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  1. #1
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    Default hitting the bird vs pushing the bird

    For drops and net shots, I find it's much better to "catch" the bird and push it over the net rather than actually hitting it. I wish someone told me sooner.

    Advantages of pushing:
    - far better accuracy, espcially for hugging the net (less likely to hit the net or go too high.)
    - tighter trajectory (lands closer to the net.)
    - easier to use decpetion and move the bird in unsuspecting directions


    I discovered it quite accidentally while watching the better players play. I'm not sure if they realize it or not... they use the word "hit" when they are clearly "pushing" the bird.

    I better define the term first:
    Hitting the bird relies upon the bounce of the string to propel the bird. Hitting a bird with a very high tension string (think ping pong paddle) will produce less speed/force.

    Pushing the bird relies upon the movement of the entire racquet. High tension strings (lets use ping pong paddle again) would produce more speed/power.

    The difference is that since the racquet is moving slowly, the trampoline effect will actually rob the stroke of power. But power isn't important here. Because the trampoline effect depends highly upon where the bird lands on the racquet and its tension there, it's unpredictable. By avoiding this trampoline effect, you get much better accuracy.

    The control of a given tension is a lot more noticable to me when pushing rather than hitting.


    I haven't seen a discussion on this in terms of pushing and hitting before. What are your thoughts on this? Does it match up with your own experiences? Do you push or hit at the net and when dropping?


    On a side note, do you push or hit during serves? Hit seems to be better for backhanders while push is better for underhanders.

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    There are three fundamental hitting actions in badminton: push, tap and whip. The whip action is an unrestrained motion such as a smash. The tap motion stops the foward movement of the racket at impact, causing a "snap" with the wrist; tap actions characteristally involve uncocking the wrist.

    If you are using a tap action to hit delicate shots, then your accuracy will suffer. The push action, which *never* uncocks the wrist, gives much beter control. You should use a push action for all low (not drive) serves, though obviously you can turn it into a flick serve by tapping instead at the last moment.

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    not 100% clear on your definition.

    can i say, hitting is drawing an arc with the racket head by pivoting over wrist/arm/etc.

    while pushing is when the racket/handle are moved in a more parallel fashion?

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    My backhand low serve is supposed to be a push, but if I don't concentrate it tends towards a tap. My forehand low serve is a push.

    When you say drop shots, do you mean overhead from the rear court, or from below net height from mid to rear court?

    Overhead drop shots from the rear court I play the same as clears and smashes, the final forward motion of the racquet is slower though.

    From below net height, I had never really thought about it, but I think they tend towards a push unless I am scrambling when it will probably be a swing.
    I think another exception is if I am trying to deceive by showing a push, but then breaking or flicking the wrist to change the direction.

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    Originally posted by Gollum
    There are three fundamental hitting actions in badminton: push, tap and whip. The whip action is an unrestrained motion such as a smash. The tap motion stops the foward movement of the racket at impact, causing a "snap" with the wrist; tap actions characteristally involve uncocking the wrist.

    If you are using a tap action to hit delicate shots, then your accuracy will suffer. The push action, which *never* uncocks the wrist, gives much beter control. You should use a push action for all low (not drive) serves, though obviously you can turn it into a flick serve by tapping instead at the last moment.
    I wish i'd read this quote a few years ago

    Neil, I've never thought about it until recently. I always wondered why not net shots have suffered so much in recent years... looks like unconsciously changing from push to tap was the answer.

    btw Kwun, i think his definition might be clearer.
    Last edited by bigredlemon; 02-27-2004 at 10:33 AM.

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    Yes, I sometimes "push" the shuttles over the net without "knowing" it
    I found that, if I swing a little lighter and slower (doing a push), and the shuttle seemed to be more controlable few years ago. So, I have decided to do it sometimes, but wasn't sure if that violates the rules of not. Now I guess I will do it more often then after reading above posts. Cool!

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    Just came across this thread from earlier in the year & decided to reply to it just to get it active again cuz the subject seems very worthwhile. While I'm at it, I'll throw in my 2 cents (or any other [nearly] worthless currency)...

    Taps can be performed primarily with finger action... the wrist may uncock to some extent, but it is the fingers that really provide the impetus in this case.

    Mid-court pushes can be very effective against doubles teams in an up/back formation. Many players drive the shuttle to the backcourt when a mid-court push can often provide better results... this push might have the back opponent lifting the shuttle rather than staying in control of the rally.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bigredlemon
    For drops and net shots, I find it's much better to "catch" the bird and push it over the net rather than actually hitting it. I wish someone told me sooner.
    Is this action legal? In tennis it's not legal to "catch" the ball on the racket.

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    Default As long as it ain't stuck

    Fault is called if


    13.6 if, in play, the shuttle:

    13.6.1 is caught and held on the racket and then slung during the execution of a stroke;

    13.6.2 is hit twice in succession by the same player with two strokes;

    I'm a bit wary about it too, but with a different example...

    A friend of mine can do "tumbling net drops". I don't know if that's the right terminology... but it's where the bird, rather than going head first followed by the skirt and spinning along it's centerline axis, it rather spins "forward", head-skirt-head-skirt sorta way.

    Anyway, the way that he does this is that he does a low velocity u-shaped slice on the bird, first "catching" the bird, then applying spin. What he warned me about though is to make sure that the "catch" part is done as quickly as possible... not in such a way as to cause crazy repulsion, but just enough so that you won't be called on a fault.

    My own net shots use what seems like the "pushes" being talked about, based on their descriptions... I think that largely, it's pretty hard to be called for fault if you hit it with a regular stroke (all be it a slow one) because the perpendicularity of the racket face, no matter how slow, will usually provide a clean repulsion, even if a nice controlled soft one.

    Mostly, it's when we get into the slicing and the "u-strokes" that it gets a bit more ambiguous... but as long as it's relatively fast enough, i don't think it will be called a fault.

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    Hmm. On that note, is a slice then sorta a half-push, half-tap, half-hit?

    ..... 1/2 +1/2 +1/2 = ......1?

    Guess it depends on what kind of slice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jinryu
    Hmm. On that note, is a slice then sorta a half-push, half-tap, half-hit?
    ..... 1/2 +1/2 +1/2 = ......1?
    Guess it depends on what kind of slice.
    A slice is a slice. I mean, I suppose you can turn any shot into a slice, so I yes technically there's a slice variation of each possible shot.

    But I don't think you'll be hearing the terms "push slice" and "tap slice" any time soon.
    Last edited by alhabib; 12-10-2004 at 11:33 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpc1l
    Is this action legal? In tennis it's not legal to "catch" the ball on the racket.
    you really don't need to "catch" the ball to give it the effect of as described by Jinryu. take a look at Peter Gade's (vs Taufik Athens 2004) net shots (the hairpins). Nasty shot (I saw Taufik misjudging a hairpin drop that clipped the net and still went in).

    When I hit the ball, the racket is still (ever so slightly) going forward (with the racket head already angled) thus generating the "tumbling" effect. I think this also kills the momentum and speed of the ball, making the hairpin or any drop just barely clear the net.

    This tumbling effect also gauges how good my midcourt drop is. If i see (in my peripheral vision) that when i to a drop from the midcourt that it somewhat tumbles in the air I am assured that the shot will land close to the net of the my opponet's court. If there's no apparent tumble I know I mishit my drop shot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpc1l
    Is this action legal? In tennis it's not legal to "catch" the ball on the racket.
    I think that the word "catch" was put in quotes for a good reason. Don't think that he meant catch in quite the way that you are thinking. An obvious catching (& slinging) of a shuttle in badminton or a ball in tennis is, of course, not legal. Note, however, that shuttle or ball is on the strings of the racket for some finite (but very short) time... the strings give a bit and the shuttle cork or the tennis ball compresses as contact is made. This contact time is dependent on the string tension, the part of the stringbed contacted, composition (& elasticity) of the cork or ball, the incoming speed of the shuttle/ball, and the way (manner & speed) the stroke is executed.

    Perhaps if a very high-speed analysis was employed, many shot might seem like catches or slings at the micro level (micro, in terms of time). However at the macro level an obvious catch & sling is not allowed.

    A little aside: Setting the ball in volleyball involves a very brief catch & throw. However if the catch & throw duration is too long, it becomes very obvious and the set is considered illegal. I believe that outdoor beach has less stringent requirements than indoor v'ball.
    Last edited by SystemicAnomaly; 12-11-2004 at 07:39 AM.

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    Default Tumbling shuttles

    Quote Originally Posted by Jinryu

    A friend of mine can do "tumbling net drops". I don't know if that's the right terminology... but it's where the bird, rather than going head first followed by the skirt and spinning along it's centerline axis, it rather spins "forward", head-skirt-head-skirt sorta way.

    Anyway, the way that he does this is that he does a low velocity u-shaped slice on the bird, first "catching" the bird, then applying spin. What he warned me about though is to make sure that the "catch" part is done as quickly as possible... not in such a way as to cause crazy repulsion, but just enough so that you won't be called on a fault.
    The tumbling action can usually be induced to greater degree with nylon shuttles than with feather. A feather shuttle tends to right itself sooner in a tumbling situation cuz it is usually more head-heavy (cork-heavy) than is a nylon shuttle.

    This is also part of the reason that a feather shuttle makes a cleaner pop! on hard-hit shots than does a nylon shuttle. There are actually several factors at work here. I think that the initial speed of the feather shuttle as it has just left the stringbed is usually faster than that of a nylon bird (however, the feather shuttle usually experiences more of a braking action or deceleration as it continues its flight than does a nylon shuttle that is hit in a similar manner).

    The feather shuttle probably has a quicker turn-around time when it first comes off the racket so it does not "catch as much air". The shuttle will be travelling with the cork trailing for a very short time before it turns around. If it is true that a nylon shuttle has a slower turn-around time then it will tend to "catch more air".

    On a hard-hit shot, the skirt of a nylon shuttle also deforms differently than does the feathers on a real shuttle. Feather tend to become more streamlined (the skirt becomes a bit narrower) when it first comes of the racket on a hard-hit shot. However, the nylon shuttle on such a shot deforms in a much different manner... the skirt distorts in a way that make generates more drag initially. This would make the initial speed coming off the racket less for a nylon shuttle than for a feather one. Once the nylon shuttle has turned around & the distortion has diminished, the braking action on a "fast" nylon shuttle is less pronounced that it is for the feather shuttle.
    Last edited by SystemicAnomaly; 12-11-2004 at 08:18 AM.

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    SystemicAnomaly makes perceptive points. The rules try to draw a definite distinction between a legal and illegal action, but in reality there is a continuum of actions; towards one end of the continuum is a clearly illegal shot, and towards the other end is a clearly legal shot.

    Fortunately, due to the mechanics of hitting a shot, most shots are either clearly legal or clearly illegal - it is difficult to play a shot that falls in the middle of the continuum. But it is not impossible, and therefore the need for judgement cannot be eliminated when interpretting the rules (as is the case with almost any set of rules).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    SystemicAnomaly makes perceptive points. The rules try to draw a definite distinction between a legal and illegal action, but in reality there is a continuum of actions; towards one end of the continuum is a clearly illegal shot, and towards the other end is a clearly legal shot.

    Fortunately, due to the mechanics of hitting a shot, most shots are either clearly legal or clearly illegal - it is difficult to play a shot that falls in the middle of the continuum. But it is not impossible, and therefore the need for judgement cannot be eliminated when interpretting the rules (as is the case with almost any set of rules).
    Very good... yours is a very astute observation as well.

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