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View Poll Results: IN or OUT?

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  • IN!

    44 52.38%
  • OUT!

    40 47.62%
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Thread: IN or OUT?

  1. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by seven
    Sorry if I offended you, I was NOT saying that "you are not wise" in general, just saying that you could be wise in this particular case!

    If I don't want to argue about this, it is not that I have no (good) points, it is
    1/ that the subject isn't worth it
    2/ that I don't think you would change your mind, whatever my arguments

    My time on Earth being limited , I won't lose time on such trivial discussions!
    In that case u r surfing the wrong thread or even the wrong site.
    why did you elect to vote anyway if the whole subject isn't 'worth' it?

    The subject isn't worth it to you because you treat proper line calls as trival and hitting a shuttle back and forth in the air is good enough for you.

  2. #104
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    For those people who say i don't know what i'm talking about, then I'll let pictures do the talking.

    the first pic is a repeat of freezed and zoomed image provided by kwun.

    the following pics is a recreation of the image in question.
    every attempt to position the shuttle as closely as to the shuttlecock captured in the image in question.
    i've attached several closeup of the cork contact point at various lighting.
    Absolutely all care taken so that the shuttlecock didn't move between photo shots. As i have said before, the call was EZ, it's out.

    the shuttlecock in my photo shots is an used yonex AS-50, probably same kind used in the tournament of the questioned image
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    Last edited by cooler; 09-25-2004 at 09:29 PM.

  3. #105
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    for those who originally say the the shuttlecock is still falling and it's hard to tell, when that shuttlecock do land, it would be even farther out than what is shown in the picture in question.

  4. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    for those who originally say the the shuttlecock is still falling and it's hard to tell, when that shuttlecock do land, it would be even farther out than what is shown in the picture in question.
    Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by seven
    cooler, you know wise men admit their mistakes! (so why not be wise on this one... )

    Anyway, I won't argue about this, I think it is pointless!
    This is just flat-out provoking... first basically calling out the other side, then saying it is all "pointless," as if to get in the last word.

    Besides, it's clearly IN. I was surprised to see about a 50/50 split in the votes. I expected most to be OUT.

    Phil

  5. #107
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    i think seven is just joking around. so please take him lightly.

    i assume, cooler, that EZ = easy.

    i am looking at the last closeup picture you attached, even though with perfect rigid geometry it would have been out, the apparent softness and non-evenless in the your "court surface" is making it hard to determine if it indeed touched the line or not.

    so i don't find it an easy case myself. call me stupid if you like.
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  6. #108
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil
    Besides, it's clearly IN. I was surprised to see about a 50/50 split in the votes. I expected most to be OUT.
    so Phil you think it is IN?

    even with cooler's re-enacment of the scene (do we sound like those "Cop TV" show? ), we still cannot get a concensus on the call.

  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    so Phil you think it is IN?

    even with cooler's re-enacment of the scene (do we sound like those "Cop TV" show? ), we still cannot get a concensus on the call.
    kwun,eyes definitely sharper than a camera lens
    good eyes, in that shot, i admit i had did not flatten out the tape completely, leaving a tiny rift at its edges. So i go flatten the tape on the wood, and taken more shots with back light too.

    the point is that the center of contact point is out of bound first before downward momentum compresses the cork into an area of contact. If one use the argument that if the cork touches the line it's in, then what about situation where the cork hit out first and bounces and landed in or on the line. Any lineman will call that out but if we go by if cork touches line is in rule, then all those shuttle went out and bounces in should be call in. No one want that rule.

    in tennis, the ball compresses even more as seen from mac cam, where the ball roll along a large surface area before bouncing up again. How about this situation, a tennis ball touch the base line, compresses and keep rolling and the center of compressional rolling occur actually outside the line, is that in or out. ? I think point of contact rule should be use as who know what is the air pressure of each tennis ball. Same as for the shuttlecock, the area of contact will depend on how fast the shuttle hit the mat and the shape of each cork. I know each brand and grade of shuttles have different cork curvature profile. Are linemans really know of all the cork shape of each brand of shuttle used? Center of contact point is the best rule. It brings the resolution down to say +/- 0.5mm difference in contact point before I consider it hard to tell.
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    Last edited by cooler; 09-26-2004 at 01:13 AM.

  8. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    i think seven is just joking around. so please take him lightly.

    i assume, cooler, that EZ = easy.

    i am looking at the last closeup picture you attached, even though with perfect rigid geometry it would have been out, the apparent softness and non-evenless in the your "court surface" is making it hard to determine if it indeed touched the line or not.

    so i don't find it an easy case myself. call me stupid if you like.
    note the dark area left of the tape and below the blue arrow, it's the shadow. Shadow means empty space which is resolved with back lights
    Last edited by cooler; 09-26-2004 at 01:15 AM.

  9. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    so Phil you think it is IN?

    even with cooler's re-enacment of the scene (do we sound like those "Cop TV" show? ), we still cannot get a concensus on the call.
    i think phil called it out

  10. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    note the dark area left of the tape and below the blue arrow, it's the shadow. Shadow means empty space which is resolved with back lights
    unfortunately, the shadow covers both the empty space and the contact point...

    anyway. note i am on neither IN nor OUT side. my point was really that it is quite hard to tell. the linesman won't have such a close macro view of the contact point. it is not "EZ"...

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    I wish i can hit a shot thats IN like that all the time

  12. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    unfortunately, the shadow covers both the empty space and the contact point...

    anyway. note i am on neither IN nor OUT side. my point was really that it is quite hard to tell. the linesman won't have such a close macro view of the contact point. it is not "EZ"...
    LOL, ok, it's not EZ for most line judges then.

  13. #115
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    Cooler, I merely responded to your statements about Athens line judges being "local volunteers", as I knew that was not the case.

    Regarding your interesting photo investigation: are you sure you didn't misplace the shuttle 0.5 mm? That would make the shuttle a definite IN or a definite OUT in your photos.

    I think you have showed clearly that this line judges' decision was indeed impossible, or arbitrary if you like. So, the best ruling would have been if he/she put hands over eyes (because it was impossible to judge) and let the umpire rule, hopefully a "let".

  14. #116
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    it was a hard call and deserved a great discussion. even tho it was called IN by the LJ i would still call it OUT based on that picture. dont want to dispute with anybody... im just stating my opinion on how i perceive the evidence.


    cheers

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    i think seven is just joking around. so please take him lightly.
    Yes, the original subject was fun and entertaining.
    Now I don't think there is a point to spend all my time in what we commonly call "deaf discussions"...

    Sorry Phil if you thought this was in order to have the last word, I rather think by saying this that I am leaving others - who want to continue argueing - have the last word...

    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    i assume, cooler, that EZ = easy.

    i am looking at the last closeup picture you attached, even though with perfect rigid geometry it would have been out, the apparent softness and non-evenless in the your "court surface" is making it hard to determine if it indeed touched the line or not.

    so i don't find it an easy case myself. call me stupid if you like.
    Agree!

  16. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mag
    Regarding your interesting photo investigation: are you sure you didn't misplace the shuttle 0.5 mm? That would make the shuttle a definite IN or a definite OUT in your photos.
    I think cooler might have put the shuttle closer to the line in the reconstruction than in the real case.

  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Nicholls
    I think cooler might have put the shuttle closer to the line in the reconstruction than in the real case.
    Very observant, were u a line judge at one time?

    In my re-construction of the 3D model from the original fuzzy 2D black and white, i did say i try to be as 'close' as possible, i wasn't lying LOL. I was afraid someone would think i would be bias. Yes, i did recreate the scenario with doubters in mind so i gave as much leeway to doubters as possible since the black and white blowup was a fuzzy enhancement of the orginal video capture. To take care that, i printed the black and white with shuttle and line sizes referenced to real dimensions.

    In my pic below, i have outlined the real possible position of the shuttle and the line. I've key in the speed band of the shuttle, and the middle of the cork shadow as the middle axis. I've use the inside line edge as reference line because it has a better consistence edging across the photo. All outlined objects are in real dimensions. From that, Neil is correct, my 3D reconstruction is or could be closer than what really was.

    That's why i made the call EZ out from the original video capture image.
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    Last edited by cooler; 09-27-2004 at 03:48 PM.

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