Tricky China

deception read.

u got my drift It's almost impossible diagnosis neck, wrist and ankle 'injuries' accurately, hehehe

3. injuries are harder to dispute by official than throwing games on the mat

 

Ok, let me make myself clear first, personally, I am a little bit sick and tired to read all the articles about "CHN strategy" etc. I agree some of the "mystery" might be invloved with "strategy" or "human" factors, but:

1. Why we only pick on the CHN, especially the WD? More of less, I have to say it involves some sort of "sore loser" feeling from other competitors or organizations. Why? Because they can't win, period. Why don't they pick on other players from other nations?

1.1 Ra: Many times, Ra took "easy" in WD, and focus on XD. As in Swiss Open, Ra got a blown out in WD against CHN, then, went on to win XD. Why no one bring up any questions on this?

1.2 Peter Gade: When he first came back, his condition was terrible. I forgot in which tourny, MS players from Den either lost to him easily or WO. Did anyone raise up any questions?

1.3 Harlim Brothers: Hafiz and Roslin put on a "show", and one went on to the next round. Even themselves and particular teammate said, well, let the one get better chances advances... Did IBF bann them or fine them?

1.4 How u determine how hard a player tried? I mean, if u ask me against Chen Hong, I can say I fight harder than Xia, and I can say I dive on every rally, but I don't think I can get 1 point, or hold on for more than 2 min. Using the result to say Yang/Zhang did not fight "hard enough" is stupid and ridiculous.

1.4.1. Martin, Mia both got 0:11 against Zhang Ning in WC. Mia got another 0:11 against Gong after 1st set of 11:13 in Swiss Open. By Yang/Zhang's case, IBF should bann them right away. But how come I did not see any actions? Just because they are not in CHN???

1.5 True winners should fully anticipate all hard fight, but not complain their opponents getting easier treatment in the previous round. Players like Martin, Susi are not new for fighting through the CHN mighty lady army to capture the title. They are more recongnized as the legend, the true winner, rather than whinners.

2. I have to say, for professional elites, every single one has some injuries, which bothers them every day and night. It's a matter whether they want to give up the current match or not. Most time, they choose to put on a fight. However, if they choose to give up, we will see fans putting on this and that "guess" against them, especially when they give up to a teammate / pair. To the fans, that's cheating. To them, they need a rest. Take the rest when the victory does not mean too much for themselves, or at least, to the whole team.

3. Use a doctor to diagnosis. To me, this is a joke. I know this coach, who's an ex CHN XD player. I told him about our concerns about using doctor notes for injuries. He laughed so much, and told me the following. If IBF really get an expert (for athletes, not for ordinary ppl), he should be able to excuse everyone from the tourny. Why? Everyone has serious injuries, which could be aggrevated in a desperated move. He claimed many players, including himself has serious injuries in the joints, which could be a serious problem in later life. He even claim some ex national players, had to spend rest of their lives on wheel chairs after they retired. I wonder how good an expert will dare to take such responsibility to take a risk and force elites to play, even if the elites claim s/he is not comfortable.

So, put all the whinning aside, let the skill do the talk. The gold medal belongs to the ones work the hardest, but NOT the ones crying the most.

 

(agree with LB)


If you dont have slight injuries as a professional athlete, you are not trying hard enough. As a professional, dedicated to your sport, you should plan to get to retirement age, then your body fall apart. Only that way can you say has someone tried as hard as they can.

Personally I think Xia could be accused of not trying hard enough at some point in every game. Take the jonassen game in wc, for long periods of the game he looked like he was messing around.

I think if you can allow players to walk through matches easy, then do it, it is in your teams best intrest.

you could argue that as the WD pairs are almost there in there qualifying then they should not need to enter the tournaments, but if they didnt enter, this may mena there opponents have easier qulifying, better make there opponents work and worry about qualification as much as possible.


|In WD it probably is just sour grapes as the top 4 are CHN, and a long way ahead of everyone (even ra/lee)-IMO

 

1. Kept whinning but could not provide any solid evidence (not just, I guess from the the final result... I think they should be better than 3:11....) or whinning about losing the match is not sportmship, either.

2. Effort from other players. If they train harder with better method, they can beat CHN. Ask Susi, Martin (when she's young), Kim/Ra, etc... CHN players are not naturally born as a group of legends.

3. Upsetting badminton fans? I know fans want every set to be deuce, see 5 hrs of hard fight, but that's not the case all the time. U paid $$$, does not mean u will see the "battle of the century" guaranteed.

3.1 If IBF wants to bann, bann Martin, Mia first. As my previous post, they both got 0:11 result in WC and/or Swiss Open. For former champions, don't tell me they are that much away from Zhang or Gong.

3.2 Same as in my previous post, result could not 100% accurate reflect the effort. Gong trashed some poor lady 11:0 in 8 min. What that to say? Bann the other player, she definitely did not even let the fans warm up their seats yet.

To me, $$$ means good show, or "give equal oppotunity" for all players is just whinners talk... I am not using this statement to against any particular individual, but just say, "welcome to the real world..."

 

Poor CHN WD

After all the "stories", "guess", "fines", "accuse" etc, I find out there no way the CHN WD pairs could be "clean" or "good", why?

1. If they lose easily to others: they suck, they disappoint their fans

2. If they lose to their teammates:

2.1 If they lose "easily" (not even just 1 set or 2 points): TEAM strategy.

2.2 If they lose "hard": Well, u know, they got finned, they just acting...

3. If they win the title: Yeah, yeah, their teammates won before, it's their "turn" to boost up their ranking...

4. If they "WO": You see, even worse this time, we can't get our tickets worth...


Give me a break, what u want these 3, 4 pairs do??? Surely, after every SINGLE tourny, at least 50% will be the targets as the "cheating goat".

I GOT ENOUGH OF THIS!!!

 

LB, u had highlighted lot of valid points. Seriously, in real life, strategies are used both on and off court, be it in the sport of badminton or court of law. Personally i have no gripe about china (or any other country) shifting their own team around. It their prerogative in my opinion. What i've said before is that these things happen. If I'm rank #5 (a very gigantic big if ), all the whining in the world wouldn't get me to the #1 spot.

 

Good points, LazyBuddy. I am also sick of reading this kind of China dirty tricks and strategies discussion.

 

Let's make this clear:

Either Huang/Gao or Yang/Zhang are good enough to be #1 or #2.

1. They might use team strategy, because they are good as a group (aslo if u think Wei/Zhao, Zhang/Zhang, etc also got involved). All these 4 pairs they are capable to trash anyone else and capture the title.

2. It's not team strategy to make them #1-#4, etc. Let's use an obvious example. Say me and my friends get a chance to play this tourny. No matter how good our "team strategy" got developped, or how tricky we could be, skill lvl as in us, will guarantee early exist, but NOT a WO in final.

3. They might gain a little bit advantage, if there's a strategy. But shouldn't we also feel sorry for them back then, when CHN players play no more than 8,9 tournies each yr, while European players easily attend more than a dozen? Is that fair for CHN players for their ranking back then? I did not hear they force IBF to change the ranking regardless it's favorable for them or not.

4. Say there's strategy. Isn't strategy part of the sport?

4.1 Why baminton/tennis/table tennis player try to drag their opponents off balance, and let them run, and try to say as much energy as possible? Is that cheating??? As they should be "man" enough to always over-run their opponents?

4.2 Talking about ticket worth. In NBA games, if a team is leading 30 points in first 3 quaters, last quater is always all rookie+bench garbage time. Should I claim 25% ticket refund, as I did not see my favorite all stars battle each other? In NHL, if a team leade 3+ goals for the last 5 min, both team will get enforcers to knock around on ice. Should I get my 10% ticket value back? In NFL, team with big lead will using running game or even timeout to burn the clock. Maybe I should ask for 50% ticket refund, while I am sitting outside to watch the time out, right? In boxing, there should be 12 rounds. If there's a KO in 2nd round, maybe I should get 90% of my $$$. Why? I even get my seat warmed up yet... Just way too many, I don't want to be ESPN as for now...

Please, as fans, we want exciting match. Maybe sometimes, we should also understand what the coaches and players are suffering from, to really show our support.

 

tama-aki,

Yeah, I was from CHN. However, I don't think I am that narrow minded, as only cheer for the ppl have similar background. I like badminton as a sport, regardless who take the title. Do u know I just selected Wong CH to take the AE in the contest? hehehehehe...

I am not targeting u, but rather talking about the issues in general. I just say, it's very hard to determine the "effort". As in ur previous reply, u said Mia is good, fight hard, might got her 0:11 because of tireness. Why can't this also apply for Yang/Zhang's 3 points? At least, they got tons of fight in previous rounds, got a tight match in first set. Can't they feel tired or be on an off day? Never have to say, this pair receive a critical serve penalty call in 1st set, which might get some mental issues involved.

Excuse me kepting using myself as example, even though I am clearly nowhere near their lvl. In my club, I sometimes could upset very good players, but also could lose to players way below my lvl. Why? Relatively inconsistent, and stamina could be a key factor as well. If this happens to me, it might happen to everyone, as no one is a robot.

If I ever used any "strong" word, please don't take it personal. hehhehhhhe..... Maybe I should get some "anger control" training.

 

In the world Champs case 2003 I watch the game live, and I believe on e of them was struggling with injury, the other was trying to cover her partners inability to move. If i did have an injury, i wouldnt risk making it worse by trying a little bit, i would probably............retire.....giving the other team a walk over (like last week??)

 

The strategy being employed is to get Chinese pairs to the number 1 and 2 in the rankings.
The object of this is to get their best pairs in opposite halves of the draw, so that they have the best possible chance of GOLD & SILVER.

If their 1 and 2 pairs end up in the same half, they will probably get gold and bronze.

Mia and Camilla's losses to love in the WC are irrelevent. The losses did not benefit their respective teammates (if any were even left in the tournament at that stage).

When China gives walkover to China, 1 of the Chinese pairs is guaranteed to benefit.
I'm not saying other countries haven't done it.
China is currently so dominant, it has the best ability to use these tactics.
A small part of their dominance comes from their large population pool.

 

I guess some of us here don't care much about the money people pay to watch the top CHN vs CHN? Strategy aside, as a fan, if I bought a ticket to see a game, I'd like to see both players or pairs play with determination and if possible, to slug it out, be it Russian vs Russian or Thailand vs Thailand.

But as a coach, it's different. They're performance are rated based on successes, not the number of players making it to which round and what tournament.

Team A : 20SF, 20F appearances out of 40, win 5 medals.

Team B : 15SF, 12F appearances out of 40, win 9 medals.

Team B is still considered more successful. A will be considered under achieving for making it so far, yet winning so little.

The saying is true in this context, "You finish first, you are the champion. You finish second, you're nobody".

 

The question isn't whether China use team orders to affect world rankings, olympic qual and titles but whether anything can be done about it.

Clearly in any major tournament given the competitiveness of all the matches any player receiving an effective bye against a compatriot recevies a massive boost in gaining a days rest while their opponent endures a tough match. When it is the semis or quarters of the WC this clearly affects the outcome.

If players withdraw citing injury to give teammates a higher seeding at olympics this just puts china in stronger position in that the koreans will have to face both either the chinese one or two pair in the semi , while the assumed two chinese pairs in the other semi fix their result. Clearly this gives the koreans no chance and is unfair.

I remember the 92 AE final when zhao gave the match to lui jun, clearly because zhao didn't need the ranking points. When the AE mens singles may be the only televised match in the year on british TV this was terrible for the game.

Chinese players admitted at the wc that they were throwing matches, it was blatant and now they have apparantly moved on feigning injury for similar effect. Chinese domination is bad for the sport.

 

1. When u look at a tourny, u can't just look at 1 round. Maybe round 4, A has easier task than B, but if u combine round 1 through round 4, u might see A has much tougher tasks than B.

2. There's no " 100% fairness" in sports. A true winner should fully anticipate all tough matches. S/he should be physically and mentally ready for 5 hrs fight every round, and every set to deuce. If s/he gain an easier taks, good. If not, focus on what u r doing, and DO it! Not Complain about others having easier schedule, etc.

3. I don't want to throw out all my non-CHN examples again. If that's the case, I will bring up Ra's case again. How many times she lost WD so easily, then dominate in XD??? Should I claim her 11 XD titles are FAKE? As she "did not give 100% in WD???" Give me a break, please.

4. Chinese domination is bad... Ok, they are not born to be good elites. Every baby has the each chance to be good in badminton. CHN has larger poll in population, and great program in badminton. That's how they are good. Other nations have the equal chance, look at DEN, KOR, MAS, IND, they don't have billions of ppl, but sure another great force. If they can do it, why not other nations? Instead of complain, maybe save the effort about do some real practice???

5. In 92, everyone thought defeat NBA is a dream for 50 yrs. However, just 10 yrs, more than 1 team beat them. They caught up, and greatly close up the gap in between. How? Because they did not just sit, cry and complain about "NBA domination is no good for the sports". Instead, they train harder, and play smarter.

How many times I have to say, "let's stop crying, whinning, but do some real work"???

 

I agree the other countries need to work harder to catch China, however the use of team tactics means it is even harder to break the monopoly. If Ra did take it easy in a doubles final because she had no chance of winning and still had to play mixed that in no way equates to a China pair giving another pair a walkover to save that pair the effort. In Ra's case the result of the tournament would be unaffected. Noone else would be disadvantaged by this. Even if I did believe that Ra took it easy if she didn't make a good effort she should be punished since again the ticket buying public would have been cheated.

At major events the ws and wd matches are often of no interest, why because its china v china and everyone knows the results are not legitimate. Same even in ms and with 5 ms in top 11 that leaves a lot of room for manipulation.

In the worst case a third pairs ranking could be boosted by allowing them to beat the top pair , thus qualifiying the third pair for olympics or world champs at the expense of a better pair from another country who may have only one chance in their career to qualify.

Finally its not fair on the Chinese team, one of the younger plays was forced to lose at the wc, he may easily never get another shot at the title.

 

As for withdrawing from an event citing injury, an easy thing for the IBF to do would be to say players withdrawing injured are not allowed to play in any more events for a number of days, let's say 30.
If a person has a serious injury, they won't mind the time off as they will want to recover.

Even then, what do you do in the case of, say, a player picks up a minor injury in one round. Next round they decide to play through it. After game 1 they realise they've got no chance of winning due to the injury. Their choices then are:
1. Continue to play full on, still lose, and risk making the injury worse.
2. Stroll through game 2, losing quickly.
3. Withdraw injured.

If the player would be punished for options 2 or 3, I don't think it's fair to expect them to risk greater injury by haaving to take option 1.

There may not be a fair way to resolve this issue while players play as country rather than as individuals. But badminton worldwide probably can't support a structure where players play as individuals (as tennis does).

I certainly haven't got all the answers.

In F1 you get team orders, and people complain that you don't get to see the best racing. But there you get the individual competition and the constructors competition. (Dunno if that's a useful comparison)

 

Neil I think your analogy is useful but its more like this:

Ferrari (China) have the fastest cars to start with and get 5 cars at the front of the grid, every other team has only two cars. Ferrari then instruct drivers 2-5 to block / obstruct / crash into the other teams and make no attempt to overtake no.1 driver!!