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  1. #3044
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    Surely,instead of keeping me guessing, you can just simply state which tourney and how did it come about that "LD received an easy match by his compatriot as not to jeopardize his chances in the final match." Who arranged it that way and who would be his difficult opponent that he had to avoid? And who did Lin Dan beat in that final who would be an easier opponent than the one he avoided meeting? Kindly save me the trouble of searching and trying to guess your "hint".

    And about LOG SF, you're purely speculating, it's meaningless to debate on what may or may not happen. Anyway, do you expect CJ to beat LD or LD is not good enough to beat CJ - to prove that LD needs "help"?
    So the only justifiable and acceptable result is for CJ,"the superior player", to defeat LD,"the weaker player"?

    If your argument above doesn't hold then "So the AE tourney in regard to your question is peanuts." is irrelevant and makes no sense. Whatever it is, I simply cannot get it why and in what way a stronger player needs the help of the weaker one(s).
    That I really cannot help. Go think of it overnight and you shall get it (when you stop playing dumb). Another hint: that difficult opponent is no other than LCW, of course! Who else?!

    Expecting CJ not to beat LD?? Why not? Anything can happen. LD is not unbeatable unless he is "GOD" and only his fans thinks that way.

    To get it straight, its not merely an argument but a known fact that CJ won one of his AE title...... the one that he played against LD you know..?? It is also a known fact that plenty of LD's fans stoutly denied it. They sounded exactly like you then.

    On what way a lesser player can do for the stronger one? This is a real tough question. Anyway let me try. He can actually play to his true potential and win the match. If not, at least to push, troubled and tired off his opponent so that he (LD of course) would not be as fresh (as what he was back in that 2008 final) nor to gain any advantages (physical and mental) as oppose to his difficult opponent (again it is LCW, of course). These are labelled as assistance.

    It seems to me you have a lot of catching up to do.

  2. #3045
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    but still, in the final matches, it's him who trashed all the opponents before he grab the titles, didn't he?
    Not the point. I was talking about assistance/help or whatever you may call before he grabs those titles, didn't he?

  3. #3046
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Expecting CJ not to beat LD?? Why not? Anything can happen. LD is not unbeatable unless he is "GOD" and only his fans thinks that way.
    yep, LD is absolutely not a GOD, and i myself don't like it too when anybody called him like that. but personal opinion only.

    so, let's move on. the case here is beijing OG SF when LD vs CJ. what happen that day, did CJ assist LD or not, how can you said which one is true? only the players know what happen that day. we can only make our guess because we can't read people's (LD and CJ) mind, till one day both of them maybe out with some confession of what happened that time.
    and everytime 2 chinese players play, people always said that they're not playing seriously, bla bla bla, as if they're so great to read the players mind. awesome, doesn't it? i won't say that they are playing seriously too, because the border is very blur now, when are they playing seriously or when they're playing the order. just them who knows what's exactly happen.


    If not, at least to push, troubled and tired off his opponent so that he (LD of course) would not be as fresh (as what he was back in that 2008 final) nor to gain any advantages (physical and mental) as oppose to his difficult opponent (again it is LCW, of course). These are labelled as assistance.
    if i'm not mistake, LCW himself ever said that as players they are trained 6-7 hours a day except sunday, so they have no problem with just 1 day rest. (please correct me if i'm wrong about this. ) so, if that's the case, why should it be a problem for him to playing LD another day?

  4. #3047
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Not the point. I was talking about assistance/help or whatever you may call before he grabs those titles, didn't he?
    and in your opinion, how much that assistance help him to grab a title so you always need to bring it to discussion about LD?
    Last edited by bad's fan; 06-23-2012 at 08:57 AM.

  5. #3048
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    yep, LD is absolutely not a GOD, and i myself don't like it too when anybody called him like that. but personal opinion only.

    so, let's move on. the case here is beijing OG SF when LD vs CJ. what happen that day, did CJ assist LD or not, how can you said which one is true? only the players know what happen that day. we can only make our guess because we can't read people's (LD and CJ) mind, till one day both of them maybe out with some confession of what happened that time.
    and everytime 2 chinese players play, people always said that they're not playing seriously, bla bla bla, as if they're so great to read the players mind. awesome, doesn't it? i won't say that they are playing seriously too, because the border is very blur now, when are they playing seriously or when they're playing the order. just them who knows what's exactly happen.




    if i'm not mistake, LCW himself ever said that as players they are trained 6-7 hours a day except sunday, so they have no problem with just 1 day rest. (please correct me if i'm wrong about this. ) so, if that's the case, why should it be a problem for him to playing LD another day?
    Bingo!! Beijing OG SF and its not difficult to guess right. Anyhow someone needs more hints LOL.
    Of course that is my POV in regards to this debate just to make it clear. I see it that way after watching that match live on tv. Like you mentioned, that might not be the case but to be dead frank what do you think may I ask? Also by looking at CBA history and the way their system works. What is your guess? Was it a 100% real match? No matter what no one will ever know exactly what happened. So let's move on like you said.

    No doubt professional players train 6 days a week and they are very fit. But then they are up against someone their level and after a few strenuous days in a row, they still need to recover. They are human after all. That is where the advantages of having an easy match helps. This is especially noticeable when the match went to rubber.

  6. #3049
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    and in your opinion, how much that assistance help him to grab a title so you always need to bring it to discussion about LD?
    Put it this way. My take is no doubt LD is the best player of the current generation and very well deserve all the titles won, he did received some sort of assistance along the way by his team mates. That I cannot deny. As to what measure (those help) I don't know.
    Last edited by flite; 06-23-2012 at 09:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    That I really cannot help. Go think of it overnight and you shall get it (when you stop playing dumb). Another hint: that difficult opponent is no other than LCW, of course! Who else?!

    Expecting CJ not to beat LD?? Why not? Anything can happen. LD is not unbeatable unless he is "GOD" and only his fans thinks that way.

    To get it straight, its not merely an argument but a known fact that CJ won one of his AE title...... the one that he played against LD you know..?? It is also a known fact that plenty of LD's fans stoutly denied it. They sounded exactly like you then.

    On what way a lesser player can do for the stronger one? This is a real tough question. Anyway let me try. He can actually play to his true potential and win the match. If not, at least to push, troubled and tired off his opponent so that he (LD of course) would not be as fresh (as what he was back in that 2008 final) nor to gain any advantages (physical and mental) as oppose to his difficult opponent (again it is LCW, of course). These are labelled as assistance.

    It seems to me you have a lot of catching up to do.
    I see,so now you're telling me to think harder and more intelligently and stop playing dumb - a new point in you argument (never mind, I always hands off personal attack,only targetting the viewpoints).

    Again,you didn't addressed the question of who arranged the matchup such that it was LD vs CJ in one SF and LCW vs LHI in the other so that LD could receive "help" from CJ. It's ok,take it that it so happened LD avoided playing the more difficult LHI (or LCW?). With the benefit of hindsight, it followed that LD thrashed LCW in the final while CJ overpowered LHI for bronze.

    Of course,it's possible for CJ to beat LD who isn't invincible and certainly no "GOD" - I wouldn't use this term,at most god, a deity, anyway that's beside the point. Still it comes back to the point that the only acceptable result is for CJ to beat LD on that occasion to prove no "assistance" has been rendered to the latter. Yet when LD lost to CJ in the AE, you find that unacceptable and dubious claiming it was a return of favour, as if they knew beforehand they would meet in the final. Granted you could be right,it wouldn't change the fact that LD went on to trounce LCW in the Beijing 2008 OG Final.

    Finally,you laboured the point that the weaker player can "help" the stronger player by playing to his "true potential and win the match. If not, at least to push, troubled and tired off his opponent so that he (LD of course) would not be as fresh (as what he was back in that 2008 final) nor to gain any advantages (physical and mental) as oppose to his difficult opponent (again it is LCW, of course). These are labelled as assistance." To think these world class athletes train 6-7 hrs everyday excluding Sunday(rest day) as in LCW's case.

    This last argument was beginning to sound plausible until I realised you were implying that LD without CJ's,the weaker player's,"assistance" wouldn't have beaten LCW the following day. But not only did LD routed LCW in that 2008 final,he subsequently went on to beat LCW how many times in their H2H, and with whose "assistance" each time? Or are you willing to concede that LD only received "assistance" that particular time in 2008, even though I don't agree with you nor think it mattered? Hmm, how come LCW and his coach didn't complain of that, they didn't utter a word to that effect or they failed to see what you saw?

    Come to think of it, you didn't offer any new argument here,my previous post still stands,the aforementioned more or less unnecessary,more of an elaboration.Yup,by your standard, I sure have a lot of catching up to do.
    Nothing personal,let's agree to disagree then.

  8. #3051
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Put it this way. My take is no doubt LD is the best player of the current generation and very well deserve all the titles won, he did received some sort of assistance along the way by his team mates. That I cannot deny. As to what measure (those help) I don't know.
    Aiya, if I had read this post ( was watching a TV documentary), seeing that you backtracked though not without throwing one last punch, I wouldn't have bothered to respond and let bad's-fan's valid rebuttal stand will do (again I only get to read it now, well done, bad's fan).

    Btw, those qualifiers in the Superseries have to play two matches a day and immediately upon qualification have to take on higher-ranked opponents, worse still meet the seeded players, the very next day, sometimes less than 10/12 hrs later. Don't you think it's even more stressful,disadvantageous and unfair for them?

  9. #3052
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    I see,so now you're telling me to think harder and more intelligently and stop playing dumb - a new point in you argument (never mind, I always hands off personal attack,only targetting the viewpoints).

    Again,you didn't addressed the question of who arranged the matchup such that it was LD vs CJ in one SF and LCW vs LHI in the other so that LD could receive "help" from CJ. It's ok,take it that it so happened LD avoided playing the more difficult LHI (or LCW?). With the benefit of hindsight, it followed that LD thrashed LCW in the final while CJ overpowered LHI for bronze.

    Of course,it's possible for CJ to beat LD who isn't invincible and certainly no "GOD" - I wouldn't use this term,at most god, a deity, anyway that's beside the point. Still it comes back to the point that the only acceptable result is for CJ to beat LD on that occasion to prove no "assistance" has been rendered to the latter. Yet when LD lost to CJ in the AE, you find that unacceptable and dubious claiming it was a return of favour, as if they knew beforehand they would meet in the final. Granted you could be right,it wouldn't change the fact that LD went on to trounce LCW in the Beijing 2008 OG Final.

    Finally,you laboured the point that the weaker player can "help" the stronger player by playing to his "true potential and win the match. If not, at least to push, troubled and tired off his opponent so that he (LD of course) would not be as fresh (as what he was back in that 2008 final) nor to gain any advantages (physical and mental) as oppose to his difficult opponent (again it is LCW, of course). These are labelled as assistance." To think these world class athletes train 6-7 hrs everyday excluding Sunday(rest day) as in LCW's case.

    This last argument was beginning to sound plausible until I realised you were implying that LD without CJ's,the weaker player's,"assistance" wouldn't have beaten LCW the following day. But not only did LD routed LCW in that 2008 final,he subsequently went on to beat LCW how many times in their H2H, and with whose "assistance" each time? Or are you willing to concede that LD only received "assistance" that particular time in 2008, even though I don't agree with you nor think it mattered? Hmm, how come LCW and his coach didn't complain of that, they didn't utter a word to that effect or they failed to see what you saw?

    Come to think of it, you didn't offer any new argument here,my previous post still stands,the aforementioned more or less unnecessary,more of an elaboration.Yup,by your standard, I sure have a lot of catching up to do.
    Nothing personal,let's agree to disagree then.
    Congratulation! At last you got it. I think again there is no need for me to answer your questions in the first place since you already knew the answer, right? It needs certain way to stop people beating around the bush and hey, it works.

    Looking at your long posting, it seems like you have plenty of explanation to do for LD. My point was very straightforward. It was all about that SF match of LD vs CL and my take is LD did get an easy match out of it. Period.

    Whether he thrashed LCW, the H2H between them, how many hours they train, about their coaches is beside the point. It doesn't matter. I did not touch on those subjects. And don't worry, I would not denied that either.

    So just disagree if you really do. It would not matter so much to me but those irrelevant points is not necessary, really.

    So now it seems the tide is changing. I have plenty of catching up to do if the discussion is not kept simple and straight-to-the-point.

  10. #3053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin L View Post
    Aiya, if I had read this post ( was watching a TV documentary), seeing that you backtracked though not without throwing one last punch, I wouldn't have bothered to respond and let bad's-fan's valid rebuttal stand will do (again I only get to read it now, well done, bad's fan).

    Btw, those qualifiers in the Superseries have to play two matches a day and immediately upon qualification have to take on higher-ranked opponents, worse still meet the seeded players, the very next day, sometimes less than 10/12 hrs later. Don't you think it's even more stressful,disadvantageous and unfair for them?
    First of all, I did not backtracked! I stood-by all my statements made.

    Still going in circles. Be it 10 matches a day, seeded or unseeded that's beside the point. What I was talking about is unfair advantages one received prior in meeting his opponent.

    It so simple and straight forward but yet....
    Last edited by flite; 06-23-2012 at 10:20 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    he did received some sort of assistance along the way by his team mates.
    i think i can agree with you on this sentence. CBA is a massive organization, and a complex one anyway. with such lot resources, i think it's undeniable that it can provide LD with a lot of assistance. but about what kind of specific assistance, as i mentioned before, i don't want to speculate further because i don't know what really happen between players.

    now, if we assume that LD REALLY received that kind of help from his teammates, yes, he did get a advantage there, but how much? at the end, it's still him who must face stronger opponents in final matches. not to mentioned if it's a tournament related to national glory like OG, AG or WC. the burden is on his shoulder at the final matches, even bigger than his teammates have. if he finally deliver to win the title, i think he still deserve acknowledgement for himself, for his try, for his ability. the title doesn't jump into his hands right after his teammates help him, right? that's why i'm quite objected when some people make it looks that LD very rely-on/need that helps to gain what he get today. but i don't know, maybe it's just me who understand the posts badly.

    peace.
    Last edited by bad's fan; 06-23-2012 at 10:33 AM.

  12. #3055
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    The important point is not a single of Lin Dan's opponents breathe a word or maybe even entertain a thought that Lin Dan ever needed any assistance from anyone to win his matches. Lin Dan is simply too good. That's why he's called Super Dan. That's why Peter Gade regarded him as "The Greatest Player in History". That's why Lee Hyun Il said he is "the perfect shuttler".Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    i think i can agree with you on this sentence. CBA is a massive organization, and a complex one anyway. with such lot resources, i think it's undeniable that it can provide LD with a lot of assistance. but about what kind of specific assistance, as i mentioned before, i don't want to speculate further because i don't know what really happen between players.

    now, if we assume that LD REALLY received that kind of help from his teammates, yes, he did get a advantage there, but how much? at the end, it's still him who must face stronger opponents in final matches. not to mentioned if it's a tournament related to national glory like OG, AG or WC. the burden is on his shoulder at the final matches, even bigger than his teammates have. if he finally deliver to win the title, i think he still deserve acknowledgement for himself, for his try, for his ability. the title doesn't jump into his hands right after his teammates help him, right? that's why i'm quite objected when some people make it looks that LD very rely-on/need that helps to gain what he get today. but i don't know, maybe it's just me who understand the posts badly.

    peace.
    Its getting very near to the main point after all. People/players are where they are today by doing exactly what you described about LD.

    Very good post... only when all that you said apply to the other equally good player with the same reasoning and recognition as LD. Some people would say the same here BUT belittle others achievements. A different out-look was cast, but I don't know maybe its just me who understand those posts badly.

    Go take a look if you know what I mean. You can even see certain post by someone who is in the midst of discussion here painting a different picture based on the same values.
    Last edited by flite; 06-23-2012 at 11:03 AM.

  14. #3057
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    Let me tell you a "secret".

    Lin Dan once openly said that he and a few of his coaches agreed that LCW is the most complete player in the circuit currently. It was during one of the press conference or interview somewhere late last year.

    Does that really make LCW above "Super Dan" the greatest player in history? Period.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Let me tell you a "secret".

    Lin Dan once openly said that he and a few of his coaches agreed that LCW is the most complete player in the circuit currently. It was during one of the press conference or interview somewhere late last year.

    Does that really make LCW above "Super Dan" the greatest player in history? Period.
    LD is either modest or praise himself indirectly. LCW is the most complete player but I still beat him with 70% rate

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Lin Dan once openly said that he and a few of his coaches agreed that LCW is the most complete player in the circuit currently. It was during one of the press conference or interview somewhere late last year.

    Does that really make LCW above "Super Dan" the greatest player in history? Period.
    and now you came with this sentences, i think the debate once more will going a long looong way.

    but enough from me. each people deserves their own greatest player to their personal opinion, as well as the players deserves their credits for what they've achieved i think?
    i'm out of the debate till somebody came along with those 'assistance' thing again. haha

    peace.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    First of all, I did not backtracked! I stood-by all my statements made.

    Still going in circles. Be it 10 matches a day, seeded or unseeded that's beside the point. What I was talking about is unfair advantages one received prior in meeting his opponent.

    It so simple and straight forward but yet....
    The point is that LD trashed pretty much EVERY opponent in OG 2008. So to pick out one particular trashing against one player, CJ, and say that that was not a "fair" trashing, and that the next trashing would as a fact not have been possible if CJ would have not "allowed" himself to be trashed (just like all the other OG opponents in the draw)..Seems far fetched reasoning at best, and really trying to extrapolate using guesswork and wishful presumptions instead of actual knowledge and facts.

    Please remember CJ was the one player during OG that got the MOST number of points against LD in OGn 2008 :-)

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