one of the top players that the audiences are attracted to watch, who gets the punishment.

  11. #28
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    Restricting the tests to competition venues beats the purpose.

    Many of the 'sophisticated' or 'light' PEDs disappear from blood, urine and tissue in 24 hours.
    This is why sportspersons are tested at random hours and at random locations.

    The ADAMS database allows the anti-doping agencies to track suspicious travel.
    For instance, if a British rugby player were to regularly spend time in a Russian village which has no rugby going on, that would be flagged for investigation.

    The process in use here was formulated after the majority of international and national sports federations and associations (including the BWF and the BKA) agreed to it.

    Yes, the athlete has to provide a general contactable location for every day of the next three months - but then, this isn't very challenging as these are active sportspersons who usually stick to a rigid training schedule.

    Additionally, they also need to specify a location where they will be available for just one hour every day between 6am and 11pm.

    That sounds tough, but in actual practice, it isn't.

    Most people provide the 7am to 8am period (the other favourite is 10pm to 11pm) when they are most likely showering or at the gym or still asleep (in other words: at that specified location).

    By the way, it takes three 'whereabouts failures' in 18 months to attract a penalty.
    The athlete you mentioned must have missed the test on two previous occasions.
    I was going to say the opposite. It sounds easy but actually tough in practice.

    Many sports people publicly stated they find it very tough and it feels like you are a prisoner. You fill it out for 3 months in advance but it is not limited to 3 months. It is your whereabouts 7 days a week all year. Athletes travel a lot, flights get delayed, traffic gets bad on the way from the airport, flight cancellation, driver doesn't show up, you get a pain and need to go see physio instead of being in the training hall, You where just hungry and decided to go grab some food somewhere after training. This system would have to be your main priority in life for it to work and you would have to consider it before doing anything 6am-11pm 365days. Some complain it is against your human rights(eu).

    With regards to how the ped's work I have no idea(so I may be wrong here) but if they can be tested at every tournament (at least 1 per month) then I don't see how that beats the purpose. If the drug is out of the system then it's not enhancing. If it does have that great effect in the 2 weeks in between competition, they should just do "in house" weekly testing @ training. Wada gets notified of this weekly happening then can sit in at any surprise for authenticity.

    This whole big brother tracking system is very severe imo, and extremely easy to be caught out with whereabouts rules.

  12. #29
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    .

    Does BWF/WADA inform the athlete by email? Phone? Text/SMS? Snail mail? In any and all cases, it is simply a matter of taking 5 seconds to insert the appointment into his/her digital calendar/s and forward the appointment notification to his/her trainer/coach/admin. Athletes are actually very organised people- they have to be, to reach the pinnacle of their sport. I cannot believe for even one second that an athlete has a valid excuse for not taking the WADA notification as seriously as his/her next training session.
    They don't notify you that's the point. There is no appointment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    They don't notify you that's the point. There is no appointment.
    I remember reading somewhere that they do. But give only 1 hr advanced notice. That's how that British athlete received the same fate recently because she supposedly got stuck in traffic trying to get there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post

    ...

    The process in use here was formulated after the majority of international and national sports federations and associations (including the BWF and the BKA) agreed to it.

    Yes, the athlete has to provide a general contactable location for every day of the next three months - but then, this isn't very challenging as these are active sportspersons who usually stick to a rigid training schedule.

    ....
    thanks.

    so, athletes update the information once every three months?

    but i assume they can amend the information after they are submitted, right?

  15. #32
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by visor View Post
    I remember reading somewhere that they do. But give only 1 hr advanced notice. That's how that British athlete received the same fate recently because she supposedly got stuck in traffic trying to get there.

    That's not true. The international standard for testing states that no advanced warning is to be given. (exceptions are there for minors etc).

    I am not sure if you are referring to the athlete I had talked about But i think they called her when they arrived because it's big stadium so she tried to get there before the hour was out. (sure that's what she said on a talk show). Might not be same one, as you said recently but it was 7+years ago.
    The rules changed in 2009. Maybe before then there was notice given, but not if memory serves me.

  16. #33
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pcll99 View Post
    thanks.

    so, athletes update the information once every three months?

    but i assume they can amend the information after they are submitted, right?
    I pretty sure you can hit them up with a text any time before the hour to notify a schedule change. So if you know what your schedule was that had been input in their system and Wada's number on speed dial, there shouldn't be a problem ever. The thought of Wada and a copy of your stated schedule would have to be in your head at all times though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by craigandy View Post
    This happened to a British athlete called Christine Ohuruogu. Her last test date was missed due to a double booking by the stadium she normally trains. She rearranged to train somewhere else for the day totally last minute on the other side of London and forgot to phone the testing body to tell them(probably not on your mind at all). Per chance the tester turned up on this very day. They called her when they arrived, she tried to high tail it across the city to catch them in time but they just left.
    Who of you could account for exactly where you are going to be at all times? It's just a ridiculous concept.

    Why not just test them regularly at competitions and stick to that???? That's the only time it matters anyway.
    My understanding is most of the doping is done during training to build up the muscles to be used in competition. They need to recover quickly in training to build up the muscles. These drugs help them train harder and longer.
    So during competition - they are rarely on the drugs.

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