Comparing players

Discussion in 'Professional Players' started by 2cents, May 18, 2004.

  1. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Last sunday, when I was playing badminton with my friends, we talked about the Thomas and Uber cups, and also the hot players. I said Lin Dan is one of the greatest player in the history because he did few people can before. He won so many matches continuously. But my friend disagreed. He thought Lin Dan is just an up coming new star, far behind the greatest players. Overall, he said, Lin Dan's archievements even cannot compare to Ji Xingpeng, Xia Xuanze, Chen Hong, Taufik, Hendrawan, Wong CH and Gade, Sun Jun, Dong Jiong. Then we discussed these players, we found more differences between us. I ranked Lin Dan first, then Ji X, Xia XZ, Sun Jun, Chen Hong, Gade, Hendrawan, Dong Jiong, Wong CH and Taufik, because Taufik didn't win anything big, and also never rank high for long. But my friend ranked totally differently as follows:
    (his) .........................(mine)
    Gade ........................Lin Dan
    Taufik ...................... Ji Xingpeng
    Dong Jiong ................ Xia X
    Hendrawan ................Sun Jun
    Sun Jun ....................Chen Hong
    Xia X ........................Gade
    Chen Hong ................ Hendrawan
    Wong CH....................Dong Jiong
    Ji Xingpeng.................Wong CH
    Lin Dan .....................Taufik

    It seems that it's an exactly reversed list.

    IBF offiically has a yearly evaluation including both singles and doubles. They listed Candra as the best player in year 2002, and Kim DM the best last year. But in my mind, singles are much much better. Almost all the Chinese double players are failed single players. Now the hot Cai Yun, Sang Yang, Zheng Bo were all singles before, because they were not good enough to play single any more, they were forced by coaches to play double.

    What do you think about those single players overall archievements? Do you think double players archieve more than singles?
     
    #1 2cents, May 18, 2004
    Last edited: May 18, 2004
  2. taneepak

    taneepak Regular Member

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    I think it is inherently good for you and your friend to have different opinions. If all humankind were clones of each other then God save us. Each person's opinion is influenced or even coloured by his own local set of circumstances/environment.
    Maybe you should try to convince your friend the convictions of your choice with better reasoning and arguments to back up your opinions. Your friend should do the same. If both of you still disagree, then never the twine shall meet, so be it. Multiply your case a million times, this is how the world lives.
    If you and your friend can just step outside your little circle of dispute and look a little outside, you will realize there are other people appraising both sides of the argument. Maybe, the one who gets more nods from such people has a more convincing case; or maybe not, if the people appraising your arguments are biased. You can never tell, can you?
     
  3. hcyong

    hcyong Regular Member

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    It is good for badminton as well that everyone has different (sometimes opposite) opinions. It means there is a diverse variety of players with different personalities out there.
     
  4. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    I was totally misunderstood! :(

    I think I was totally misunderstood here.

    I am very pleased and I enjoy knowing people have different views about the players, that's the reason I ask your opinion. It's like viewing a poll result. I never complained about my friend at all. I only enjoy sharing his opinion. I thought it's interesting to see how other people evaluate top players. I never want to correct them, and I don't think I was even correct at first place. How this interesting topic became a boring sophiscated philosophic discussion here. :confused: It is kind of disappointed no people interested in either
     
  5. Qidong

    Qidong Regular Member

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    I like the way people rate tennis players - how many grand slams they have won. In badminton, I would say the grand slams includes Olympic, World Champions and All England. So my list of greatest players from 1996 should include Poul-Erik Hoyer-Larsen, Ji Xinpeng, Peter Rasmussen, Sun Jun, Hendrawan, Peter Gade, Xia Xuanue, .....

    Among them all, I would rank Poul-Erik Hoyer-Larsen as #1. (Since 1996).
     
  6. shawntn

    shawntn Regular Member

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    I wont discuss any of my philoshopical standpoint. Lets revive this thread. :)

    my list

    Chen Hong
    Lin Dan
    Taufik
    Gade
    Wong CH
    Xia X
    Hendrawan
    Sun Jun
    Dong Jiong
    Ji Xingpeng

    I wont argue mine is correct comparing to everone else. But certainly mine is definately correct in my little world. I am pretty sure there is a good chance someone out there shares my view. :)
     
  7. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Thanks for your valuable posts. I appreciate them very much. Even though different people have different views, it is very exciting for me at least to see other people's rankings. I don't need your support my way of ranking. Instead, if you criticize my ranking, I will be very grateful, It is not an issue who's right and who's wrong, it is just for exchanging ideas and visions and insights, it is exciting to read your ranking because I know how you view those players. I really enjoy reading your posts. Thanks again.
     
  8. Nrlll9

    Nrlll9 Regular Member

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    my list

    lin dan
    sun jun
    hendrawan
    Xia X
    Wong CH
    Chen Hong
    Taufik
    Gade
    Dong Jiong
    Ji Xingpeng
     
  9. BoboTheBadder

    BoboTheBadder Regular Member

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    Sun Jun
    Xia XZ
    Hendrawan
    Gade
    Chen Hong
    Lin Dan
    Ji Xinpeng
    Wong CH
    Dong Jiong
    Taufik
     
  10. Hugo

    Hugo Regular Member

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    It's really tough to rank players in order of how "good" they are because individuals hold diversified standards for measuring players.

    Should the players who've won Olympic Golds be up there automatically?? Sure, Ji won at 2000 but then he faded from view right after. In fact, I'm betting that for the average fan, he is one of the least recognized Chinese player names.

    Or should we rank players by how long they can maintain a #1 spot?? Chen Hong should be pretty high for this feat. Or how many major GPs they've won? Or how talented they are at badminton??

    It's tough to judge but I belive, just based on Lin Dan's unparalled performance in the past 6 months, he has already established himself high up on that list. Based on his current play and streak, his projected GP career total could easily be 20, 25+ GPs! Also, if Taufik and Wong CH are considered on that list, then Bao and others should also be on the list.

    At this point, I am ranking Lin D just a nanometer behind the Olympics and WC winners listed(save for Ji). However, by this year in Athens or next year in Anaheim, CA he could solidfy his position......
     
  11. BoboTheBadder

    BoboTheBadder Regular Member

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    Agree completely. Lin Dan hasn't proven himself in any major singles tournaments yet (save Thomas Cup which is a team tournament). As soon has he does, he's gonna shoot way up on my list. :D
     
  12. Cheung

    Cheung Moderator

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    Very interesting thread.

    May I suggest one other criteria - winning when it really makes a difference.

    What is a difference.

    Obviously, big tournaments are one criteria.

    Another is winning crucial ties in team tournaments.

    This is where Sun Jun and Hendrawan come up really high on the list with their contributions to TC, even higher than Xia Xuan Ze or Peter Gade (Peter Gade goes down because of not having won WGPF, WC).

    Yang Yang in the 1986 TC final replaced the world no.1 and world champion Han Jian to play at first singles (Han Jian was dropped; not from injury but because he had difficulty beating Icuk Sugiarto). Yang Yang beat Icuk in the first singles setting the tone for China's victory.

    In 2002 TC, Hendrawan had played very few matches and was 3rd singles of Indonesia. He beat Roslin (who has a good record in TC) to win the TC.

    In 1998 TC, Hendrawan won the crucial 2nd singles in the s/f against China and then again in the final against M'sia to get Indonesia's win.

    So Chen Hong should go down, even off the list, because no WC, no WGPF, no Olympics, no TC crucial wins, lost in Sudirman cup final in 2003........ :(
     
  13. seven

    seven New Member

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    I agree with Cheung here, and this makes Gade and Chen Hong go down... :p
     
  14. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    Thanks for a lot of valuable ideas. Traditionally, people value Olympics, Thomas cup, and World Champ very high. Especially Olympics. I understand that.

    In tennis, I saw people comparing two players, or even two champions for different tournaments. The first important thing is what's the prize money for that event (money criterion), the second thing is how many players (especially top ranked players) participated in that event (competition criterion). So there is no place in tennis for Olymics champions, no place for the heros of Davis cup (Thomas cup counterpart) either.

    That's the reason I ranked Lin Dan so high. He beat so many players in all big tournaments. 6 star HK open, 6 star China open, big opens like Denmark, Korea, All England... No body did that before.

    Gade is a guy I like because he always comes with creative thinking. (Most players are quite dump in thinking). I know Gade did not win any thing big. But I agree with what he said that Olympic champ is not as big as World champ, and World champ is not as big as an open tournament champ (he meant Denmark open). I think that's totally true. Because at Olympics, besides no money, the 1st criterion, very limited players were chosen to compete. So Olympic is not big at all for both criteria (money and competition). For this coming Olympic, the long time world number one, multiple tournaments winner, current world number two, Chen Hong may be excluded. Last Olympic, Chen Hong, as world number 6 that time, was excluded. The world champ Xia XZ could be excluded also for this year's Olympics. So the guy who wins the Olympic doesn't have to be the best player on the earth.

    For the same reason, world champion is a little bit better than Olympic, but it is also limited in competiton and no money in prize. Last year world championship tournamtn, Chen Yu, who was extremely hot at that moment (thrashed all other Chinese players in national competitions), was excluded because of the limitation of players. There is also no prize money for world champs either.

    The wost unfair case is the so called Thomas cup. Some people got chances to play, some don't. I think if China team used Chen Hong to face Jonassen, I bet he would do much better than Bao CL. But ironically, Bao became a hero by difficultly edging KJ. Not only Chen Hong, Xia Xuan Ze, Park... did not have chance because of their coaches, Susilo, Ng,... and more others did not have any chance because of their countries. How come we can deprive those players greatness based on his coach, teammates or country, instead of himself.

    One index which used often in tennis, is the totol prize money earned by that player lifetime. It seems we cannot apply this to badminton.
     
    #14 2cents, May 20, 2004
    Last edited: May 20, 2004
  15. flikflak

    flikflak Regular Member

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    if we compare who's better based on the tournaments....

    It should be tournaments with high pride and high PRIZE!! :D :D

    What do u think? I'll rank them from
    Olympics,
    All England,
    World Grand Prix,
    Asian Games, Grand Prix,
    TC/UC,
    World Championships.
     
  16. WoAiZhongGuo

    WoAiZhongGuo Regular Member

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    In terms of skill

    Chen
    Gade
    WongCH
    Xia
    Lin

    ok, i don't know who Taufik and the other are so... sorry.
     
  17. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    What exactly is skill?

    Racket skill, footwork skill, mental skill?


    2cents:
    World championships does have prize money(the highest-7*), only olympics and thomas/uber and surdiman cups do not.
     
  18. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    I didn't realize that. What's the total prize money for last year world championships?

    Everyone knows that this world is run by money. And what everybody after is money. The money was grabbed during trade. There are usually 4 parties in badminton's money flow: Players, Fans, Organizers, and IBF. There could be the 5th party or 6th party in some case, such as IOC in Olympic games.

    For the open tournaments:

    1)Fans give money to local Organizer, to trade for fun, joy or maybe disappointments and sadness;
    2)Local organizer gets money from fans, gives to players
    3)Players get money from local organizer
    4)IBF gives points and gets control of the game

    For World Championship, Thomas Cup, Sudirman Cup, Uber Cup...
    1)Fans give money to local Organizer
    2)Local organizer gets money from fans, gives to IBF
    3)Players get nothing but title of the game
    4)IBF gets money from local organizer, gives title and higher points to players

    For Olympics:
    1)Fans give money to local Organizer
    2)Local organizer gets money from fans, gives to IOC
    3)Players get nothing but title of the game
    4)IBF gets money from IOC, gives title and higher points to players
    5)IOC gets money from local organizer, and gives money to IBF

    IBF can get money only from Olympics (ususally the biggest income for IBF) and world championship, thomas cup, uber cup and sudirman cup. IBF cannot profic from open tournaments, that's the reason IBF promote Olympics, World championship, Thomas cup, uber cup, and sudirman cup. Simply because that's where they get money from. But it's a hindrance for badminton players becoming true professional.

    So, in a word, Players play open tournaments for earning money for themselves, while play world championships, T-cup, U-cup, S-cup, Olympics...for generating money for IBF. It is IBF's interest to rate these no-money tournaments as the highest ranked.
     
  19. jamesd20

    jamesd20 Moderator

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    I just tried to look, but I can only tell you it is a seven star event (i.e the highest currently on the circuit, so must be quite a lot.)

    the closest I got was this http://www.worldbadminton.net/Portal/documents/wldgrpri.pdf

    but only goes up to 6*, at $250000 so must have been more than that.
     
  20. 2cents

    2cents Regular Member

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    World championships and Olympics are the ONLY two 7* events. Players can get extremely high points from S-cup, T-cup, U-cup too.

    All the other open tournaments (with prize money) cannot higher than 6 by IBF regulations. As I said, IBF needs this rule to make sure IBF can generate enough money from Olympics, World championships, and T,U,S-cups to run its business.

    If we think the other way, downgrade the IBF and IBF sponsored cups, and promote opens as the professional tournaments, players get higher pays, at least good players can make a living by playing badminton. What's the fate for the badminton ? Will it die? or become more popular? as tennis?
     

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