10% grip change for overheads

Discussion in 'Techniques / Training' started by darrengsaw, Jun 24, 2015.

  1. darrengsaw

    darrengsaw Regular Member

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    Hi all,

    There seems to be a bit of debate about basic grip vs a slightly adjusted towards panhandle grip.

    I seem to really struggle to use pronation for some reason when trying to use the adjusted grip.

    Just interested in others thoughts and observations.

    Thanks
    Darren
     
  2. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Hi Darren,

    Struggling to use pronation is a sign that you may have adjusted the grip too far. This happens to a lot of players.

    The differences between these grips are very subtle. The best way to judge is by how the shot feels.

    As you have found, going even slightly too far towards panhandle makes pronation less effective, and therefore you lose power.

    Going too far towards basic/backhand causes you to slice the shuttle. You can detect this by the feel and sound of the hit, and also because your clears and smashes will tend to veer off to your left (if you are a right-hander).

    I should mention that I will be revising my Badminton Bible grips guide. I have found the basic grip to be too much of a "slicing grip", and now prefer teaching a forehand grip as the default for overheads (this grip has the V-shape exactly in the middle, as opposed to offset slightly either side; it's in between the two other grips).

    Hope that helps,
    Mike
     
  3. darrengsaw

    darrengsaw Regular Member

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    Hi Mike,

    Yes, I think you may be right, possibly I'm going too far over, seems contact point comes down a bit too much as well.

    Some more experimentation is required I suspect.

    Look forward to the updated grip guide, that is really useful.

    Thanks again
    Darren
     
  4. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Regular Member

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    Also awaiting that update Mike ;)

    Subscribed to your vids, well worth it. Saves so much time.

    Thanks
     
  5. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Thanks, I'm really glad you're finding them useful! :)

    I've recently finished a huge technical upgrade of the website. It's mostly internal, so from the outside you won't see many changes (like replacing the car engine, not the paintwork). But it solved some serious problems for subscribers that were requiring too much manual intervention from me.

    Now that's done, we are finally starting filming again. We'll take a while to get up to speed, and I want a bunch of videos for a "relaunch" event, as well as a small backlog to take the pressure off.

    So the focus is currently more on getting new content ready, rather than updating old content -- which means stuff like the grips guide update will have to wait for now. To avoid confusion I will probably flag content that needs updating and briefly say why.

    We're also getting used to a new camera, microphone, venue, and workflow -- all of which are big improvements over our previous setup. There could be some difficulty filming over the summer holidays, but I think we can get 8am sessions at least.

    ...which is not so bad, as I only need to get up at 6. Those 5 am Horsham-Arun starts were punishing. ;)
     
    #5 Gollum, Jul 1, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2015
  6. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Regular Member

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    Really cool! Looking forward to it. No pressure :)
     
  7. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Thanks, encouragement much appreciated. :)
     
  8. darrengsaw

    darrengsaw Regular Member

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    Definitely seconded, the Bible is a great resource.

    All your hard work is appreciated Mike.
     
  9. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Thanks Darren! :)
     
  10. DuckFeet

    DuckFeet Regular Member

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    Do it Mon!

    Good luck Darren.
     
  11. bbirdman

    bbirdman Regular Member

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    Hi Mike

    I have to disagree with your conclusion about the basic grip being a slicing grip. When changing from forehand to basic you have to change your positioning (more side on with basic) and where you hit it otherwise it will slice and veer to the left (to the right for lefthanders)

    I encountered the exact same problem when changing from a more panhandlish grip to forehand. This was a sign I had the correct grip now I had to change everything else. It was hard. changing grips is hard even harder for people who have played longer with a different grip.

    I think for singles the basic grip is the best standard grip. Its a great waiting grip and it good for late shots which have to be played more side on. Even more extreme I am sometimes forced to play v late forehand shots with thumb grip!

    Also when changing from smash adjusted to forehand grip it enables steeper smashes I think also that a further change from forehand to basic produces even steeper smashes.
     
  12. hamza_tm

    hamza_tm Regular Member

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    But then are you changing your position just to suit your grip?
     
  13. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    This is always true, one way or the other. Either you choose the grip based on your position, or you change your position based on your grip e.g. I could wait with a backhand grip or with a panhandle grip when defending. When the shot comes, I need to move in order to play a backhand defence or a crouching defensive shot. Its the same for the overhead - get into the position that works with your technique (and the grip is fairly central to the technique).

    Personally, i find the whole overhead grip thing weird. In badminton, you will play 90% of shots from non-perfect positions, meaning you need to adjust your position/grip/hitting technique in order to get the shuttle from where it is to where it needs to go, with a high degree of accuracy/quality/control etc. The real skill is learning to control the shuttle - which is a general principle involving feet and hands and grip and court positioning. I need to use every imaginable grip at some point during play - its just I have picked a few "favourites" that work for large proportions of shots.

    On the topic of the 10% grip change - it definitely doesn't make sense in my mind to worry about it. I like the basic grip - I use it most of the time. Does it sometimes slip into a different grip when I play other shots? Probably. Do I care? No. Do I want to consciously change it a little bit? Definitely not - that would just be me interfering with my own abilities that I have learnt over many years of practice.

    I have to disagree with Gollums "feel" based grip theory. If you feel you are slicing the shuttle (shuttle veers off etc) then it MAY be you have a strange grip (basic or otherwise). Its far more likely that you have not yet done the countless hours of accuracy practice needed to fully understand where your strings are pointing at impact. You also haven't practised enough to understand how to hit cleanly with power (in the intended direction). These are things that your own body will learn over time - and is very difficult for anybody to impart in words or technical pointers. I believe that the best thing is to just start with a "correct" grip, and then let your body figure it out.

    So, in summary - use the basic grip or a slight alteration in either direction - this will enable you to use your full reach in height, and give you good use of your muscles and joints. Pick a grip similar to the basic grip, now go and practise hitting accurately and cleanly for 100 hours over the course of the next few years. Your grip may change slightly during that process, but you need to continue to use all your joints and muscles, and retain full height of contact. As long as you do this, you are good to go!

    Good luck all!
     
    #13 MSeeley, Jul 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  14. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    Yes, so to some extent it depends on how much side-on you want to be.

    Remember that the difference between basic and forehand is quite small -- small enough that I wouldn't say you are "wrong" for preferring the basic grip.


    I agree with this.


    I don't think that's going to work well -- but by all means try it and see what happens!


    Agreed. Ultimately the best grip is the one that has been automatically adjusted to suit the situation, without the player even thinking about it. This takes a lot of practice.

    The "named" grips are teaching aids. That's all.


    That's a fair point. I would say the "feel based" stuff requires a lot of experience. Nevertheless it is very useful to develop that feel.


    I would say, "use the forehand grip or a slight alteration in either direction".

    In other words, for "normal" forehand overhead practice, the following are reasonable choices:

    • Basic grip
    • Forehand grip
    • Very slight panhandle

    ...and of those, my preference would be forehand.

    I don't think I would want players going even farther towards backhand than the basic grip.
     
  15. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I like discussions with you - you have an open mind and are respectful when you voice a contrary opinion. I was actualy very careful about what I wrote - I have no problem with players using the "forehand grip", the basic grip, or slightly going towards the thumb grip. I know many players who have this grip slightly towards backhand - they are tall and can clip the shuttle down from behind them. But actually, they play extremely well with excellent variety, and can generate very steep angles. The quality is good, and their technique is not hindered in any way (one is very highly ranked junior in his age group). Interestingly, I believe that Lars Paaske used to play with a grip that was slightly twisted towards the thumb grip. It produces a very noticeable "clipping" hitting action - when i have used it, it seems less powerful but capable of hitting very steep (Lars rarely smashed though - it was mainly stick smashes which may explain why he used an adjusted grip).

    However, I do not want to see players using a very slight panhandle grip. Not in my lessons!!! (granted I know some players who can use this grip extremely well too! But im just stubborn about this sort of thing!).
     
  16. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    That's a good point -- it does work very nicely for that type of shot. :)


    Actually, after I wrote that I reconsidered. When I'm teaching someone, I have the same general feeling as you do about that slight panhandle. It's certainly a lot more worrying when a player is too panhandle than too backhand (and the former is very common, whereas the latter is rare).

    I see the forehand grip as being roughly "in the middle" here, in that you can adjust slightly either way for certain shots or positions. However, in terms of skill development it's not "in the middle", because panhandling is such a common, persistent problem so we want to steer clear of it completely at the start.

    When people are getting started with their technique (and this could include quite experienced players), I will show them a forehand grip for overheads. I am mainly thinking of basic practices such as a forehand clear under low pressure.

    If a player is using a basic grip and likes it, then I probably won't correct it. We might have a discussion about it. As with so many things, it depends on the player. I would try changing it if I felt it was causing them problems.

    I would probably discourage them from going farther towards backhand, because I want their basic clear to be really solid. Of course if their clear already looks great then I'm not going to pick it apart! And of course I will not interfere with them going more backhand for shots where it is a natural fit, like the ones you described.

    If a player is using a slight panhandle, then I will correct it at this stage. Again, if I spot them using it for smashes to good effect, then I will leave it alone. But the tendency at this stage is to be a bit panhandle all the time, and that's definitely something I want to train out of them.
     
    #16 Gollum, Jul 6, 2015
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2015
  17. MSeeley

    MSeeley Regular Member

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    I agree. I think you describe a good balance between interfering and leaving alone. As you say - i wouldnt encourage players to go towards the backhand grip, but some players do it naturally when they learn to hit overhead - it is more of less impossible to hit using this grip without clearly using pronation.

    I agree that as players develop and use different grips to good effect, I will leave them alone to do their own thing. But when someone starts out, I don't like to see any panhandling.
     
  18. Gollum

    Gollum Regular Member

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    That sums it up well, I think. :)
     

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