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View Poll Results: IN or OUT?

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  • IN!

    44 52.38%
  • OUT!

    40 47.62%
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Thread: IN or OUT?

  1. #154
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    i think the cork always touches the ground first. this point has to be considered. correct me if i'm wrong...

  2. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    mid court drive is never going to end up with feathers touching down first. or a point smash
    I guess you didn't read carefully enough

  3. #156
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    Don't know what angle the tangent between cork head radius and skirt extremity makes with a shuttle's axis. However, if the shuttle hits the ground whilst traveling at a shallower angle, by definition it will glance feathers first.

    I have had the situation once. It came from a bodged net kill which went (at pace) about 10-15 degrees below horizontal. Thankfully both feathers and cork were out, so there was no controversy.

    Can we at least agree that the situation is rare but possible?

    As for the actual question, amleto is correct. There is no specific mention to part of shuttle, so I'd go for whatever touches first.

  4. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alapongtai View Post
    When i got line judging not too long ago, they told me its out if the cork touches outside the line regardless of where the feathers touch
    Correct!!
    Just see the cork, don't bother to see the feather.

    Even there is a very super slim possibility that the feather might be touching the floor first, it is still the cork that count.

  5. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by phili View Post
    I guess you didn't read carefully enough
    It doesn't matter what kind of drive it is. If it's from midcourt, it aint landing in without hitting the cork first.

  6. #159
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Line & Length View Post
    Don't know what angle the tangent between cork head radius and skirt extremity makes with a shuttle's axis. However, if the shuttle hits the ground whilst traveling at a shallower angle, by definition it will glance feathers first.

    I have had the situation once. It came from a bodged net kill which went (at pace) about 10-15 degrees below horizontal. Thankfully both feathers and cork were out, so there was no controversy.

    Can we at least agree that the situation is rare but possible?

    As for the actual question, amleto is correct. There is no specific mention to part of shuttle, so I'd go for whatever touches first.
    Not possible with a drive within the space of a badminton court. Angle from top of net to backline is greater than angle of cork edge to skirt edge so even if hit at a million miles per hour it's not possible.

  7. #160
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    Sad I know, but I thought it would be fun to work it out:

    Height of a badminton net is 1.55m at the posts (rule 1.10), so let us say shuttle is 1.60m from the ground. Half-length of court is 6.7m, so the angle is the arc-tangent of the ratio, which comes out at 13.43 degrees. However, the diagonal of a half-court (Pythagoras of 6.7 and 6.1m) is 9.061m, which similarly gives an angle of 10.01 degrees.

    Taking the smallest skirt diameter of 58mm (rule 2.2.3), the longest feather length of 70mm (2.2.2) and the largest base diameter of 28mm (2.2.5) (via the arc-sine of the ratio of difference in radii to the length of the feather), I get a half-angle of 12.37 degrees. This is greater than the straight drive angle but not the cross.

    Similarly, taking the average of the values quoted in the the 3 shuttle rules, I get 16.05 degrees, which is greater than even the straight drive. Finally, taking the most optimistic values, the half-angle is 20.29 degrees, which is well over both.

    I would therefore argue that it is technically possible for a shuttle's feathers to land 'in' whilst the cork is 'out', albeit very unlikely.

  8. #161
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Line & Length View Post
    Sad I know, but I thought it would be fun to work it out:

    Height of a badminton net is 1.55m at the posts (rule 1.10), so let us say shuttle is 1.60m from the ground. Half-length of court is 6.7m, so the angle is the arc-tangent of the ratio, which comes out at 13.43 degrees. However, the diagonal of a half-court (Pythagoras of 6.7 and 6.1m) is 9.061m, which similarly gives an angle of 10.01 degrees.

    Taking the smallest skirt diameter of 58mm (rule 2.2.3), the longest feather length of 70mm (2.2.2) and the largest base diameter of 28mm (2.2.5) (via the arc-sine of the ratio of difference in radii to the length of the feather), I get a half-angle of 12.37 degrees. This is greater than the straight drive angle but not the cross.

    Similarly, taking the average of the values quoted in the the 3 shuttle rules, I get 16.05 degrees, which is greater than even the straight drive. Finally, taking the most optimistic values, the half-angle is 20.29 degrees, which is well over both.

    I would therefore argue that it is technically possible for a shuttle's feathers to land 'in' whilst the cork is 'out', albeit very unlikely.
    correct never considered a cross court drive so it is possible. Only one problem what speed does it need to be hit at for gravity to take next to no effect on the heavier (cork) part of the shuttle by the time it has covered over 9m? Faster than anyone could possible drive a shuttle would be my guess.

  9. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by amleto View Post
    It doesn't matter what kind of drive it is. If it's from midcourt, it aint landing in without hitting the cork first.
    I never said otherwise. It's just that no one said that the feathers land before the cork.

  10. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by Line & Length View Post

    Similarly, taking the average of the values quoted in the the 3 shuttle rules, I get 16.05 degrees, which is greater than even the straight drive. Finally, taking the most optimistic values, the half-angle is 20.29 degrees, which is well over both.

    I would therefore argue that it is technically possible for a shuttle's feathers to land 'in' whilst the cork is 'out', albeit very unlikely.
    You also got better results when you used a wider skirt which would cause even more drag than the narrower one hence the cork go down more degrees, so the optimistic values may be less likely to achieve skirt first contact, anyhoo a lot more drag on feather over cork over 9m anyway you look at it to make this possible me thinks.

  11. #164
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    The speed required may well be beyond what a human can achieve. I'll go so far as to say that it is probably beyond the limit.

    However, until someone comes up with a credible analysis to indicate whether it is achievable (I have neither the time nor inclination), I will continue to believe that it is possible though unlikely.

    I am quite happy for other opinions to differ from mine.

    Can we all move on now?

  12. #165
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    this thread seems much more relevant now that we have the video replay.

  13. #166
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    Kwun thread should be renamed "challenge called..... thumbs up or thumbs down"

  14. #167
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Name:  in-or-out bad.jpg
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    I think it is in but can't say with full certainty as the picture quality is to poor. Surely with the line review technology for calls like this they just need a nice clear image of the point of contact. Then either write a program or do it with a protractor find the angle of the shuttle(draw a line centre of cork to centre of feathers. Test what angle represents what point on the cork then just draw a dot at that point on the image, Then remove shuttle image to see line fully and see where dot lies.
    Last edited by craigandy; 12-14-2013 at 05:40 PM.

  15. #168
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    I would also like to say its IN! If the shuttlecock is clipping the line by only 1% it's IN. It depends too in how "soft is the floor" is I think! But you also have to look at where the Base of the Shuttlecock toches the floor for the FIRST TIME! Sometimes the shot is so flat that only the feathers touches the line or maybe hits the floor twice ...

  16. #169
    Regular Member craigandy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly View Post
    Sometimes the shot is so flat that only the feathers touches the line or maybe hits the floor twice ...
    Sometimes eh? Not possible unless tumbled.

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