Strenth Training

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by Chia, Mar 6, 2004.

  1. Chia

    Chia Regular Member

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    Besides technique i think strength training is absolutely essential to a badminton player.. If you scared having big muscles will slow u down on the court, take a look at CHen Hong. That guy has the biggest legs i've ever seen.. Take a look at lin, this guy is buff..
     

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  2. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    his muscles do not look very big at all. His lats and traps are completely missing. His shoulder and arms are flat rather round. His pecs are alright at best, though i don't see how useful that will be in badminton. He has good abs, though nothing exciting. He's just creating an illusion of strength by having a very low bodyfat percentage so that there's no fat to hide the muscles. If average drop BFer were to instant drop their BF% down to his levels, they would have just as much muscles showing. Well he's definetly got an impressive build, i wouldn't say it has incredible strength. Some of the strongest guys tend to have much higher bodyfat percentages because it's easier to build up muscle with fat than to build just muscle.
     
  3. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    Would you say that it is also easier for the muscle guys with more fat deposit to go the other way? If they can build bigger muscles from the fat deposit they get, they can also get fatter from the bigger muscles.

    Pete
     
  4. cooler

    cooler Regular Member

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    hmm, i don't think chen hong has big legs.

    http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=13382
     
  5. reaper

    reaper Regular Member

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    I agree with bigredlemon on that point. Lin Dan's muscles do not look spectacular, they are just solid and his body fat is 4-5%, I am guessing. Another thing, yesterday, a fitness trainer at my club saw Chen Hong play and commented that Chen's legs are not big at all. In his exact words, "that guy does not have spectacular legs, he just has extremely low body fat and is very conditioned". Chen is just conditioned and has low body fat, making his legs seem huge when it is just his quad and flexors are defined very well.
     
  6. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    It's easier for a skinny guy to gain lots of muscle as compared to a fat guy. But to gain the most amount of muscle possible, one would have to eat a lot. The muscle growth is accompanied by fat growth. To grow just muscles and not fat, one would have to eat just above maintance calories. This results in muscle growth without looking fat, but the muscle growth is less than otherwise possible by eating more.
     
  7. Pete LSD

    Pete LSD Regular Member

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    So, to get really big muscles one need to eat a lot. Are protein supplements actually safe? I was told that eating a lot is only half the answer. One would need to take protein supplement after each intensive workout. I also hear that it is at your own risk type of thing. I get friends who take protein supplements and develop acnes.

    Is it possible to have so much bulk and yet really fast in badminton? I think we discussed this before with a famous American Football Player as an example. The guy is huge and yet very agile and quick.
     
    #7 Pete LSD, Mar 6, 2004
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2004
  8. Chia

    Chia Regular Member

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    I am not talking bodybuilder type mass, but they do have some muscle mass. We all know these guys strength train. Thats the point i am trying to make, that strength training is important if u want to better your game.

    4 to 5% bodyfat is almost unreachable.. the best bodybuilders in the world only go down to like 6 or 7 i believe, correct me if i am wrong.. and those guys probably care more about bodyfat than badminton players.

    chen hong must have powerful legs to propel him to heights that only he is able to achieve. How can u guys say that he is born like this, its obvious it takes hard work coming from strength training his legs. They looked pretty big to me when i was watching a video of him, and the commentator even said that he had huge legs. And that pic of Chen hong he wasent even flexing his legs, how could u judge his legs by that. Its like showing your abs without flexing it, u cant tell how big it truely is.
     
  9. Chia

    Chia Regular Member

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    that is false. So what your saying is that people can eat junk food all day to just above the maintance calories, and they will not gain fat but muscles. The food u consume has to be healthy, and provide esential nutrients.. u just cant eat 10 big mac's and assume there is gonna be muscle growth.
    Protein consumption is whats gonna give you muscle growth. For bodybuilders, they eat 1.5x grams of protein per pound.
     
  10. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    all things equal of course. You can't compare someone eating 3000 cals of cookies a day and sit in front of the computer all day versus someone eating 5000 calories cleanly and lifting heavy. I could go through a long list of requirements for getting lean or cut, but what would be the point of that? We were talking about why it's a particular person would be stronger if he wasn't as lean.

    Ps. what exactly is false about what i said? Are suggesting that growing muscles without the accompanied fat increase would require eating much more than just above maintaince? (no, because you'll get more fat relative to muscle.) Same as maintaince? (you'll get more strength but experience muscle and fat loss, or at best, maintaince of the amount of muscle you do have--that's definition of maintaince calories.) If less than maintaince, then you'll lose both fat and muscle.
    If you suggesting my second point is wrong, the converse would imply that eating more food results in less muscle gain. That does not make sense either.

    ps. burgers are not junk food per se. If there's anything i've learned, it's that no food is good or bad per se, but when and why you eat it makes it bad.

    pps. look at the muscles of the guy you posted. Flat indeed. He has the typical build of a endurance athlete. If you do a google search for *strength* atheletes, you will notice most of them are fat-looking compared to him. And yet they have the strength of ten typical BFers
     
    #10 bigredlemon, Mar 6, 2004
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2004
  11. JChen99

    JChen99 Regular Member

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    Pete, there is a difference between protein shakes and "supplements" Those who develop acnes are taking "supplements" which are usually mimic steroids. Protein shakes are nothing more than just like eating a lot of meat without the fat. But you have to beware, if you're drinking protein shakes... make sure u empty your bowel as frequently as possible... cuz if you dont... the gas produced really STINKS! :p
     
  12. Chia

    Chia Regular Member

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    whey protein is simply protein that is found in milk.. since milk is composed of 85% casin protein and 15% whey protein. Whey is fast digesting protein and casin on the other hand is not, so thats why people use whey directly after workouts.
     
  13. Chia

    Chia Regular Member

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    ps. i was talking about big mac's which contain 400 calories each i believe.

    I am just stating that u can't just gain muscles by just eating "a little bit above the mantainence level". Theres soo much more than calories, to worry about when your gaining muscles. the maintence level is somewere around 2100 cals a day or something, not really sure. But if your work out, and eat 2200 cals of bread, veggies, and no protein, no essential vitamins what so ever.. you cant gain muscle. I think u probably dont have enough calories either to trigger muscle growth.

    And when u said that all the strongest guys are big. Where did i say "badminton players are the strongest" or something like that. You can do strenth training with lower weights, and maybe more reps for that toned look and endurance. My first post was not completely correct when i said they were "buff", i was probably exagerating a bit. I apologize for that.
     
    #13 Chia, Mar 6, 2004
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2004
  14. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    Lin Dan's body is typical of today's top singles players. There is very little fat, simply because the modern men's singles game would have eliminated anybody with a body like, say Agassi's in tennis. Go and watch a major tournament and look at the bodies of the very top singles players when they change shirts. Better still, at the end of the tournament, when the players are leaving, catch them on their way out and chat with them and observe their physique close up.
    In the recent Asian zone round in Malaysia, almost all the Chinese players could be seen having supper at the Jalan Alor hawkers stalls late at night, and amazingly on every night, and some of us did chat with them. The Thais and Taiwanese were frequent visitors too. They are quite tall, lanky, without an oz of extra fat or even the pumped-up muscle of the bodybuilder type. I believe the type of body shape they develop is shaped by the level and frequency of top singles matches they play.
    At lower levels of singles play you do find some bulky fellows. But never at the very top levels.
     
  15. kwun

    kwun Administrator

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    yes. i think efficiency is the key here. more fat is inefficient, and too much bulky muscle is also inefficient.

    more muscles is better in terms of power and smash, but at the same time, one need to carry those extra mass around, there is a dimishing return after a certain amount of muscles. and from looking at the current top player, we can see the optimal level for a singles player.
     
  16. Russ7

    Russ7 Regular Member

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    actually "a fat guy" would have an easier time gaining muscle because of his genetics (endomorphs easily gain muscle but can't shed fat easily). An ectomorph(skinny) has an easy time losing weight but a hard time gaining muscle/weight. And there is more to it than eating just above maintenance calories. You need to eat clean and IT ALL HAS TO DO WITH GENETICS.

    Oh yeah and on topic, that guy in the picture is a runt... At least compared to me :D.
     
  17. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    maintaince calories vary alot depending on the person. I've calculated mine out to be close to 3700ish cals. For regular players of badminton, I doubt 2200 will do it.

    Also, I said gaining the most amount of muscles requires eating a lot. I did not saying growing muscles require only eating a lot.

    I did not say that you said badminton players are the strongest. I said the strongest people tend to have higher bodyfat percentage than the lean muscle-bound looking people that look stronger.
     
  18. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    I agree with your conclusion but not your reasoning. The reason they have no fat is not because fat would too badly hurt their performance (although it will) but because the large amount of practice and training an elite player must go through requires eating insanely large amount of foods, and their bodies are incapable of digesting that much food. A lot of tennis players look anorexic for the same reason. A lot top tennis players complain of this all the time.

    As for getting the basics from shakes (whey and casein for protein, maltodextrin for carbs, flax/fish oil for fat), that can only get them so far. Processed foods like those are not poor substitutes for the real thing, and elite atheletes simply cannot eat enough of the real thing (and still eat cleanly.)
     
  19. bigredlemon

    bigredlemon Regular Member

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    True in theory but not in practice. A fat guy will gain weight more easily than a skinny guy, but a fat body is predisposed to gain fat rather than muscle when he eats above maintance. And genetics does matter, alot.

    The idea BBer is an endomorph, but not any fat endomoporph. It's an enomoph that's been cutting until he reaches an unaturally low bodyfat %. (unanatural for him, anyway.) When he becomes skinny, he'll be able to gain muscle with little fat, much like the ectomorph, but to a greater degree.
     
  20. Russ7

    Russ7 Regular Member

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    I thought it was mesomorph... I am a bodybuilder by the way. 16 years old 170 lbs 5'8".... Pretty lean too. I'm a mesomorph. I've gained 40 lbs since last year and I noticed that it has slowed me down in badminton... but I can hit the bird alot harder. All I use is whey protein.
     

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