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  1. #35
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh
    FEND

    I'm confused! For you sounded more like a Malaysian thatn a Bruneian!

    Jug8man

    Please give FEND a chance to have some leeway. If he admires Yong and feels happy about receiving his shirt, let it be, esp when he is supposed to be studying for his exam now.

    Cheers!
    ok. i take your advice. i was just asking about the shirt. no problem with it.

    go read your books boy! (joke)

  2. #36
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    It looks like looking for scapegoat fever is upon us. First, it was Indonesia when they lost the Thomas Cup. The Chinese will now find some one to blame for letting the biggest prize-MS-slip away. Perhaps one or more coaches for each player, one for technical skills, another for fitness, yet another for tactics, and maybe another for the mental side? The Malaysian camp is now in turmoil, and everyone is so sure its all Misbun's fault. Or is it? Would you sing the same tune if either WCH or LCW had won a gold or silver? Sometimes, extreme disappointment can colour our judgement. How do you think the Koreans feel about letting a sure thing-XD-slip away? Some may say there must be a conspiracy. Why don't we look at the Danes? Are they blaming all and sundry for their failure?
    If Malaysia were to implement all Fend's suggestions, do you really think it would make any difference? Would hiring foreign coaches help? If we think so, then we are coming back one full circle. Nothing is worse than to offer and implement suggestions in the heat of the debacle. Cool down first. Then and only then do you do a post-mortem, and come up with suggestions.

  3. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wizbit
    Having a personal coach is essential for a players development and progress. I am just stating that some (a minority) players are too dependent on their coaches. Without a coach on the sideline, they are lost. Is it because of their lack of 'killer instinct'? Making comparisons in our sister sport, which has far more funding, the best player in the world at the moment, Roger Federer does not have a personal coach. He's doing pretty well for himself don't you think? (bar the Olympic performance).
    Federer does not have a coach at the moment. That is true. However, unfortunately, he is the exception.

    Just watched the tabletennis - players have their coaches at courtside.

    Well, in the end, all I can say is that it would not be right to make Misbun be the political scapegoat for the shortcomings of the administration. The administration is willing to make high level and famous appointments but there seems to be a lack of support. Morten Frost left. Park JB found himself doing lots of administrative work rather than being with players (or was it the the other way round with Frost doing less coaching?). Indra said the structure had to change and got booted out.............if Misbun goes, then one has to look at more underlying and fundamental problems.

    If I were Misbun, the fallout wouldn't affect me as there is the option of going back to NM and without the political burden. But as a M'sian, Misbun would be proud to lead the national team.....just remember, the BAM came looking for him!

  4. #38
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    It looks like looking for scapegoat fever is upon us. First, it was Indonesia when they lost the Thomas Cup. The Chinese will now find some one to blame for letting the biggest prize-MS-slip away. Perhaps one or more coaches for each player, one for technical skills, another for fitness, yet another for tactics, and maybe another for the mental side? The Malaysian camp is now in turmoil, and everyone is so sure its all Misbun's fault. Or is it? Would you sing the same tune if either WCH or LCW had won a gold or silver? Sometimes, extreme disappointment can colour our judgement. How do you think the Koreans feel about letting a sure thing-XD-slip away? Some may say there must be a conspiracy. Why don't we look at the Danes? Are they blaming all and sundry for their failure?
    If Malaysia were to implement all Fend's suggestions, do you really think it would make any difference? Would hiring foreign coaches help? If we think so, then we are coming back one full circle. Nothing is worse than to offer and implement suggestions in the heat of the debacle. Cool down first. Then and only then do you do a post-mortem, and come up with suggestions.
    hmmmmmmmm wise words. signs of an experienced character/individual. you must have weathered through a few rough storms?

  5. #39
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    Yes we are moaning about the same things, going round and round in circles. The same can be said about the British, no new talent blah blah blah, even though the Mixed is doing quite well...

    Maybe we need to see an injection of funds into Badminton to see any changes.

    I hear that Malaysian badminton players have lots of incentives, but if you take away these, then whos going to want to put the effort into it? In this day and age, "You can't buy everything with money, but with no money you can't buy anything!" The Danes are pretty lucky, as some of their star players could have flocked to another sport, namely football (soccer to you people)

    Badminton must be the most minor majority sport, if there is such a thing!
    Quote Originally Posted by jug8man
    hmmmmmmmm wise words. signs of an experienced character/individual. you must have weathered through a few rough storms?

  6. #40
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    Either way you look at it, Badminto is a major minor sport, or minor major sport.



    Quote Originally Posted by Wizbit
    Yes we are moaning about the same things, going round and round in circles. The same can be said about the British, no new talent blah blah blah, even though the Mixed is doing quite well...

    Maybe we need to see an injection of funds into Badminton to see any changes.

    I hear that Malaysian badminton players have lots of incentives, but if you take away these, then whos going to want to put the effort into it? In this day and age, "You can't buy everything with money, but with no money you can't buy anything!" The Danes are pretty lucky, as some of their star players could have flocked to another sport, namely football (soccer to you people)

    Badminton must be the most minor majority sport, if there is such a thing!

  7. #41
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    Cool restructure the adminstration

    In just few shorts years, Malaysia had Morten Frost, Park Jubong, Indra Gunawan and Misbun Sidek as head coaches with very similar poor results, so I don't think coaches are the problem of Malaysia badminton. Within these periods, Malaysia also produced capable players like Yong Hock Kin, Ong Ewe Hock, Hafiz, Roslin, Wong Choon Hann, Lee Tsuen Seng and Lee Chong Wei but all under-acheived(except Lee Chong Wei) in my opinion. I think it's time to look at the problem somewhere else on administrative side. Not sure why Cheah Soon Kit and Rashid Sidek were not included in the coaching staff flying to Athen as they are crucial in up to date preparation for each player under their charges.
    Lets just restructure the adminstration and see how it goes.

  8. #42
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEND.
    Loh, if you want to know why I'm more of a malaysian well it's because I am . Malaysian Chinese, born in Selangor, mom from malacca, dad from pahang. They came to brunei for job opportunities around 20 - 23 years back. SInce then I've been living here all my life, but have been patriotic to malaysia. I go back to Malaysia every year without fail, as there's no place like home.
    Thanks for your interesting disclosure!

    Your parents must be Malaysians and made sure you are born in in their own country and Selangor state as they have been in Brunei for more than 20 years and you are only 17 now. You must have been brought into the world during one of those annual home pilgrimages made by them!

    I admire your patriotism and the manner you put forward some of your arguments although I cannot seriously buy all of them.

    I still maintain that in the final analysis, it is the player who has to answer for himself.

    Although the time period is different, let me bring you back to the days of the first Thomas Cup held in 1949 at Queen's Hall in Preston, England. Malaya (Singapore was part of the team with Wong Peng Soon and Ong Poh Lim representing) stunned the badminton world when they beat Denmark
    8-1.

    Hitherto, no Asian team was known to be so strong as the All England, which was then the de facto world championship that started as early as 1900, was dominated by the West, principally players from England, Ireland, Denmark, Sweden and even the USA, with their most famous singles player, Dave Freemann. But since the appearance of the Malayans in 1949, it was the turn for Asians to dominate, with Denmark (particularly Erland Kops, 5 times champ and Morten Frost, 4 times) being the only European country to spoil the aspirations of the Indonesians, Malaysians, Chinese and Indians.

    Of course one reason for the non-participation of the Asians in the All England during the early years was probably the lack of funds and the long distances they have to travel, often by sea. Yes, the first Malayan team had to brave the seas for many days (maybe a month!) to arrive in England in unfriendly cold weather in order to compete. Yet they demolished the Danish opposition 8-1. I don't think the Malayan players have better facilities or proper management than their Western counterparts at that time. Better coaches, probably unheard of!

    Malaya went on to repeat the TC story in 1955 when they handed Denmark another 8-1 beating in Singapore. And what was more astounding was this same player, Wong Peng Soon. At age 37, I repeat 37, Wong put up a superlative display by defeating, I presume, a much younger Joern Skaarup in three sets (then it was called 'set' and not 'game' as is now the case)
    15-5, 16-18 and 15-4. The next day, he followed up with another scintillating performance and showed tremendous fighting spirit coming from behind with a first set loss of 12-15 to whip the great Finn Kobbero 15-0 in the second. He wrapped up the third set and match, 15-7.

    What I'm trying to emphasize is that the PLAYER himself makes the difference. Badminton maestro, Wong Peng Soon, is a shining example of sporting greatness for he lived for badminton. The limitations and shortcomings he faced during his time never quite affected him as he pursued his only goal and ambition to be the best badminton player in the world!

  9. #43
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    Default The different between a fighter and player who looking for incentives

    From my observation, yupp, not only in Badminton but overall, Malaysia sportsmen and sportswomen have been rewarded with high incentives, extra bonus (if they win any tournaments). Beside secure a job at banks, they also get allowance, and I always heard some parents said "No need to enter university, just good in one sport and you will become rich."

    Which is quite sad for me to hear that sentence. The environment has "evolved" the player become a gold digger who only play well when he get rewarded.

    Malaysia players are lack of "fighting spirit." I can't see the same fighting spirit that shown by Lee-Ra during the bronze medal game with Chinese pair.

    Misbun could be right about the focus and concentration on three players. But obviously the NSC may need to increase the budget for training and taxpayers like me will have to pay higher tax to support the training budget.

    In other games like swimming, government has provide them full scholarship to train at USA for years and no result, none of them go through to final even the former asia champion, Lim Keng Liat.

    After the session, their comment, they are not satisfy with the coach and wish to come back to Malaysia. At the first place, they left Malaysia for overseas because they complaint Local trainers unable to boast up their performance.

    The NSC need to be strict with the guidelines and explore more talents than depend on these seniors who only know how to juggling their words.
    I think the amount to be spend on the intensive project to get local talents will be cheaper than the 4 years abroad.

  10. #44
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    I think the 1st to go should be the BAM commitees. There is no point having the best coaches in the world but managed by a a lousy Badminton Assoc. The political parties should not be involved in sports.

    We have almost appointed all the best coaches in the world but ended up with most of them left due the too much interferance by BAM in thier coaching method &/or team selection. I think the coach should be given the full authority. LIke EPL the managers will always have the last say.

    Stop giving any excuse like BAM is short of funds to train the players or etc. Even Iraq foodballers can reach semifinals. Just accept that we, BAM, are lousy.

    I don't see any hope in malaysia badminton if they continue to run by the same team. This is exactly what had happened to the Malaysia football team as well.

  11. #45
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    Loh, I think we cannot look so far back as those years. The current demands and standards of the game require a different approach.

    Suffice to say, for M'sia, outcomes have been less than satisfactory despite coaches and players. So other aspects of the administration may need to be altered.

  12. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Han
    In just few shorts years, Malaysia had Morten Frost, Park Jubong, Indra Gunawan and Misbun Sidek as head coaches with very similar poor results, so I don't think coaches are the problem of Malaysia badminton. Within these periods, Malaysia also produced capable players like Yong Hock Kin, Ong Ewe Hock, Hafiz, Roslin, Wong Choon Hann, Lee Tsuen Seng and Lee Chong Wei but all under-acheived(except Lee Chong Wei) in my opinion. I think it's time to look at the problem somewhere else on administrative side. Not sure why Cheah Soon Kit and Rashid Sidek were not included in the coaching staff flying to Athen as they are crucial in up to date preparation for each player under their charges.
    Lets just restructure the adminstration and see how it goes.
    mmm. If my hunch is not wrong, the reason why CSK and RS din go along with the troup is because they say they 'have limited seats for coaches' to the trip to athens. Which I would translate as, some jerk of an idiot who doesn't even know much bout the sport goes in the place of a sportsman / coach.

    I'll post my more in-depth views on the rest of the posts on thursday, when I can relaxingly drink my cup of coffee and stary typing in peace.

  13. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEND.
    This is how modern sports training should be carried out not 'kampung' style training. That's how one should improve sports. If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER.

    Just a thought.

    Anyone agrees / disagrees? Please put your views.
    I'd like to quote myself on this one. I did not say we should go with the foreigners and chuck our local ones. if you seee the "If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER" I'd like to rephrase that to Get better coaches who are better than ours even if they happened to be foreigners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung
    Well, in the end, all I can say is that it would not be right to make Misbun be the political scapegoat for the shortcomings of the administration. The administration is willing to make high level and famous appointments but there seems to be a lack of support. Morten Frost left. Park JB found himself doing lots of administrative work rather than being with players (or was it the the other way round with Frost doing less coaching?). Indra said the structure had to change and got booted out.............if Misbun goes, then one has to look at more underlying and fundamental problems.
    I'd a mention on that in the earlier post. The administration bit. Not many looked at it though, as they tried to bombard me with on my points regarding Misbun Sidek. I previously typed that first statement out because currently I do not see a head coach ready to take over or rather I do not see anyone in Malaysia capable of holding such a post.

    Quote Originally Posted by FEND
    So it's down to this. Malaysian mentality. 2: BAM needs to listen to advice. Not live in their fantasy land when we won the Thomas Cup in 1992. Misbun definitely must go. I do not see any progress in Malaysian Badminton. More of a backwards kinda of thing. If we had progress why hasn't our womens players improved? Why has it stayed stagnent or rather outdated?
    mmm. I do not think anyone paid attention to this small paragraph as everyone seemed to be in the hype to spray the ammunition against my 1 by 1 kevlar vest. If jug8man has said that our malaysian badminton has improved. Answer my question above. And jug8man has not addressed the bit on malaysian mentality and about the BAM listening to advice.

    Misbun sidek was holding the most important link between the BAM and the players. If he knew what was right for them, he should've been firm and stood up to the BAM and show them why he needed the extra staff, why he needed this not just sit back and lie down.

    So, what are you views again, as I tried to make it clear for the rest of the forumers here.

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    Well, i think the Malaysian did try their best in the Olympic Games but just not good enough to win a medal. The players , i believe have give their best to prepare for the Olympic games and surely it is a disappointment for the nation that they couldn't bring home any medal. I've heard a lots of opinion about the Malaysian performance in the Olympic Games , some say they don't have the fighting spirit, some say they are not prepare well , and others blame it on coaches, but personally i think it is more than that. The pressure to win a medal is too much even before the went for Olympic....... so what exactly is the problem with them? We cannot really know because we are not in their shoes , the answer only lies with them.
    In another way, their lost might able to bring new hope for the junior. As currently , i believe after the seniors retired , there won't be much quality player left in the national team for another 5 years...... the juniors are below par compare with the current world junior standard....... It is the time for BAM to think about the long term program to invest in more talented and potential young player instead of putting too much concentration in the national team and completely abandon the school/state development program. The state no longer active anymore as they don't have money to run their program.
    Singapore is very wise to introduce the National Sport School for a long term goal to produce the world class athlete..... certainly Malaysia should follow their example. The coaches are particularly uneffective not in terms of coaching but communication skills........ they are constantly rivalry among the local coaches and foreign coaches in terms of salary and results...... the local coach are very much jealous of the foreign coaches good pay and they believe they can do the same but the main intention is still money.
    To save the Malaysia Badminton , the association have to plan a systematic solution and change their mindset. The veteran players such as tan aik Huang, Tan Yee Khan , Ng Boon Bee all had given advise but no one pay attention to it........ Malaysian players are too individualistic in my opinion...
    no unity, no team spirit....... not that they really want to but it is from young they have been brought up like that by the coaches. Even the singles players were against the doubles players as a result of the rivalry betwwen single coach and double coach..... as a result , Malaysia always fail in the team event .
    In short , invest in a batch of young players and taught them the right mentality , a true champion's attitude and sportmanship spirit, and also unity among the players.... Many coaches left out the important part of bringing the player's characteristic inside and outside the court...... what's the point to have produce a champion but without a right attitude as a person? To learn badminton is not only to master the skill but along the way , to learn to be a good person as well.....

  15. #49
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEND.
    .
    before i start spraying ammunition like you have put it, i would like to say im very impressed with some of your views and ever willingness to share your opinions on current issues. especially at your age when almost everyone at that age normally wouldnt give a hoot about current issues. though i do tend to find that your views tend to sway towards idealism, bare in mine that that is just my opinion. nothing more.

    im begining to think that you are the son of a malaysian ambasador i brunei or something. either way you have critical thinking and commendable ability in expressing yourself and your views.... cheers.


    now lets get it started...........


    1) "If your coaches aren't up to it, GET FOREIGN ONES WHO ARE DAMN WELL BETTER" I'd like to rephrase that to Get better coaches who are better than ours even if they happened to be foreigners.

    im happy you have rephrased that sentence though to a certain extent you are still insinuating that we do not have the resource in able coaches. i do not agree.

    2) ...my points regarding Misbun Sidek. I previously typed that first statement out because currently I do not see a head coach ready to take over or rather I do not see anyone in Malaysia capable of holding such a post.

    if this was trully how you feel, you should have stated this long before the olympics and not after. now this statement has very little credibility just like how Taneepak put it "the scapegoat fever is upon us". your opinion however well presented or 'fact-based' is now standing in a very long line of similar but most likely baseless and emotional accusations and pointing of fingers. your point does not look very solid now to me sad to say.

    also what great survey and scouting of development programs have you done in malaysia that can justify your view on no capable-credible coaches. most of the important ppl are behind the scenes to busy actually developing the sports from the grassroots than to bask in the media/press. they are all highly capable if given the task and responsibility. so is misbun IMHO.


    3) I'd a mention on that in the earlier post. The administration bit. Not many looked at it though

    i went through your first post. dont see anything that really suggest that you had mentioned about the administration bit.

    4) mmm. I do not think anyone paid attention to this small paragraph as everyone seemed to be in the hype to spray the ammunition against my 1 by 1 kevlar vest. If jug8man has said that our malaysian badminton has improved. Answer my question above.

    no development in women badminton....... i put that more to the malaysian culture. besides that i dont really see them being supported by the governing body. they get very little exposure and almost all the funds are spent on the men. imagine if you were the top malaysian badminton women player, you train 2 whole year only to be sent for the bi-annual sea games and thats about it... of course no dev lah and no incentive to stay in the team.

    and as you know dev of the sport is BAM responsibility and every malaysian citizen. not really just the head coach. his job is to handles the players going for tournaments and their preparation. in results like i have said 2003-2004 has been a satisfactory year compared to the previous years for malaysian badminton. we are actually seeing some women getting their brake and earning their respect as well. note WD and WS to a degree of relative improvement. Rome not built in a day lah kawan (friend in malay language)!

    5) And jug8man has not addressed the bit on malaysian mentality and about the BAM listening to advice.

    hello? have you not read my first post in this thread? in what way did i not bazooka and machine gun and 200 meter sniper our malaysian mentality? perhaps that wasnt enough for you? re-read the post pls.

    BAM is a total diff issue. for all i know it is common practice for administrators in malaysia to meddle with the coaches work. and they always decide on a lot of stuff and dont really care what coaches think....... just look at malaysian football, national level and state level.

    6) Misbun sidek was holding the most important link between the BAM and the players. If he knew what was right for them, he should've been firm and stood up to the BAM and show them why he needed the extra staff, why he needed this not just sit back and lie down.

    ah such beautiful idealism. i do miss the more innocent days....

    7) i remember you comparing malaysian badminton players to english soccer club players. just look at the diff in income. badders are pretty much middleclass citizens in malaysia to say the most. footballers on the other hand in England make hundred of thousands or even millions annualy. and the best part is they dont really need to perform internationaly cause they make big bucks just playing within the country and etc.
    also, since badders in malaysia are middle class citizens having to slog like a dog day in day out, plus the added pressure placed by the country, wouldnt it be so much easier for them, to just retire to a normal life with less stress and about the same if not more earnings from a normal job/business? this pretty much shows the lack of incentive for young talent to follow through in malaysia. it is how the economy is structured.

    cheers

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    How come the sudden torrent of critical comments/opinions only now where there were none before the Olympic Games? Why now, and not before? This is a sixtyfour-thousand question I am throwing at our instant and born-again critics. Where were you before? I even have a feeling that had Malaysia won a medal, which, frankly speaking, is not "even-stevens", the stuff now appearing in this thread would take a different turn.
    The reason why there were no such critical comments before are either they had none or, if they had, they were afraid to make themselves a laughing stock should events turn out differently. After the event there are a thousand and one critics. Before? Deafening silence!

  17. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by FEND.
    With respect to your statement. On point 5, our wealth and knowledge + specialisation is almost nothing compared to the rest of the world. When I mean rest of the world, I do not mean the West. I am talking of Japan, Korea, China, SINGPOARE and stuff. NO ONE IN THE WORLD CAN SURVIVE BEING A GENERALIST. Believe me I know. If you want to know why it's the same principle as it is in Economics. I would not go and touch on it now. If we are so good, why have we had to play catch up in terms of technology? Better education? Infrastructure? International Trade? Malaysia is not a country full of what I would term 'pro' people. However we do have people who can be 'pro.' However our people here do not even know how to get there. Want an example? Intel. Nvidia. ATI. AMD. IBM. Microsoft. Do you possibly think that we would've invented all these first? No history has shown it. Our way of laid back thinking and as mahathir calls something like 'kais pagi makan pagi, kais malam makan malam' english translation : work morning eat in the morning, work at night eat at night, but the meaning is clear. We only work just to satisfy our immediate wants. We do not seem to care about progress as the rest of the world.

    This does not only apply to sports in our country but rather the other parts like our economy and stuff. Without outside help, we would be stuck in a padigram which will limit us and push us back into the stone age. Unless Malaysia opens up to the new ideas, we will be what the malays call 'seperti katak di bawah tempurong' which means like a frog under an empty half coconut shell. Meaning : One who is narrow minded. As the frog only sees so little, it thinks only so little. Do you think also that we would be able to launch measat the satelite into orbit? Without russian technology? Hell no.


    mmm.

    i highly recommend that you read up on these issues/subjects

    1) abraham Maslow's hierarchy of needs. connect this to economic theories and then find a relation between economic activity and development funds for sport from opposite ends of the spectrum.

    2) national sovereignity issues. differentiate sovereign with freedom and with independence. then compare the diff in malaysian history with great britain, japan or USA.

    thorough reading these im sure you will find out why IMHO your idealistic views are not really practical in the real world scenario.

    cheers
    Last edited by jug8man; 08-26-2004 at 11:57 PM.

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