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  1. #18
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    Originally posted by Gollum
    Come on Cooler, there's little doubt that feather shuttles have superior flight characteristics and "feel" compared with plastics They are not just a status symbol. How do you think the professionals would react if the IBF forced them to switch to plastics?

    That said, there are many high-standard clubs who play with plastics, for reasons of economy. But feathers are clearly better if you have the money.
    you miss the point of my post.
    it is just one standard been adopted by IBF.
    How does feather flight is superior or better feel? Can u reverse the statement and say how come feather can't imitate the flight of a plastic shuttle? I would say feather do have more variables that can be manipulated. .

    How do you think the professionals would react if the IBF forced them to switch to plastics
    Same as asking all the chinese replace their rice staple with bread. Of course they dont like it because they are so use to it. Is rice really superior to bread?? If money is no object, i'll eat pearl pink rice hand washed with mountain spring water and cooked with 500 USD rice cooker, and use AS-50 shuttles too. A standard is just a standard. If pros uses plastic in tournaments and lose, his opponent uses plastic nylon too. So was the lost due to poor skill in plastic or just poor skill in adapting to change? If the purse prize remain the same, i bet the pros won't complain as every other players are subject to the same standard. Would u buy the excuse if the pros says he played lousy and lost because of using plastic in his match? Have you heard any pros blaming his lost because his/her opponents have better racquets and shoes?
    Last edited by cooler; 03-05-2004 at 05:36 PM.

  2. #19
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    Robert L (there are actually two Robert L at the club but it being a Thursday, I would assume that it is the older Robert L that you talking about) is good (uses Winex) . Surprising he prefers nylon birds over feathers as he thinks the nylons are more consistent from one to the next as compared to feathers

    yes, in previous threads, i have pointed out that one advantage of nylon (plastic) is consistency. In many tournaments i had witness time consumed to test all feather shuttles. If the flight is so superior, why all this testing? In some matches, some players still have complaint on feather shuttles used - too fast or too slow. You have zillion brands and each have dozen grades. In plastic, i play with mavis 300, same as 99% of the clubs, same as 99.99% of the plastic shuttle tournaments.

    The flight and feel of feather shuttle degrade right after the first hit. How superior is that?
    Last edited by cooler; 03-05-2004 at 05:55 PM.

  3. #20
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    No Cooler, I did not miss the point of your post. It's just that I disagree with you completely!

    Okay, so feathers are "just another standard adopted by the IBF". So is the height of the net, the court dimensions, the restrictions on rackets, the service laws.......

    Presumably if it's only a standard, we can replace any of these things. And while you're at it, why not replace shuttlecocks with small beach-balls?

    Feather shuttles DO have different flight characteristics. For example, when hit with a high lift shot, feather shuttles will travel to the top of their flight arc before dropping almost vertically to the floor. Plastics don't do this - they follow a more parabolic path. You may not agree with the comments on the superior "touch" or "feel" of feathers (though you'd get strange looks at most decent clubs if you denied this), but the difference in flight on a lift shot can be observed objectively. Just try it out yourself!

    Sounds to me like you have an inferiority complex because you always play with plastics, and some people look down on you for this. That's not the right attitude - the quality of the player has nothing to do with what type of shuttle he uses.

    You mentioned "snobbery" in your first post. Ever heard of something called inverted snobbery?

  4. #21
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    hehehe....one good thing about plastics is that they don't go weird if a feather is hit

  5. #22
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    Too true. I almost always play with plastics for casual games with friends, since I know they will mishit the shuttle too much to allow feathers to last more than a few rallies.

  6. #23
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    Originally posted by Gollum
    No Cooler, I did not miss the point of your post. It's just that I disagree with you completely!

    Okay, so feathers are "just another standard adopted by the IBF". So is the height of the net, the court dimensions, the restrictions on rackets, the service laws.......

    Presumably if it's only a standard, we can replace any of these things. And while you're at it, why not replace shuttlecocks with small beach-balls?

    Feather shuttles DO have different flight characteristics. For example, when hit with a high lift shot, feather shuttles will travel to the top of their flight arc before dropping almost vertically to the floor. Plastics don't do this - they follow a more parabolic path. You may not agree with the comments on the superior "touch" or "feel" of feathers (though you'd get strange looks at most decent clubs if you denied this), but the difference in flight on a lift shot can be observed objectively. Just try it out yourself!

    Sounds to me like you have an inferiority complex because you always play with plastics, and some people look down on you for this. That's not the right attitude - the quality of the player has nothing to do with what type of shuttle he uses.

    You mentioned "snobbery" in your first post. Ever heard of something called inverted snobbery?
    let's get this straight gollum, i called u snobbish because u first labelled all plastic players are not true badminton players.

    second, u now said i got inferiority complex. Then i would said you got superiority complex which go hand in hand with your snobbish atittude. I just need a game or 2 for adjustment of either kind of shuttles. So you only play plastic with less skilled players, isnt that self proclaimed snobbish and superiority attitude? (Hmm , i thought u never had played with plastic shuttle before??)

    Thirdly, you are wrong on another point, i don't alway play plastic. This way i am proficient in both feather and plastic.

    Fourthly, different flight profile don't equates to superior flight profile. Of course i know full well of feather flight profile. I dont need your lesson in aerodynamics. Obviously u didnt understood my previous although u claim to be and that is why you continue to ask that feather flight profile can't not be matched by a nylon shuttle flight profile. Didn't I have said to you in several posts ago how come a feather shuttle can't imitate (or matched ) a plastic shuttle flight profile. You answer my question first before i answers your.

    Obviously u have poor sense of judgement, comparing shuttles with beach ball. I dont want to dwell on this because i think readers here got an idea of your menality and your superior use of logics.
    Last edited by cooler; 03-06-2004 at 03:28 PM.

  7. #24
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    Default sorry

    I think the discussion is going to a wrong direction. It was me who said plastics was less enjoyable and not real badminton. I concluded it because I play feathers from the very day I touched badminton for the first time. It was about 12 years ago. and I do feel less enjoyable when playing plastics with friends. BUT it doesn't mean I have a contempt for those people who play badminton with plastics. In other words, I dont like playing football. does it mean I dont like people who play football? of course no. Anyway, I am terribly sorry if anybody was offended by my words. I didn't mean it. I am sorry for my poor english, I cant use english as accurately as you guys. I am still working hard on improving my english.

  8. #25
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    Then, go back to the discussion. Let's discuss it in a friendly way. I am not an expert of the very technical areas such as flight characteristics. But I think since IBF chooses feathers as the standard, feathers must have some advantages over plastics. It's not just a long carried tradition. IBFers are not idiots, they know what the most suitable for badminton is.
    Last edited by weekey; 03-06-2004 at 04:50 PM.

  9. #26
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    Steady on Cooler! It seems that I've touched a nerve. Your angry reaction confirms my former guess: you are fed up with "feather players" telling you that "plastic players" are inferior. This is not my opinion; don't attribute it to me!

    let's get this straight gollum, i called u snobbish because u first labelled all plastic players are not true badminton players.
    Actually, I never said this, and I disagree with it totally. Check your facts, fool!

    So you only play plastic with less skilled players, isnt that self proclaimed snobbish and superiority attitude?
    No, it is personal preference. I prefer to use feather shuttles when I'm playing properly, because I prefer the feel of them and I believe it is better to train my skills with them. In fact, I occasionally play with plastics with very skilled players, because that is what some clubs use.

    Less skilled players will mishit the shuttle a lot more than skilled players. When I play with very low-skill players, I won't use feather shuttles because they will be destroyed in a few rallies.

    It's time for you to remove that chip on your shoulder

    i think readers here got an idea of your menality and your superior use of logics.
    I'm glad we can agree on one thing: my use of logic is superior to yours Not too surprising given I've studied logic for 4 years.
    Last edited by Gollum; 03-06-2004 at 05:20 PM.

  10. #27
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    Default Re: sorry

    Originally posted by weekey
    Anyway, I am terribly sorry if anybody was offended by my words. I didn't mean it. I am sorry for my poor english, I cant use english as accurately as you guys. I am still working hard on improving my english.
    Don't worry about it weekey...it's all part of the fun of international boards like this one.

    Let's just say that your use of "fortunately", together with "shocking", could be interpreted by some as "being happy not to have to play in such inferior conditions".

    To my North American sense at least, "shocking" carries condescending overtones, whereas "surprised" or even "amazed" would have been more neutral.

    BTW, Cooler, having a superiority "complex" means exactly that, i.e. one is truly superior and feels bad about it. You probably meant a "feeling of superiority".
    It works the other way around too: inferiority complex and feeling of inferiority.

    Cheers,

    Mike

  11. #28
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    wrong conclusion, i dont have any chip on my shoulder. I carry both plastic and feather shuttles in my bag and i do play both kind with either skilled and less skilled players. You modified your disclosure several times here. First u said u use plastic with less skilled players because of your reason that less skilled players destroy feather shuttle quicker. Later u said u also play plastic with skilled players too. Come on, make up your mind or u r saying things to suit the tune of the moment?

    I'm only defending other plastic players that told me that they couldn't get to play with better players which usually use feather shuttles. I know and played with everyone in all the clubs i go to. We decide on the shuttle type and speed before each game. Your view inferiority complex of other people is only in your mind. No one told me, except here in this BF, that plastic players are inferior. I had hightlighted the pluses of playing plastic over feather and u drew conclusion that i played plastic exclusively. LOL
    By assuming and concluding other people like me having inferiority complex that uses plastic, it's not hard to see you yourself have personal bias toward plastic players, even though u didn't make statement directly about it.
    Last edited by cooler; 03-06-2004 at 06:13 PM.

  12. #29
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    Taking It Easy

    Lighten up guys! This thread is only for exchanging ideas. It is turning into a verbal fist fight. It's not the end of the world if someone plays with nylon and another plays with feather.

  13. #30
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    Default Re: Taking It Easy

    Originally posted by Pete LSD
    Lighten up guys! This thread is only for exchanging ideas. It is turning into a verbal fist fight. It's not the end of the world if someone plays with nylon and another plays with feather.
    It's doesnt disturb me Peter, i'm just defending other plastic players who have been put down because their choice of shuttle. I'm just doing my part to support the players who are entering and trying out badminton. These snobbish attitude is one of many barrier that prevent badminton from taking off in north america since majority of players here (North America) use plastic shuttles. I doubt that those beginners who quit badminton dont voice these displeasure and feedback to IBF
    Last edited by cooler; 03-06-2004 at 06:32 PM.

  14. #31
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    Default Players and shuttles

    First, take it easy. There's no point to use very offensive word to support ur idea. Agree or disagree, let's try to control our temper.

    I think the debate starts with "less enjoyable games with plastic shuttles". Personally, I would rather say "plastic shuttle" it's a result of various issues, rather than a reason:

    1. I think weekey mean, less competitve, rather than less enjoy. To a skillful player, seeing his/her much less skillful opponents kept mess up a rally and whacking birds might be frustrated. The solution is, try to join some other clubs, and find another group with fairly close skill range, and enjoy the competitveness. However, reactional club is also "enjoyable", if u go with more social point of view.

    2. I think most recreation clubs using plastic birds, because they have fairly amount of beginners, who do have the proper skills yet. Therefore, durability of equipment (also rackets, etc) should be a very important factor. There's no point to focus on "potential performance" over "durability", if the majority are just first introduced to the game.

    3. High lvl private clubs using feather shuttle might not necessary because they must be "higher class". More or less, this has to do with such players back ground. A lot of them are well trainned back then, and started with feather bird. With high member fee, if the club can afford to provide feather birds, why let the players suffer through the transaction period.

    4. From all the above, I can say, the fact of plastic vs shuttle, it's a way to utlized their own advantage. It's not no point to use the equipment to distinct the skill lvl of players.

  15. #32
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    It may perceived as a minor debate of feather vs plastic, it is the main reason, in my opinion, why badminton had a tough time in north america. We all know badminton was first conceived in India, standardized by the british, and was dominated by American (Canadian and US players) few decades ago. We have postulated reasons that sponsor interest is low, and sponsor say itís low because badminton interest is low - the chicken and the egg corundumn. It is my conclusion that badminton faded away in N.A. because of one main reason, economics.

    I have seen new sports like lacrosse, hockey, soccer that have popularized quickly in N.A. but how come not badminton with longer history and even domination at one time?
    Economic is the reason. How u say, starter racket is relative cheap and shuttle is only 1 to 1.5 USD each? Well, it is the egg problem. In public school system like in N.A., especially with scarce financial resources, administrator looks for ways to cut cost. In school gyms I often go to play in, I see boxes of steel baddy rackets with those cheap translucent nylon strings, all broken, collecting dust. Another box contain plastic shuttles that look like they gone through a shredder. So ask yourself, why would student want to play badminton with those decrepit equipments? Basketball, baseball, volleyball, football (may have high initial cost), bowling ball, soccer ball are all cheap. Schools donít have to buy them every year because these sport equipments can be reused years after years. Therefore, there is no support of badminton right from the ground level, itís the egg.

    I donít want to start a racial debate here or say certain ethnic group is this or that, but I hope u can concur with me that poorer group (in general average context) like the African American (blacks if I may use) excels in those listed sports because the cost of entry is low. Basketball, baseball, football are cheap or free (provided by school) and thatís what they first experienced and play throughout their education ladder. Public basketball courts, tennis courts, baseball diamonds, soccer fields, football fields, etc are readily available and often free.

    Now that those sports become mainstream, it is extremely difficult to break into it and achieve those popular status, even if those mainstream sports become expensive because the lure of being pros is just too great, the cost of hockey equips and golf equips is considered low if u can get your children (or one of them) to achieve pros status and earns millions. Badminton have a tough hill to climb.

    Well, how come china, SE asia countries donít want popular badminton? Because it is a low cost method to buy nationalism by funding their athletes. Funding all of chinaís sport program is peanut compare to say buying one modern jet fighter or a naval destroyer. Which is more effective in nationalism, Olympic gold medals or having 1 fighter jet sitting on the tarmac? There are no incentives for china, SEA to popularize badminton oversea, and losing their propaganda machines. Itís also common sense too, when one dominates something, would u like to relinquish that?

    Yes, I have seen demos and exhibition by pros in shopping malls and school levels. Itís nice, Iím not against that. However, when the public (parents and kids) see pros or elite players uses feather shuttles, those nice synthetic mats, it doesnít help their egos when they go back to school and see none of those. Are school gonna stock tubes and tubes of feather shuttles ? I think not. They find plastic shuttles and steel rackets getting destroyed in jiffy are bad enough. Therefore, THE EGG NEVER GETS TO FERTILIZE. Unless the root cause of the problem can be resolved, the other methods to popularize badminton like buying tv slots, bring pros from foreign countries, flashier apparel, etc might work but it would be slow and expensive.

    It doesn't help either if those players have inferiority complex attitude on people who dont use feather shuttles. It's almost like treason of their own sport
    Last edited by cooler; 03-06-2004 at 08:29 PM.

  16. #33
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    You modified your disclosure several times here. First u said u use plastic with less skilled players because of your reason that less skilled players destroy feather shuttle quicker. Later u said u also play plastic with skilled players
    Once again, you have jumped to conclusions about my opinion because of what you want to think I said! Until you stop this wilful self-deception, and actually read what I said, I find it hard to believe you are not carrying a chip on your shoulder.

    Why? Because that's exactly how people who have that sort of problem always behave. They always prejudge anyone who inflames their sensitivity - as I have inflamed yours. Simply because I said that feathers are better, you attributed to me the view that feather players are better than plastic players, or that plastic players are not "proper" badminton players. How many times do I have to deny this opinion?

    If you actually read what I said, I never claimed that I only play plastics with less skilled players. It is true that, most of the time, I play feathers with skilled players. That's because most skilled players, including myself, prefer to play feathers.

    I can think of a particular club here that has a very high standard (e.g. the junior county champion plays there), but uses plastics. When I go there, I play plastics too, since that is what the club uses. Incidentally, this club also has a low ceiling.

    Now, if you don't mind, I'm off to play some social badminton with mostly low-skill players. And I'm going to use plastics, because my feather shuttles are too good for them

  17. #34
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    Whoa... this is gettin pretty heated...
    u guys r thinking TOO MUCH!!!

    Here's lik the best conclusion:

    Plastic: Hit it hard
    Feather: Hit it HARDER!!!

    ps. If it goes out... then... well... too bad

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