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  1. #256
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    I understand what you said but I do not agree. You have to consider the history of badminton to understand what MF said during that final.
    At the 08 OLY, LD crushed everyone, and specially LCW. MF said that was the best badminton display he ever saw. But after that LCW changed his style and became an aggressive player. Slowly the H2H between these two became balanced.
    At the 2011 WC final, LCW had arrived at a technical and physical level some, like MF ( and me) considered above LD. But other factors come into play, like handling pressure and tactics. In those, LD proved to remain on top.
    Anyway, what MF said at the end was that LCW was as good as LD (during the post 08 OLY period) and that LD would take all the titles would not reflect this equality.
    You might think this is being biased, but I say it is an assessment quite informed.
    1. This is exactly what the problem is. You are even quoting wrong statistics. Before Olympics 2008, LCW won 5 off 15 matches he had played. After that he has won 4 off 16 matches. The difference has only increased.

    2. For me, it was Lin Dan who was doing most of the mistakes. He was leading in the first game when they went into extra points. Demolished LCW in the second. And was also leading 19-16 when he did a couple of blunders. Even the match point to LCW was awarded on a mistake off LD.

    3. The major difference between Lin Dan and LCW is that LD is a winner. Yes, I agree that LD has got a heart of steel. But I am the person who admires it more. I like these close finishes, and to see the killer instinct coming through.

    4. The purpose of the match is to win. It may involve many skills. It is your job to be good at all departments and not whine about it. The results of a match are and should be the best determinant of a better player, rest everything is fairly subjective.

    5. If you cannot see biased commentary in wc11, dude it's too tough to explain. I am ready to write a paper on this one. I will choose neutral people, who know nothing about Badminton to watch the commentary and then choose.

  2. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by arjevo View Post
    i have seen that match like so many times before and as far as i remember, what morten frost said about lee chong wei is that 'he is the best player in the world at the moment' and he clearly said that he might not win this one but he was simply playing at another lever at that moment. right at the start of the match he also praised lin dan about his outstanding play and all. well i certainly differ from people here. .i never found anything biased from the commentators in that match.
    Yes arjevo but how can you say that, when all the stats point to a different story.
    let's talk about records.
    Lin Dan has a negative record against 3 players, Peter Rasmussen, Pullela Gopichand and Chen Wei. And a neutral record against 2, Chen hong and Ewk Hong Ong.
    Remember all these players were before his age. He was just a teenager when playing gopichand or rasmussen.

    LCW has a negative record against 14 players, and a neutral against 4!

  3. #258
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    Quote Originally Posted by galaxyduo View Post
    Some of you LCW fanboys and your bias are quite laughable. The H2H between LCW and LD post 2008 Olympics is 12 wins for LD, 4 wins for LCW:

    http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/pr...E-DDFA46A1333A

    If you throw out the 2012 Olympics and 2011 + 2013 WC, LCW has still lost plenty to LD so it's probably not a matter of nerves.

    I don't even know why LCW fanboys think LCW is technically on par with LD. It's obvious that LCW is technically inferior to LD, otherwise the H2H record would show a different picture. Again, look at the post 2008 Olympic H2H matches against LD: In LD's losses to LCW, LD got 16 points in a set (Swiss SS 2009). In LCW's losses to LD, LCW achieved single digits three times: 9 points (China SS 2008), 7 points (China SS 2009), and 8 points (Thomas Cup Malaysia 2010). Actually, post 2008 Olympics, LD has never had a set with single digits against LCW.

    Now the truth about technical skill. LD has is a superior net player. In fact, LD is probably the best net player in today's MS. This is how LD gets his opponent to lift and how LD gets control of the rally. In addition, LD has superior smash defense near the body. LCW just doesn't handle body smashes as well as LD, especially when they play against each other. LD has better anticipation than LCW (this is also a technical skill).

    Technically, the only thing I like about LCW more than LD is LCW's form for overhand clear. I don't like the position of LD's right hand/arm on his clears and LCW looks a little bit more balanced and natural. However, this isn't a deal breaker as LD has no problems clearing to the back and staying balanced for the return.

    Pre-2012 Olympics, it may have been barely debatable for LCW fan boys who think LCW was as good as LD. Post 2012 Olympics (and with LD's win against LCW in 2013 WC), it's not even barely debatable anymore, it's simply a fact that LD is superior to LCW in many areas, including the technical area.
    I don't know who you mean by LCW fan boys. I am not in the lot though, because I personaly like LD much more then I like LCW.
    In fact, to reduce this topic to who you like the most, and commenting according to one's preference, is what some criticized with MF. So you should not replicate that fault.
    I said LCW, post 08 OLY, slowly progressed in his encounter with LD. The was a curb, peaking in 2012-2012. The change did not happen all of a sudden in october 2008.
    Now some of you might consider in 11 and 12 LD was still above LCW not only in their H2H, but in their overall performances. But that you cannot fathom why other people believe the opposite just show you are the biased one, not MF

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by galaxyduo View Post
    Some of you LCW fanboys and your bias are quite laughable. The H2H between LCW and LD post 2008 Olympics is 12 wins for LD, 4 wins for LCW:

    http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/pr...E-DDFA46A1333A

    If you throw out the 2012 Olympics and 2011 + 2013 WC, LCW has still lost plenty to LD so it's probably not a matter of nerves.

    I don't even know why LCW fanboys think LCW is technically on par with LD. It's obvious that LCW is technically inferior to LD, otherwise the H2H record would show a different picture. Again, look at the post 2008 Olympic H2H matches against LD: In LD's losses to LCW, LD got 16 points in a set (Swiss SS 2009). In LCW's losses to LD, LCW achieved single digits three times: 9 points (China SS 2008), 7 points (China SS 2009), and 8 points (Thomas Cup Malaysia 2010). Actually, post 2008 Olympics, LD has never had a set with single digits against LCW.

    Now the truth about technical skill. LD has is a superior net player. In fact, LD is probably the best net player in today's MS. This is how LD gets his opponent to lift and how LD gets control of the rally. In addition, LD has superior smash defense near the body. LCW just doesn't handle body smashes as well as LD, especially when they play against each other. LD has better anticipation than LCW (this is also a technical skill).

    Technically, the only thing I like about LCW more than LD is LCW's form for overhand clear. I don't like the position of LD's right hand/arm on his clears and LCW looks a little bit more balanced and natural. However, this isn't a deal breaker as LD has no problems clearing to the back and staying balanced for the return.

    Pre-2012 Olympics, it may have been barely debatable for LCW fan boys who think LCW was as good as LD. Post 2012 Olympics (and with LD's win against LCW in 2013 WC), it's not even barely debatable anymore, it's simply a fact that LD is superior to LCW in many areas, including the technical area.
    Excellent. That's what I call the scientific approach based on facts or evidence. It amazes me there are still Lin Dan deniers around.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Devendra View Post
    1. This is exactly what the problem is. You are even quoting wrong statistics. Before Olympics 2008, LCW won 5 off 15 matches he had played. After that he has won 4 off 16 matches. The difference has only increased.

    2. For me, it was Lin Dan who was doing most of the mistakes. He was leading in the first game when they went into extra points. Demolished LCW in the second. And was also leading 19-16 when he did a couple of blunders. Even the match point to LCW was awarded on a mistake off LD.

    3. The major difference between Lin Dan and LCW is that LD is a winner. Yes, I agree that LD has got a heart of steel. But I am the person who admires it more. I like these close finishes, and to see the killer instinct coming through.

    4. The purpose of the match is to win. It may involve many skills. It is your job to be good at all departments and not whine about it. The results of a match are and should be the best determinant of a better player, rest everything is fairly subjective.

    5. If you cannot see biased commentary in wc11, dude it's too tough to explain. I am ready to write a paper on this one. I will choose neutral people, who know nothing about Badminton to watch the commentary and then choose.
    Nice rejoinder. That's why Lin Dan is my type of hero, not LCW.

  6. #261
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    The numbers quoted are not showing what we discuss here. From the year before WC 2011, the H2H is LCW 2 LD 1. There was momentum for LCW.
    After WC, there was two tournaments played without spirit (I was there for the final at HK open, it was played without any kind of intensity.) In All Eng 2012, LCW retired injured.
    Then there was the OLY 2012 and WC 2013. LD won both of them, there is no denying, but that does not invalidates what MF said.

    As for the two players technical skill, I don't believe LD's net play is better. But I believe is deception is better. LD's anticipation is for me tactical. He is a more clever player, and mentally much stronger. But still, I believe what MF said in WC 11 is correct.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    Nice rejoinder. That's why Lin Dan is my type of hero, not LCW.
    Yes Justin, you are the type who likes heroes. Not every one does

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    From the year before WC 2011, the H2H is LCW 2 LD 1. There was momentum for LCW.
    Renbo, so you just cherry pick one year? If we cherry picked 2013, LD has a 100% win rate against LCW.

  9. #264
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    Quote Originally Posted by kruntil View Post
    he's talking about match fixing by CHN teams. not superior CHN teams.

    correct me if i'm wrong.
    I know what he wants to talk.

    Yet this kinds of so-called "match-fixing" is one kind of injustice caused by superiority, you could only break it by beating them in the court.

    the success of Thai and Spain's WS in last and this years' WC and Japan's success in this year's TC reach taught Malaysia, Denmark and India a lesson: Save your whining around, work hard to break in by sports means on the court. Only coward will want to find all kinds of excuses.

    I am an athlete in many sports, as an athlete, you should be prepared to accept that every match is individual, your opponents could be weak, strong, tired, motivated, im-motivated... etc. for all kinds of reason, not necessarily be stronger because their last round got a bye (by someone of or not of their teammate), they could be rusty becoz of that.... all you should do is to make sure yourself is strong, in good form, and trained well to face every challenge...

    as a real athlete, you should also have a desire to beat as more good opponents as possible, not to hope for an easy way out by means of limiting better players' participation...

    if you love a sports, you should love to see more good players in action, not full of mediocre ones just out of political consideration of so-called equal participation. Many ppl love to watch Michael Jordon, Larry Bird, the Dream, ... all sorts of American NBA players, even they are not of their nationality.. yet in this sports of badminton, ppl would say boring or quest for limitation of participation of better players just becoz they are too good....

    what a cursed sports!!!!

  10. #265
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    If you "love sports" you would also want to see real matches, not glorified exhibition matches between same country opponents ...
    That is his issue, not that one country dominates [the NBA is trying their hardest to expand the game internationally since you brought basketball into it; they know that that is the only way too grow, total (enduring) domination is not a wishful situation but hey only the olympic medal count counts ). If this was club football, two opponents from the same country would be rivals, not playing in a pecking order for the next round.
    Last edited by demolidor; 08-31-2014 at 01:50 PM.

  11. #266
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    Of course the NBA does not equal Team USA and has different interests (Team USA also is an afterthought in NBA terms). It may or may not be in China's interest to expand badminton in terms of $$$ as long as the gold medals keep coming in. At some point though it could finally run the actual risk of getting cut from the Olympics and *poof*: no more medals. Badminton Europe is certainly doing it's part to expand and improve badminton in Europe (and beyond) with their training centers and exchange programs and summer camps ...
    When other countries don't get success, they don't get funding and how are they going to improve from there? Kind of a chicken and egg situation I suppose: success brings funding but funding is "needed" (first) to bring success

    I guess one thing Team USA and Team China have in common: there are a lot of people out there hoping for an upset every time !
    Last edited by demolidor; 08-31-2014 at 02:22 PM.

  12. #267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonc108 View Post
    I know what he wants to talk.

    Yet this kinds of so-called "match-fixing" is one kind of injustice caused by superiority, you could only break it by beating them in the court.

    the success of Thai and Spain's WS in last and this years' WC and Japan's success in this year's TC reach taught Malaysia, Denmark and India a lesson: Save your whining around, work hard to break in by sports means on the court. Only coward will want to find all kinds of excuses.

    I am an athlete in many sports, as an athlete, you should be prepared to accept that every match is individual, your opponents could be weak, strong, tired, motivated, im-motivated... etc. for all kinds of reason, not necessarily be stronger because their last round got a bye (by someone of or not of their teammate), they could be rusty becoz of that.... all you should do is to make sure yourself is strong, in good form, and trained well to face every challenge...

    as a real athlete, you should also have a desire to beat as more good opponents as possible, not to hope for an easy way out by means of limiting better players' participation...

    if you love a sports, you should love to see more good players in action, not full of mediocre ones just out of political consideration of so-called equal participation. Many ppl love to watch Michael Jordon, Larry Bird, the Dream, ... all sorts of American NBA players, even they are not of their nationality.. yet in this sports of badminton, ppl would say boring or quest for limitation of participation of better players just becoz they are too good....

    what a cursed sports!!!!
    Thanks jonc for including india among the elite list. We are nowhere near denmark or malaysia or china or indonesia. Infact we created history by winning bronze medal in uber cup for the first time. Not like as if you are talking about lesson. Infact, japan really taught a lesson to CHINA . I am wondering how come you forgot that . Again this time we got another bronze medal in WC which is also a history.

    As a badminton fan, I must agree your point that saina should not have gone to media. That is not good. But also I should tell that li xuerui should not have attacked saina for that.. Though saina's statement was generalised one , li xuerui personnally attacked saina. That's not fair on her part. Within 48 hours, she paid the price. She lost to a non-chinese player again.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    The numbers quoted are not showing what we discuss here. From the year before WC 2011, the H2H is LCW 2 LD 1. There was momentum for LCW.
    After WC, there was two tournaments played without spirit (I was there for the final at HK open, it was played without any kind of intensity.) In All Eng 2012, LCW retired injured.
    Then there was the OLY 2012 and WC 2013. LD won both of them, there is no denying, but that does not invalidates what MF said.

    As for the two players technical skill, I don't believe LD's net play is better. But I believe is deception is better. LD's anticipation is for me tactical. He is a more clever player, and mentally much stronger. But still, I believe what MF said in WC 11 is correct.
    Oh wow, two wins (and not even two wins in a row) is "momentum." Once again, why stop there? So what if he won two in a row? Not just momentum, but a winning streak, I suppose?

    As far as what Frost said, no one tournament does not invalidate what he said. Except it's not one tournament is it. I mean, Lee Chong Wei must have the worst luck on earth. Bad thing just keep happening to him and only him. Boggles the mind.

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    Quote Originally Posted by renbo View Post
    I don't know who you mean by LCW fan boys. I am not in the lot though, because I personaly like LD much more then I like LCW.
    In fact, to reduce this topic to who you like the most, and commenting according to one's preference, is what some criticized with MF. So you should not replicate that fault.
    I said LCW, post 08 OLY, slowly progressed in his encounter with LD. The was a curb, peaking in 2012-2012. The change did not happen all of a sudden in october 2008.
    Now some of you might consider in 11 and 12 LD was still above LCW not only in their H2H, but in their overall performances. But that you cannot fathom why other people believe the opposite just show you are the biased one, not MF
    none of your posts indicates u like ld in anyway. in fact, u keep making condescending remarks on chinese system and anything chinese in general that is sickening, just like your idol morten frost does with ld. you are even more biased than frost

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    Quote Originally Posted by mindreader View Post
    Oh wow, two wins (and not even two wins in a row) is "momentum." Once again, why stop there? So what if he won two in a row? Not just momentum, but a winning streak, I suppose?

    As far as what Frost said, no one tournament does not invalidate what he said. Except it's not one tournament is it. I mean, Lee Chong Wei must have the worst luck on earth. Bad thing just keep happening to him and only him. Boggles the mind.
    I don't cherry pick guys. MF said that at that moment (WC 11) LCW was the best. What we are debatting (in case you forgot) was that MF was (or was not) biased when he said so. I believe his opinion was sound, argumented. You just had to follow badminton during that period to realise it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kenjai7373 View Post
    none of your posts indicates u like ld in anyway. in fact, u keep making condescending remarks on chinese system and anything chinese in general that is sickening, just like your idol morten frost does with ld. you are even more biased than frost
    i moved to China in 1993 and never left. I made studying this culture my work. i am teaching sinology for more then a decade. i criticize the CBA as everyone is entitled to do, and actually does here in China.
    To love blindly is to be a fool. I criticize what I would like to be corrected that's it.
    You should check your mouth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by scorpion1 View Post
    Thanks jonc for including india among the elite list. We are nowhere near denmark or malaysia or china or indonesia. Infact we created history by winning bronze medal in uber cup for the first time. Not like as if you are talking about lesson. Infact, japan really taught a lesson to CHINA . I am wondering how come you forgot that . Again this time we got another bronze medal in WC which is also a history.

    As a badminton fan, I must agree your point that saina should not have gone to media. That is not good. But also I should tell that li xuerui should not have attacked saina for that.. Though saina's statement was generalised one , li xuerui personnally attacked saina. That's not fair on her part. Within 48 hours, she paid the price. She lost to a non-chinese player again.
    I agree that Saina's opinion is legitimate, but LXR's answer is not, being personal. Whatever we think of Saina's opinion on that matter, it is her right to speak it.

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