The biggest loser in the Athens Olympics

[abedeng]

Of course, I'm not the fan of Chinese National Team and I'm glad Taufik defeats Korean but I'd like to see two energic players combat for Gold medal.

Yeah, that was the only final that was kind of disappointing, Shon was totally at sea. Taufik/Wong CH or Taufik/Gade matchup would have been a better final. What can we say, the draw was unkind to some players, but Taufik and the people of Indonesia still deserved the Gold Medal. Wonder how many Indonesians in Indonesia got to watch that game?

[dlp]

If we consider what most fans consider the two premier events, md and ms then clearly korea are the massive winners, with an unexpected silver in ms and gold, silver in md.

In the womens events there is only really two singles players and one doubles pair who are competitive with the chinese. Camilla is gone and unless Hallam can make a big improvement , she is already 29, the future looks bleak for european womens events. So the chinese did well and met expectations, with 2 golds and a silver, although they would have expected the all chinese final in ws. The question is with the lack of competition do these medals really mean as much?

The mixed event was the one event everyone thought they knew the winners of, surely one of the most shocking results in the olympics was the "unbeatable" kim/ra losing, credit to Denmark. Yes, Zhang/Ling beat the pairs they had to but they had a remarkably easy draw.

Denmark also are big losers however, their mens doubles pairs, holding the world and ae titles failed to medal and Gade also crashed out, meanwhile Camilla's retirement will sadden all european fans.

[other]

The question is with the lack of competition do these medals really mean as much?

Of course they still mean as much....I mean its not the CHN player's fault that they got 1,3,4....they still had to beat their opponents, who i'm sure tried hard. They were just better, and therefore shouldn't they deserve the medals?

it's like saying that there's a lack of compeition in the sailing in the olympics and people like ben ainsile's gold don't mean as much.

[dlp]

There may be a lack of competetion in sailing, I don't know

Surely not all events are equally competitive. For instance England are no.2/3 in rugby and cricket. There are only 4/5 nations in the chase in these sports and they are relatively minor sports in those countries so do I think that England being no.1 in thsoe sports equates to being no.1 in football or badminton singles, not at all.

In swimming one guy can have a shot at 8 medals, basically off the same training, stroke etc, the difference in distance betwen 100m, 200m, 400m has little effect. Do I think a swimmer winning 3 golds, 2 silver etc is worth more than 1 gold in badminton,of course not.

In rowing we always win a gold in the mens, but we pick the discipline we have best chance of winning and put our best rowers in that, one year the fours, another the pairs while the best rowers from other countries may be in the eights.

Similarly you cannot really compare success in the womens events for china to success in the mens events. In the womens singles there are only 5 (at a stretch) players capable of winning the title , in the doubles the top 4 pairs probably won't lose in year to anyone outside the top four.

In the mens events anyone of the top 15 players/pairs can win and many world class players don't even make the qualifying for olympics

I'm not saying it is china's fault or that those players don't deserve every reward or don't work as hard, just that the events aren't as competitive that the chance of success for those players is far higher, and that as a fan or coach you would have an expectation of winning those events.

[edwin]

Remember the 1992 Barcelona Olympics when he and Tian bingyi defeated our Cheah and Soo via gamesmanship. Looking back, i think that match probably cost us a medal as the malaysians would have gone on to proceed to the semi-finals with ease.

I wasn't following badminton closely at that time. What happened in Barcelona? How did LYB and Tian Bingyi defeat Chean and Soo bia gamesmanship?

[abedeng]

I wasn't following badminton closely at that time. What happened in Barcelona? How did LYB and Tian Bingyi defeat Chean and Soo bia gamesmanship?

They used some gamesmanship and delaying tactics to throw off Cheah/Soo's momentum. At that moment, the Chinese were trailing in the 2nd game after having lost the first.

Since Cheah/Soo were still young at that time, it affected them much like Jane Hancock's effect on Choong/Lee. Plus being raw meant they did not yet learn energy conservation. In the decider, it was all China.

Had Cheah/Soo won this, they could have gone on to the final cos their next hurdle at the semis would be Eddy Hartono/Gunawan, with whom they enjoyed a good record. Doesn't matter, the best pair in the world (Professor Park/Kim) would still have won gold anyway.

[jug8man]

They used some gamesmanship and delaying tactics to throw off Cheah/Soo's momentum. At that moment, the Chinese were trailing in the 2nd game after having lost the first.

Since Cheah/Soo were still young at that time, it affected them much like Jane Hancock's effect on Choong/Lee. Plus being raw meant they did not yet learn energy conservation. In the decider, it was all China.

Had Cheah/Soo won this, they could have gone on to the final cos their next hurdle at the semis would be Eddy Hartono/Gunawan, with whom they enjoyed a good record. Doesn't matter, the best pair in the world (Professor Park/Kim) would still have won gold anyway.

delaying tactics, throwing opponents off their rhythms and etc is not wrong as long as they are in the legal boundaries of the game. actually it is an essential part of any sport especially badminton since it involves players confronting each other and not like bowling or golf where one players performance does not directly effect the other players.

badminton is more that just an athletics sport where the one with the best ability will win. badminton is still very much a game, and in winning games it involves alot more than just ability. it is the person that 'plays' the game the best that comes out on top..... ala Triple H

any player that fails to maintain their own composure is at fault and not others who take advantage of it.

wake up Malaysia!

[seven]

Delaying the game is forbidden, it's in the rules!

[jug8man]

Delaying the game is forbidden, it's in the rules!

to what extent? it is not really specific. did you see any delaying tactics in the olympics? i saw many. sometimes it was even mutual acts of delaying tactics (example= MS bronze match). sometimes it wasnt (example= XD final)

example of delaying tactics such as 'purposely falling' to get a breather for a mop job, changing shuttles when its actually still 'good', questioning line judges calls, and such. these are not direct delaying actions and gives the umpire a reasonable doubt whether the player is on purpose delaying the game. if there is reason for doubt most referees can not simply jump to the conclusion that the player is delaying the game. this is because it is the players right to request for shuttle change, mopping the floor, 'time out', and question line calls. even though the request gets rejected.

and crime is only a 'crime' (means recorded as a crime) when you are caught doing it, and in badminton it is when you are penalized by the umpire.

then if you go in deeper into the actual situation, every umpire/referee have difference in level of strictness and diff 'boundaries' to determine if one has commited an offence or not. if a player can 'read' an umpire's boundaries, the player may take advantage of that situation without getting a penalty. its all very subjective of course.........

just stating what i see going on in tournaments. coz everything is not all that black and white. just my opinion

cheers

[seven]

to what extent? it is not really specific. did you see any delaying tactics in the olympics? i saw many. sometimes it was even mutual acts of delaying tactics (example= MS bronze match). sometimes it wasnt (example= XD final)

I haven't yet had chance to watch the matches , I was only giving a general statement about the rules!

example of delaying tactics such as 'purposely falling' to get a breather for a mop job, changing shuttles when its actually still 'good', questioning line judges calls, and such. these are not direct delaying actions and gives the umpire a reasonable doubt whether the player is on purpose delaying the game.

Questionning line calls IS forbidden too! The umpire can give a yellow card for this!

if there is reason for doubt most referees can not simply jump to the conclusion that the player is delaying the game. this is because it is the players right to request for shuttle change, mopping the floor, 'time out', and question line calls. even though the request gets rejected.

It's up to the umpire to judge whether the player is delaying the game on purpose or not. He is the one who takes the decisions.

and crime is only a 'crime' (means recorded as a crime) when you are caught doing it, and in badminton it is when you are penalized by the umpire.

then if you go in deeper into the actual situation, every umpire/referee have difference in level of strictness and diff 'boundaries' to determine if one has commited an offence or not. if a player can 'read' an umpire's boundaries, the player may take advantage of that situation without getting a penalty. its all very subjective of course.........

just stating what i see going on in tournaments. coz everything is not all that black and white. just my opinion

cheers

Yes, umpiring is subjective, that's what makes it so difficult!
And of course players search for boundaries, there is a clear sort of game between the players and the umpires...

The best example I have is Nabil Lasmari : he's the french number one (though he's crap) and he is famous for being the first player of badminton history to receive a black card... mainly due to delaying the game in the first place!
Why does he have this habit of delaying the game? (except for his poor stamina of course )
Simply because most french umpires are incompetent and always let him delay the game as much as he wants! There are no boundaries for him!

[dlp]

On the subject of umpiring it amazes me how poor the umpires are at these major finals, I mean if these are the best umpires what are the others like?

Example: Chinese bending rules in mixed final, ignoring umpire, causing umpire to pressure lineman into changing call

WS final, On gold medal point mia gets debatable call, protests (not as much as Zhang in mixed) Mia gets yellow card, on match point!

AE md final...well you know

Umpires simply stick the rules and don't get involved in the match unless you have to, don't start getting involved at the crucial part of the match, set up the boundaries at the start and stick to it.

[jug8man]

I haven't yet had chance to watch the matches , I was only giving a general statement about the rules!


Questionning line calls IS forbidden too! The umpire can give a yellow card for this!

LOL: lots of love

is it forbiden? goes to show how many times ive read 'laws of badminton'
even if so, you have to agree that it still happens alot in matches without being penalized/enforced right?

and about the umpires, sometimes they are made to look just like toothless (and clawless) tigers dont you think?


cheers

[seven]

LOL: lots of love

I don't know where you got that (funny) one but LOL has always meant "Laughing Out Loud". (I don't see why we would write "lots of love" each time there is something funny!! )

is it forbiden? goes to show how many times ive read 'laws of badminton'
even if so, you have to agree that it still happens alot in matches without being penalized/enforced right?

and about the umpires, sometimes they are made to look just like toothless (and clawless) tigers dont you think?


cheers

I've already seen players getting a red card for questionning line calls.
If the umpire doesn't react, the player may manage to put pressure on linesmen so that they advantage him, that's why it's forbidden! (it's an attempt to take an illegal advantage on the opponent)

[jug8man]

I don't know where you got that (funny) one but LOL has always meant "Laughing Out Loud". (I don't see why we would write "lots of love" each time there is something funny!! )


I've already seen players getting a red card for questionning line calls.
If the umpire doesn't react, the player may manage to put pressure on linesmen so that they advantage him, that's why it's forbidden! (it's an attempt to take an illegal advantage on the opponent)

i dont use LOL for funny things but actually use it for showing i understand with what you mean/or what you are going thru. something about showing friendship camaradie and stuff. i get this often elsewhere though

yeah but howabout non confrontational questioning line calls. which means the player asks/complains/queries the umpire not the linesman about the 'dubious' line calls made. i dont believe this directly intimidates the linesman. also i still think the player has a right to fight for the right if he feels he's getting the shorter end of the stick.

LOL

[seven]

yeah but howabout non confrontational questioning line calls. which means the player asks/complains/queries the umpire not the linesman about the 'dubious' line calls made. i dont believe this directly intimidates the linesman. also i still think the player has a right to fight for the right if he feels he's getting the shorter end of the stick.

LOL

In fact, you are allowed to ask the umpire to have a linesman changed if you think he is giving bad calls.
You are just not allowed to question the calls that have been made.
(anyway the umpire doesn't have the right to change the linesman call so it would be useless)

[jug8man]

In fact, you are allowed to ask the umpire to have a linesman changed if you think he is giving bad calls.
You are just not allowed to question the calls that have been made.
(anyway the umpire doesn't have the right to change the linesman call so it would be useless)

actually the latest development is that IBF is experimenting by allowing the umpires to change the linesman call if neccesary. for how long before they finally decide on what's best im not sure.

LOL

[jump_smash]

In fact, you are allowed to ask the umpire to have a linesman changed if you think he is giving bad calls.
You are just not allowed to question the calls that have been made.
(anyway the umpire doesn't have the right to change the linesman call so it would be useless)

Well said Seven, that is what the Referee is for. Players have right to call for Referee

Regards

Stuart