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  1. #18
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    I am totally convinced!!!

    From now on, I will buy all JP racquets if possible. You know it's really hard to get JP racquets in US... LuxisSport and other Chinese shops are selling JP racquets WAY overpriced!!! It would be nice if there's an online shop that sells JP racquets for a good price (the price that they sell in Japan) and can ship overseas. Payment methods is also very important... PayPal, Money Order, Check, Or maybe Credit card are acceptable. I don't like Bank transfer or Western Union and other methods.

    Does such shop exist???

  2. #19
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    How did I post it here!!!???

  3. #20
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    Default White Men -can- Jump !

    I would characterize the standing long jump as a (2-legged) hop. My dictionary defines hop thusly:to move by leaping or springing on both (or all) feet at once...

    I used the word hop to denote the simultaneous action of both legs. Many species of birds use this 2-legged hop. There is also a one-leg hop, but this is a different definition of the word hop altogether... not the one I intended.
    Well it seems we had opposite definitions of jump and hop.
    I consider jump to be the more general term with hop typically referring to a one-footed jump.
    So you think standing long jump should more properly be called standing long hop?

    dictionary.com-- not the most reliable dictionary but some type of standard I suppose has the following definitions:

    jump ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jmp)
    v. jumped, jump·ing, jumps
    v. intr.



      1. To spring off the ground or other base by a muscular effort of the legs and feet.
      2. To move suddenly and in one motion: jumped out of bed.
      3. To move involuntarily, as in surprise: jumped when the phone rang.
      4. To parachute from an aircraft.




      1. Informal. To move quickly; hustle: Jump when I give you an order.
      2. To take prompt advantage; respond quickly: jump at a bargain.
    v. tr.



    1. To leap over or across: jump a fence.
    2. To leap onto: jump a bus.
    3. Slang. To spring upon in sudden attack; assault or ambush: Muggers jumped him in the park.
    hop1 ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hp)
    v. hopped, hop·ping, hops
    v. intr.
      1. To move with light bounding skips or leaps.
      2. Informal. To move quickly or busily: The shipping department is hopping this week.
    1. To jump on one foot.
    n.



      1. A light springy jump or leap, especially on one foot.
      2. A rebound: The ball took a bad hop.
    However given that it is not a sports dictionary, we can accept your definition of jump and hop. Which brings us back to the original question-- when receiving the flick serve is it best to use a "two-legged hop", "one-legged hop", "jump" backward or quick step(s) then "jump" backward?

    The one-legged hop can probably be ruled out as it accomplishes little.
    The jump backward takes more time than a two-legged hop. There is also a tradeoff between time spent pre-loading the second foot to give increased power and momentum decrease from pushoff of the first foot. The quick steps then jump backward would only be effective if you can outrun the initial speed of the bird by a considerable margin as you would be pushed back further in the court so that even if you were to take the shuttle at the same height, the angle of attack would not be as generous.

    Either way, as you spring either forward or backward, I maintain that the weight is probably no longer even as the motion is initiated. You would initially drive with 1 leg more than the other to get movement either forward or backward. The other leg can provide some secondary drive at first. After the initial push, the 2nd leg then can provide the primary driving force.
    So you're suggesting that there is no such thing as a two-legged hop when the feet commence in a staggered position? Or possibly more accurately that one can only execute a two-legged hop in the direction perpendicular to the vertical plane formed between your two feet?

    Perhaps some forward or backward movement is possible w/o a detectable shift in weight from foot to the other from a staggered foot postition. However, I do not believe that you can get an appreciable amt of fwd or backward movment w/o shifting the weight (and therfore driving with 1 leg more than the other initially).
    Okay then. Say, as the defender you chose to adopt a non-staggered position due to your opponents' preponderance to serve short and to the T or short and to the sideline. Would you agree that a two-legged hop in this situation to receive the flick serve would be more effective than jumping?

    Perhaps we may find it necessary to do some pressure plate studies to resolve this. On a side note: pressure plate studies done with tennis serves show that players that adopt a pinpoint leg drive (feet together) generate a little more leg driving force than those that use a platform leg drive (feet apart).
    I don't doubt it. In badminton as the receiver it would be impractical to put both feet together as I'm sure you're aware. This pressure plate idea is a good one-- please report back when you're done. In the receiving stance, some level of pre-loading can occur on both feet so it becomes a question of whether leaping off of both feet simultaneously or leaping off of a single more greatly pre-loaded foot provides greater height, distance, speed, etc.

    English please! Are proprioceptors the ones that I described as telling us the location of our muscles & tendons? Altho' I get the gist of what you are saying here, I'm sure that you lost most of our other readers with the use of the terms afferent, efferent, somatic, etc.

    Anyway, thanx for the educational tidbit here... I was not aware that we naturally have differing degrees of myelination.
    Similarly, some readers might not be familiar with what myelin is but that didn't stop you from introducing it. Proprioceptors are indeed as you described. And the vocab used is commensurate with the topic you chose. If you wanted to talk in layman's terms then you should have introduced a thread on "Badminton and TV" and we could go around saying 'don't have a cow man' or "Badminton and Women"-- hrmm... then again maybe there would not be much to talk about for the latter topic-- from having read other threads it seems like badminton players aren't too smooth with da ladiez. [no offense anyone/everyone ]

    Selective demyelination makes sense (but I don't really know if it is true or not). I don't agree with you conclusion tho'. Some MS sufferers move slower but also move in a spastic, unbalanced manner. If the do not receive signals (via myelinated nerves) telling them of the location & movement of muscles & tendon in a timely manner, then locomotion becomes very difficult.
    Mmm? I thought my explanations were meant to describe why they move in spastic, unbalanced manners rather than why they just move slowly? There is probably a component of movement that is accurate and conscious and a component that requires constant correction and is performed subconsciously to align with the consciously desired movements. The latter would be more affected by MS if this is the case.

    My readings on the subject indicate that such conversions do not happen. I have come across 1 or 2 sources that imply that the conversions do happen, but they did not go into any detail & did not appear to be reliable (expert)sources (obviously written by lay ppl w/o any references listed).

    I'll have to look at the links you provided when I have more time & access to a faster ISP connection.
    If after browsing the links I posted and reading up on it some more you still feel that conversion between the different muscle fibre types is not possible then I'm fine with that. I'm pretty easy going and you seem like a bright young lad so I'll accept it.

    I certainly agree that badmiton players require endurance. Obviously, they could not perform well if 100% of their leg muscles consisted of IIb fibers. There needs to be something of a balance. What I was trying to get across is that elite badminton players often have the ability to jump higher or move more quickly (backward in the case of a flick) than the average person because, in part, they posses a higher %-age of IIb fibers than the average person.
    And I think the point I was trying to get across was that elite athletes probably have more muscle fibres (quantity) and larger muscles (training) and that the percentage of the various types of muscle fibres in an elite badminton player probably aren't that different from your average person and can probably be attained by your average individual. When talking about composition type / percentages-- everything must sum up to 100% in the final analysis-- no such restrictions are in place for the number of muscle fibres or the size of them.

    They say that white men can't jump! This is genetic... the averge European or white American can't jump as high as the average black. Basketball in the US has evolved from a white sport to a sport dominated by black players who can jump considerably higher than their predecessors. Some has to do with training but a large part lot of this has to do with the higher levels of IIb fibers that these individuals were blessed with at birth.
    Well... at least your stories and the many analogies you come up with are certainly entertaining even if they do just play on stereotypes.

    I'll have to disagree though. Basketball players don't actually jump very high. They're definitely tall and the hoop is only 10 feet tall-- they really don't need to jump that high to dunk the ball.

    Volleyball-- now there's a real sport where you need to jump high.
    And what do you know-- here's a link of the USA men's volleyball team:
    http://www.volleyball-pictures.com/r...ational%20Team
    And what do you know-- the USA players are white!

    From this I guess I can infer that white men can jump!
    And in fact, they jump higher than black men.
    The top 4 teams in the Athens Olympics for men's volleyball:
    Brazil, Italy, Russia, USA.

    It can probably be said that black men jump more powerfully than white men since they tend to be bigger and stronger but with the additional size comes additional weight. They are probably able to jump around the same in terms of height but with one weighing more than the other, one has more power in their jump with the end result being you're not likely to pay to watch a white man dunk.

    No matter how hard I train, I am never going to develop a 42" vertical leap that some volleyball & basketball players posses. By the same token, a world-class sprinter is never going to win the Boston Marathon. Muscle fiber types can't be altered to that degree in an individual.
    These are extreme cases. A world-class sprinter cares almost exclusively about fast-twitch fibres. Badminton players, as much as they might like to think they are, are not engaging in an extreme sport. You don't need a 42" vertical and very very few people have this. Even those basketball players who supposedly have 40" verticals rarely get above 36. It's all hype-- don't believe the hype.

  4. #21
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    Seems the topic is digressing a bit too far from the original topic.

    Wether one decides to hop, jump, leap sideways, sidestep back, turn body to smash(or not) to receive a flick serve depends on the quality of the flick serve as well as the ability of the receiver and his inherent biological characteristics.

    Decreasing reaction depends on a LOT of factors. One could decrease the one's own reaction time just by paying more attention to the service action of the server.

    As a side note;
    Yes, myelin sheath speeds up transmission of nerve impulses.
    Depolarisation of a nerve can possibly bidrectional. It probably is not mentioned because under normal physioloigcal conditions, nerve impulses are usually generated at one end of a nerve and then travels to the other end.

  5. #22
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    I was having some singles coaching last week, and in a rest period between drills I brought up the subject of returning the flick serve in doubles. We did about ten minutes on it, and the day after I practiced it on a club night with great results.

    Up until then I usually started up to a foot behind the service line when receiving, because I had trouble moving backwards. I am now far more confident to go right up to the line.

    The footwork I was shown to go back for the flick serve was a single chasse backwards then jump backwards. A chasse leaves your racquet leg at the back, so when you jump you can either do a spin jump or a block jump.

    After a chasse and a jump I was landing on the back service line for doubles.

  6. #23
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    If you thought a low serve was coming and you started to move forward, but it was really a flick serve, how well you recover depends on your footwork for moving forward for the low serve.

    A long time ago, I read the articles on BC about the aggressive return of serve, where you jump off both feet to go up and forwards. I put that into practice, but over time I slipped into the habit of just pushing forward off my back foot.

    If you do this, it is basically taking a big step with your right leg. During this step, you have lost your base for pushing backwards.

    If you do a block jump forwards, you can more quickly make another movement.

  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by gregr999
    Do you start with most of your weight on your forward foot and push off this foot (pushing back as well as up) as quickly as possible when you detect a flick serve?

    I would think that superior visual skills and exceptional reaction time are important factors that allow these guys pull off these smash returns against flick serves. I'm sure that these athletes can pick up visual clues that a flick serve is being delivered much quicker than the average person.

    They undoubtedly possess world-class reaction times. The averge person (non-athlete) might have a reaction time (RT) somewhere between 250 to 300ms (milliseconds). An RT in the 200 to 250 ms range would be considered fairly decent. World-class athletes often possess RTs under 200ms, possibly as low as 150ms. I believe that 150ms is close to some theoretical limit for nerve impulses traveling from the eye to the brain & then from the brain to other muscles in the body. The fastest signals (for nerves with myelin sheaths) in our body travel something on the order or 200 or 300 MPH (I don't recall which it is).

    Lastly, these athletes were born with a high percentage of type IIb (fast- twitch) muscle fibers in their legs (and probably in their shoulders & arms as well). Accleration training (such as plyometrics) can possibly improve your jumping & footwork speed but you are ultimately limited by the type of muscle fibers predominant in your body. If you possess a high percentage of type I fibers (slow-twitch) in your legs than you might be better of running marathons.
    From what I've read here & elsewhere, this info sounds pretty reasonable. Can't figure out why quisitor has taken an exception to most of this.

    A mission from god? A hidden agenda? 'fess up, quisitor

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants
    You just need to work on your footwork and legs.. need to have that extra power to leap and jump. Anticipation does takes part.. just need practice more on the footwork..
    yeah. i find after playing 4 a few years in competitions and regular club playing that you learn to anticipate serves, and what the server's going to do. its just practise

  9. #26
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    aye - i think it's more about anticipation that we think - it's the tiny minute differences in service prep and action that give it away - extra time taken, tension in the muscles. Sometimes this things are subconscious actions by the server - learning to read them is part of the game...

    naturally though having the necessary explosive speed and power to get back to the service line is just as essential.

    a little bit of improvisation can also help, being able to play a quick steep drop without getting behind the shuttle can prevent the need for a lift if you do get half caught out..

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Nicholls
    I was having some singles coaching last week, and in a rest period between drills I brought up the subject of returning the flick serve in doubles. We did about ten minutes on it, and the day after I practiced it on a club night with great results.

    Up until then I usually started up to a foot behind the service line when receiving, because I had trouble moving backwards. I am now far more confident to go right up to the line.

    The footwork I was shown to go back for the flick serve was a single chasse backwards then jump backwards. A chasse leaves your racquet leg at the back, so when you jump you can either do a spin jump or a block jump.

    After a chasse and a jump I was landing on the back service line for doubles.

    Thanks Neil, I found this really useful.

    Before, I was either taking a cross-over step back or just trying to jump two-footed immediately, which means I land well short of the back service line and can't reach an accurate long serve.

    Is there something else to the chasse and jump? Do you shift your body weight backwards before the chasse or as you chasse? Because it would have been all on the front leg.

    Was there some special drill your coach taught you, or did you just practise by repeating the move?

    Thanks

  11. #28
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    from my experience:

    -evenly distribute your weight. if you ahve ll your weight at your front foot ( non-racket-foot) you can't start well.
    evenly distributing, along with tensing up. works for me, i'm a little slower to teh front..but h...

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    Quote Originally Posted by david14700
    Thanks Neil, I found this really useful.

    Before, I was either taking a cross-over step back or just trying to jump two-footed immediately, which means I land well short of the back service line and can't reach an accurate long serve.

    Is there something else to the chasse and jump? Do you shift your body weight backwards before the chasse or as you chasse? Because it would have been all on the front leg.

    Was there some special drill your coach taught you, or did you just practise by repeating the move?

    Thanks
    how tall are you?
    if your still in your growth..or getting more and mor eleg strenght everyday..then just try and stand n the line. crunch down a bit.tension legs. and (with left foot in front) when they flick, a minor step with the right foot, and jump up! do this fast enough and you ahve a good interception...but by no means jump fr backwards, the main goal is UP, NOT back..

    if you are short, and not a jumper. then try to move back faste rthan teh shuttle

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    I've been trying to toe the line recently, and in general, it works quite well. I was watching the Danes in the All England Finals, and have tried to copy them. with some success. I crouch down and really concentrate on the shuttle and racket as the opponent is preparing to serve , and I can normally pick up a flick service in time to produce a reasonably attacking return. I can normally handle short serves quite well, too.

    The serve I have trouble with are those that are wide and short in the right hand court. I can get them, but can normally only produce a defensive shot. I think my weight is pretty evenly balanced.. any recommendations for returning these offensively?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dpc1l
    I've been trying to toe the line recently, and in general, it works quite well. I was watching the Danes in the All England Finals, and have tried to copy them…. with some success. I crouch down and really concentrate on the shuttle and racket as the opponent is preparing to serve , and I can normally pick up a flick service in time to produce a reasonably attacking return. I can normally handle short serves quite well, too.

    The serve I have trouble with are those that are wide and short in the right hand court. I can get them, but can normally only produce a defensive shot. I think my weight is pretty evenly balanced….. any recommendations for returning these offensively?
    If you think about the path the shuttle has to take for the serve to be going in, you don't actually have to move that far (imagine a line from the T to where the outside edge of the court meets the service line). If you can't read these serves too well then best bet is either reach out and play a tight net shot (if server is slow to anticipate) or a hard flat drive.

  15. #32
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    Slightly OT but to prevent/minimize people from doing a flick serve, stand about 2 steps in back of the service line. Yesterday, I played against an opponent who was 5'3" tall. He stood about 2-3 steps back and I could not attack him with my flick serve. And he was still good enough to move forward and attack a high/bad serve. Something to think about.

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    Quote Originally Posted by S4MadMan
    Slightly OT but to prevent/minimize people from doing a flick serve, stand about 2 steps in back of the service line. Yesterday, I played against an opponent who was 5'3" tall. He stood about 2-3 steps back and I could not attack him with my flick serve. And he was still good enough to move forward and attack a high/bad serve. Something to think about.
    If he stand that far back, it would be much easier to execute a tight short serve. Much less pressure...

  17. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by cheongsa
    If he stand that far back, it would be much easier to execute a tight short serve. Much less pressure...
    Yes, but this particular person is very fast. And he would rather get the short serve than a flick. Keeps you honest.

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