Fast points - tactics in MS or WS

**JRMTL** · 05-30-2004, 10:49 PM

Hi,

there is a kind of rally in badminton that is useful: fast points. How can I describe it? You are trying to win the point by trying to find fast ways to make the point.

My goal is to list a series of fast points you know. Perhaps to list as much fast points as Yonex serial numbers!!!

Here is a first one:

Righthanded versus righthanded

Player A serving using forehand drive serve on the T at the baseline or in the left shoulder of player B.
Player B will return 90% a blocked return at the net cross, so at the right front corner for player A.
Player A waits for the kill or blocks tightly to the net.

If B is wise enough, he will clear that shot in the middle of the court. But, that is when he is prepared...

What are your fast points?

**Wizbit** · 05-31-2004, 12:24 AM

Sorry but there are no easy winners in badminton, if there was everyone would be using them to win in straight games.

If you want to win (or lose) the point faster then play faster!

On the other hand, if you mean surprises and tricks to catch your opponent out...

You should read up on deception.

Originally Posted by JRMTL

Hi,

there is a kind of rally in badminton that is useful: fast points. How can I describe it? You are trying to win the point by trying to find fast ways to make the point.

My goal is to list a series of fast points you know. Perhaps to list as much fast points as Yonex serial numbers!!!

Here is a first one:

Righthanded versus righthanded

Player A serving using forehand drive serve on the T at the baseline or in the left shoulder of player B.
Player B will return 90% a blocked return at the net cross, so at the right front corner for player A.
Player A waits for the kill or blocks tightly to the net.

If B is wise enough, he will clear that shot in the middle of the court. But, that is when he is prepared...

What are your fast points?

**JRMTL** · 05-31-2004, 01:25 AM

Originally Posted by Wizbit

Sorry but there are no easy winners in badminton, if there was everyone would be using them to win in straight games.

If you want to win (or lose) the point faster then play faster!

On the other hand, if you mean surprises and tricks to catch your opponent out...

You should read up on deception.

False. Sometimes, you need these kinds of "faster", "tricks" points to help you to gain mental advantage on your opponent.

Now, in level 3 of coaching in Canada (national level), they say there are 3 major fields to practice:

a) technics
b) tactics
c) fast points

Bobby Milroy (which is our best player now in MS) uses it. I saw him in Canadian championships a few years ago.

I agree that there are no "easy" point in badminton. But those tricks aren't deception as a hold at front or back court.

JR

**other** · 05-31-2004, 06:11 AM

the fast drive serve seems to work well in doubles as well....or i'm just crap....but still, instinctively most people block it back to the server, far too loose above the net and the shuttle gets killed.

or just being prepared after shot serves to take the shuttle off the net....but of course that's hard, otherwise everyone would be doing that.

**Dill** · 05-31-2004, 07:03 AM

Surely a fast point is only viable if it works against everyone?

If it only works against some people then it is just luck (or training), the problem arises when players do not return the shuttle in the predicted way which is why not all badminton players are alike.

Wizbit is mostly correct in his statement but fast points are mostly viable when playing aginst someone of a far lesser level, to get fast points you do need to speed up your game to be in front of the other player so to speak, but does it last?

**JRMTL** · 05-31-2004, 07:41 AM

Originally Posted by Dill

Surely a fast point is only viable if it works against everyone?

If it only works against some people then it is just luck (or training), the problem arises when players do not return the shuttle in the predicted way which is why not all badminton players are alike.

Wizbit is mostly correct in his statement but fast points are mostly viable when playing aginst someone of a far lesser level, to get fast points you do need to speed up your game to be in front of the other player so to speak, but does it last?

Nope, not necessaly. I saw Milroy doing some fast points against players in quaters and semis of the Canadian championships!!!

And the fast point I gave you would work in 80 to 90% of the time. Try it. I agree that you can't predict 100% of the time what the person would do, but you can "anticipate" more what your opponent will hit.

Perhaps the translation is not appropriate, but it doesn't mean a deception. We say in French: "points rapides", which I would transalte as "fast points".

So, I sign that wizbit is wrong!

Ps: "deception" is the same word in both languages just FWI

**Dill** · 05-31-2004, 08:13 AM

Actually I use drive serves to great effect (backhand though), the majority of the time they do not even come back over the net, the main aspect to a drive serve for me is to take a step back from where you would normally serve and to hit it hard AT your opponent so they are forced to hit it and unexpectedly they usually totaly misjudge the speed and mis hit or slice it right out of the court.

I'm not inferring deception I'm talking about plain basic play.

Sheldon many players will instinctivly try to turn your attacking seve into a drive to attack you back, but the more wise among us would indeed block to the net out wide at the posts or infact play a lift to the back corner, which although gives the lift away it is a very acceptable alternative in a game of doubles, not many would smash from the back line because it leaves too much space for the partner to cover.

**Gollum** · 05-31-2004, 09:16 AM

At elite levels of doubles play, responding to ANY serve with a lift is unacceptable. You will almost NEVER see a top player do this.

Obviously for the rest of us, it can be a necessary evil. We don't all have the skill to attack a drive serve. But it is something to aim for.

**Dill** · 05-31-2004, 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Gollum

At elite levels of doubles play, responding to ANY serve with a lift is unacceptable. You will almost NEVER see a top player do this.

Obviously for the rest of us, it can be a necessary evil. We don't all have the skill to attack a drive serve. But it is something to aim for.

Any lifts are seen as a bad thing I know but at the club/league level they can be an importaint thing in the arsenal of the player.

The reason was in the post I gave earlier in that many people shank or slice the shuttle out of the court leaving a lift the only other viable option.

But you are right in that the drive should always be attacked if possible.

**Gollum** · 05-31-2004, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by Dill

Any lifts are seen as a bad thing I know but at the club/league level they can be an importaint thing in the arsenal of the player.

Absolutely. At my sort of level, many players forget that sometimes a prudent lift can be worthwhile. Result: they try to attack beyond their capabilities and get exploited by Crafty Old Guys

**Winex West Can** · 05-31-2004, 11:46 AM

I think JRMTL is saying that you can get "fast" points by playing to the fact that a lot of players are trained ("conditioned") to react consistently to same conditions. That is, if you serve deep and high to the back T in singles, there are replies which are most likely be used by your opponent so you can "anticipate" those replies 80 to 90% of the time.

I would say that it is true but if your opponent is at or around your level, they will adjust rather quickly so that you might be able to get 1 or 2 points at the most.

**Wizbit** · 05-31-2004, 11:49 AM

Anticipation? now that's interesting, if you are being taught how to anticipate at a high level, and how to attack an anticipated shot then please share it with us

**TheGr8Two** · 05-31-2004, 12:12 PM

At the intermediate level in UW's badminton club, drive serves are quite effective, especially when it's at their backhand side and they stand way too far to their right.

But against advanced players..it's a crap shot. They can smash it right back, so partner and I have to be ready to defend it. I don't know if my partner gets upset if I do that though. So I use it only if they stand too close to the net.

**JRMTL** · 05-31-2004, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Dill

Actually I use drive serves to great effect (backhand though), the majority of the time they do not even come back over the net, the main aspect to a drive serve for me is to take a step back from where you would normally serve and to hit it hard AT your opponent so they are forced to hit it and unexpectedly they usually totaly misjudge the speed and mis hit or slice it right out of the court.

The only thing is, if you are taking a step back, you are giving a hint to your opponent that you will do a drive serve.

The best place for this serve, IMO, against a righthanded, is right on the T from the central line and the doubles line at the back of the court.

Originally Posted by Dill

I'm not inferring deception I'm talking about plain basic play.

That is what we talk about!

**JRMTL** · 05-31-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Winex West Can

I think JRMTL is saying that you can get "fast" points by playing to the fact that a lot of players are trained ("conditioned") to react consistently to same conditions. That is, if you serve deep and high to the back T in singles, there are replies which are most likely be used by your opponent so you can "anticipate" those replies 80 to 90% of the time.

I would say that it is true but if your opponent is at or around your level, they will adjust rather quickly so that you might be able to get 1 or 2 points at the most.

EXACTLY!!!

And, it is not only because they are "conditioned", but sometimes it is a physical fact.

**alzgodemort** · 06-04-2004, 04:31 PM

I know what he (JRMTL) and I agree with him. Also to a beginner/intermediate level can keep the other player from doing points by doing the following:

(single right-handed vs right-handed, right (pair ) side of the court)

he serve high, you go under the bird as fast as possible and then jump as high as possible, as if you were going to smash and you clear it to his bachand and wait for the weak return.
kill

***kwun*** · 06-04-2004, 04:47 PM

more about the concept of "fast points" that JRMTL pointed out.

badminton is a game of chance. every shot we make, we want to maximize the chance of winning that rally. for every choice of a shot, the chance (or probability) is a function of two things, how well the shot was executed, and how well the receiver is prepared to return that shot.

the scenarios can be:

good shot execution, good receiver -> low probability
good shot execution, bad receiver -> high probability
bad shot execution -> low probability

now, at the intermediate level that most of us are in, we are not as complete a badminton players as the top level / professional players, there are times when we are just not anticipating or not prepared for some shots. that will push us into the "bad receiver" category for the shot. and i think JRMTL is trying to exploit that, find the "surprising" shots, or fast point shots and see how much we can utilize those to our advantage.

now of course, ppl are smart beings and we learn with experience, chances are if we use these fast points too many a time, the opponents (especially regular opponents) will learn it quickly. but that's how we all learn, professionals have already learned about most of the "fast shots" in the process of them advancing in their defensive skills and unlikely we will be able to pull one off against them.

am i on the right track, JRMTL?