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  1. #3112
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Clearly it was you who didn't see the bigger picture as to what extent or benefit LD had and toward his subsequent matches. It was all there.

    Same thing apply to the physical and mental issue. What do you think that if indeed LD had an easy match and on the other hand his supposed opponent had a tough one? What advantage or benefit do you think the physical and mental issue had?

    Or shall I say you refused to see it? Since you highlighted them and need further elaboration like a lawyer wannabe, here you go:

    Assumed that LD vs CJ match was fixed

    1.) Mentally more relaxed - Prior knowing that he would have an easy match in the SF, LD does not need to worry about the SF match eg. what strategy to apply, game-plan etc.. Mentally he is free of pressure for the day. One can only operate, play and think properly if he is not under constant pressure.

    2.) Mentally better prepared - LD already knew that he already booked a ticket to the Final so his mind and vision can totally focus on the coming matches and plan ahead. He can strategize his game and do some analytical preparation whereas all his opponent could do is to focus on the game on hand. Mentality wise, LD is one step ahead.

    3.) Physically well prepared - He can take the match against CJ as an extra training day. A training just to get his body rate worked out to the desired level so he would be at optimum condition. This is essential as to make sure that he wasn't overworked nor over rested prior to the Final. On the other hand, LCW and LHY were fighting gongs and drums maybe even to the point of exhaustion.

    4.) Physically well preserved - Most of the top athletes carry some sort of strain/injury with them at certain point of time. These strains or injuries could resurfaced if one were pushed to the limit. LD was spared in regard to this since he wasn't pushed by CJ. The same couldn't be applied to LCW who had a gruelling three setter. Therefore LD came to the Final in a better physical condition compared to LCW who might still not yet fully recovered. In that case, LD can play the way, the speed, the game he wanted to play.

    Given the points above do you think that he LD indeed has certain advantages or benefits coming to the final matches? Or you can still argue and stick to it that LD being the "best player" does not need that.... which is beside the point.
    with respect to your theories, i would still saying that the 'help' from CJ (if it was really happened) didn't give LD any huge advantages. and again, i even more objected if any people try to bash LD achievements with those 'assistance' things. my example would be (please CMIIW if there is mistakes with the statistics ):
    1. Asian Games 2010. i've tried to search full MS individual tournament's history, but only managed to find the history from QFs. since QF, LD never met his CHN teammates, but still he can managed to win the gold against his best rival in the final. where is the assistance then?
    2. WC 2011. LD again never met with his CHN teammates during the tournament. and again, he still managed to win the gold too against a very good form LCW. so, who assisted him back then?

    about better preparation that LD have as you said in OG 2008, in the WC 2011 SF, LCW won over CJ in 2 games, 21-13 21-9 in 43 minutes match on the morning session (starting 11 AM, 3rd match) while LD must struggle agains PG in 3 games 22-24 21-7 21-15 for 1 hour 15 minutes match on the afternoon session (starting 05.30 PM, 4th match). and then, the final matches held tomorrow. let's bring the situation to your 4 points above:
    1. mentally relaxed: pretty the same i think, LCW knew CJ pretty much won't give him big hard time, as for LD i think with PG(which unfortunately didn't happen )?
    2. mentally better prepared: again, pretty the same i think.
    3. physically better prepared: i think LCW should have edge here. shorter duration match which played earlier compared to LD. and there is no 1-day-off like the OG.
    4. physically well preserved: as your theory, LCW have the edge here of course, for just playing 2 games compared to LD with 3 games.
    so, what's the final results? LCW has a bit advantage too in WC 2011 based on your theory, but still he failed to maximize it. LD could have advantage too in OG 2008, but he won't grab the gold if he too failed to catch the opportunity. so, the players' succeed should still depend on the players themselves, how to catch the opportunity in front of them, and not rely only to the assistance like you said.

    peace.

  2. #3113
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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    but i think TC,UC and SC are team world championship, aren't they?
    really?then why dont they name it world team championship?
    but thomas?uber?sudirman?
    i still believe that lin dan won wc from 1997 -2012.

  3. #3114
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    Quote Originally Posted by limsy View Post
    really?then why dont they name it world team championship?
    but thomas?uber?sudirman?
    tribute to the persons who provide the Cups maybe?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    tribute to the persons who provide the Cups maybe?
    you really need to learn more about those cup

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    Quote Originally Posted by limsy View Post
    you really need to learn more about those cup
    really? from where? or maybe you won't mind to give me some lesson about those cups?

    sorry, try to look in BWF site and found this:

    http://bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=16703

    http://bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14917

    in those two links, it's mentioned like this:

    The Thomas Cup or Men’s World Team Championships was first staged in 1948-49, and the Uber Cup or
    Women’s World Team Championships...
    Also: The Sudirman Cup is the World Team Badminton Championships


    because it's from BWF, i think it's trustable/valid, isn't it?
    Last edited by bad's fan; 06-25-2012 at 04:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Clearly it was you who didn't see the bigger picture as to what extent or benefit LD had and toward his subsequent matches. It was all there.

    Same thing apply to the physical and mental issue. What do you think that if indeed LD had an easy match and on the other hand his supposed opponent had a tough one? What advantage or benefit do you think the physical and mental issue had?

    Or shall I say you refused to see it? Since you highlighted them and need further elaboration like a lawyer wannabe, here you go:

    Assumed that LD vs CJ match was fixed

    1.) Mentally more relaxed - Prior knowing that he would have an easy match in the SF, LD does not need to worry about the SF match eg. what strategy to apply, game-plan etc.. Mentally he is free of pressure for the day. One can only operate, play and think properly if he is not under constant pressure.

    2.) Mentally better prepared - LD already knew that he already booked a ticket to the Final so his mind and vision can totally focus on the coming matches and plan ahead. He can strategize his game and do some analytical preparation whereas all his opponent could do is to focus on the game on hand. Mentality wise, LD is one step ahead.

    3.) Physically well prepared - He can take the match against CJ as an extra training day. A training just to get his body rate worked out to the desired level so he would be at optimum condition. This is essential as to make sure that he wasn't overworked nor over rested prior to the Final. On the other hand, LCW and LHY were fighting gongs and drums maybe even to the point of exhaustion.

    4.) Physically well preserved - Most of the top athletes carry some sort of strain/injury with them at certain point of time. These strains or injuries could resurfaced if one were pushed to the limit. LD was spared in regard to this since he wasn't pushed by CJ. The same couldn't be applied to LCW who had a gruelling three setter. Therefore LD came to the Final in a better physical condition compared to LCW who might still not yet fully recovered. In that case, LD can play the way, the speed, the game he wanted to play.

    Given the points above do you think that he LD indeed has certain advantages or benefits coming to the final matches? Or you can still argue and stick to it that LD being the "best player" does not need that.... which is beside the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzzards View Post
    Speaking about the OG2008 Final between LD and LCW, in a nutshell, you cannot sound a clap with only one palm waving into thin air.

    If you have read or seen the interviews LCW had about that fateful match, these are some of the significant factors that led LCW to believe that the match was not really his to take:

    1. LCW was not mentally prepared. He mentioned that he had close to or less than 5 hours of sleep the night prior. He was just too anxious to "get things over with".

    2. At the time LCW was facing a lot of mental pressure from BAM and indirect expectations from his MAS fans. LD was also facing the same thing from the other side. Truth is, if LD had been mentally weak during the time, LCW would have had some chance of taking the match as no matter how well rested LD was the match prior, mental pressure can still crack him up. Psychology is not as simple as a lot of you have been pointing out here.

    3. LCW had admitted that during that match LD was playing a better game and had a better game plan than he did. This itself has a lot of factors such that I would not point directly at any one factor and elaborate on it, so 'nuff said.
    What you stated were actually the events that befallen on LCW's side which is not exactly the point of discussion. Furthermore, all the points you presented actually supported the facts which I stated that indeed LD was better prepared, period.

  7. #3118
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Clearly it was you who didn't see the bigger picture as to what extent or benefit LD had and toward his subsequent matches. It was all there.

    Same thing apply to the physical and mental issue. What do you think that if indeed LD had an easy match and on the other hand his supposed opponent had a tough one? What advantage or benefit do you think the physical and mental issue had?

    Or shall I say you refused to see it? Since you highlighted them and need further elaboration like a lawyer wannabe, here you go:

    Assumed that LD vs CJ match was fixed

    1.) Mentally more relaxed - Prior knowing that he would have an easy match in the SF, LD does not need to worry about the SF match eg. what strategy to apply, game-plan etc.. Mentally he is free of pressure for the day. One can only operate, play and think properly if he is not under constant pressure.

    2.) Mentally better prepared - LD already knew that he already booked a ticket to the Final so his mind and vision can totally focus on the coming matches and plan ahead. He can strategize his game and do some analytical preparation whereas all his opponent could do is to focus on the game on hand. Mentality wise, LD is one step ahead.

    3.) Physically well prepared - He can take the match against CJ as an extra training day. A training just to get his body rate worked out to the desired level so he would be at optimum condition. This is essential as to make sure that he wasn't overworked nor over rested prior to the Final. On the other hand, LCW and LHY were fighting gongs and drums maybe even to the point of exhaustion.

    4.) Physically well preserved - Most of the top athletes carry some sort of strain/injury with them at certain point of time. These strains or injuries could resurfaced if one were pushed to the limit. LD was spared in regard to this since he wasn't pushed by CJ. The same couldn't be applied to LCW who had a gruelling three setter. Therefore LD came to the Final in a better physical condition compared to LCW who might still not yet fully recovered. In that case, LD can play the way, the speed, the game he wanted to play.

    Given the points above do you think that he LD indeed has certain advantages or benefits coming to the final matches? Or you can still argue and stick to it that LD being the "best player" does not need that.... which is beside the point.
    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    with respect to your theories, i would still saying that the 'help' from CJ (if it was really happened) didn't give LD any huge advantages. and again, i even more objected if any people try to bash LD achievements with those 'assistance' things. my example would be (please CMIIW if there is mistakes with the statistics ):
    1. Asian Games 2010. i've tried to search full MS individual tournament's history, but only managed to find the history from QFs. since QF, LD never met his CHN teammates, but still he can managed to win the gold against his best rival in the final. where is the assistance then?
    2. WC 2011. LD again never met with his CHN teammates during the tournament. and again, he still managed to win the gold too against a very good form LCW. so, who assisted him back then?

    about better preparation that LD have as you said in OG 2008, in the WC 2011 SF, LCW won over CJ in 2 games, 21-13 21-9 in 43 minutes match on the morning session (starting 11 AM, 3rd match) while LD must struggle agains PG in 3 games 22-24 21-7 21-15 for 1 hour 15 minutes match on the afternoon session (starting 05.30 PM, 4th match). and then, the final matches held tomorrow. let's bring the situation to your 4 points above:
    1. mentally relaxed: pretty the same i think, LCW knew CJ pretty much won't give him big hard time, as for LD i think with PG(which unfortunately didn't happen )?
    2. mentally better prepared: again, pretty the same i think.
    3. physically better prepared: i think LCW should have edge here. shorter duration match which played earlier compared to LD. and there is no 1-day-off like the OG.
    4. physically well preserved: as your theory, LCW have the edge here of course, for just playing 2 games compared to LD with 3 games.
    so, what's the final results? LCW has a bit advantage too in WC 2011 based on your theory, but still he failed to maximize it. LD could have advantage too in OG 2008, but he won't grab the gold if he too failed to catch the opportunity. so, the players' succeed should still depend on the players themselves, how to catch the opportunity in front of them, and not rely only to the assistance like you said.

    peace.
    The fact is, if you choose to accept that, LD indeed had the advantages prior to the final game. Whether to what extent we don't know as that wasn't my original point of discussion. The rest of your post is a little off topic because from my point of view, there is a huge difference to the nature of the game when it comes to LD vs CJ against LCW vs CJ.

  8. #3119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzzards View Post
    Speaking about the OG2008 Final between LD and LCW, in a nutshell, you cannot sound a clap with only one palm waving into thin air.If you have read or seen the interviews LCW had about that fateful match, these are some of the significant factors that led LCW to believe that the match was not really his to take:1. LCW was not mentally prepared. He mentioned that he had close to or less than 5 hours of sleep the night prior. He was just too anxious to "get things over with".2. At the time LCW was facing a lot of mental pressure from BAM and indirect expectations from his MAS fans. LD was also facing the same thing from the other side. Truth is, if LD had been mentally weak during the time, LCW would have had some chance of taking the match as no matter how well rested LD was the match prior, mental pressure can still crack him up. Psychology is not as simple as a lot of you have been pointing out here.3. LCW had admitted that during that match LD was playing a better game and had a better game plan than he did. This itself has a lot of factors such that I would not point directly at any one factor and elaborate on it, so 'nuff said.
    Let s go hypothetical. If LHI had been drawn to play LD and CJ to play LCW in the OG08 semis, what do you think would have happened? Most likely, both CJ and LD would not be mentally as fresh and the outcome for the medal matches would more likely be closer. That s what is meant by LD having the plus with assists.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Let s go hypothetical. If LHI had been drawn to play LD and CJ to play LCW in the OG08 semis, what do you think would have happened? Most likely, both CJ and LD would not be mentally as fresh and the outcome for the medal matches would more likely be closer. That s what is meant by LD having the plus with assists.
    Hypotetically LD would have probably trashed LHI in a similar fashion like he did in Asian Games 2008 (and has been doing consistently after the "korean incident" showing the "ugly side" of LDs behaviour towards Li Mao in KO 2008). My guess would be 21-15,21-10 or something like that in 40 minutes or so. (Aisan Games 2008 was 21-15,21-8 to LD I beleive.)

    Hypotetically LCW could possibly even have lost to CJ in the semi if they had met. But most likely he would have won (he usually owns CJ) but having to work even harder than when beating LHI and be lacking even more in confidence against LD in the final.

    I am also sure nobody would have cried foul if LCW had beaten CJ 21-12, 21-18, and accused CJ of "helping" LCW by loosing in straight games :-)

    This is of course all hypotetical.
    Last edited by twobeer; 06-25-2012 at 06:21 AM.

  10. #3121
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    What you stated were actually the events that befallen on LCW's side which is not exactly the point of discussion. Furthermore, all the points you presented actually supported the facts which I stated that indeed LD was better prepared, period.
    NO.

    1. Only if you are talking about things in relative terms, then yes, LD had a better "pre-game entrance".

    2. It still does not make a difference in that LCW had a relatively worse "pre-game entrance", due to the personal factors I have mentioned about LCW. (These were all stated by LCW himself in one of the Astro Interviews earlier this year).

    Even if LD had to play CJ "to-the-death" in the SF round, my second point will still hold true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blitzzards View Post
    NO.

    1. Only if you are talking about things in relative terms, then yes, LD had a better "pre-game entrance".

    2. It still does not make a difference in that LCW had a relatively worse "pre-game entrance", due to the personal factors I have mentioned about LCW. (These were all stated by LCW himself in one of the Astro Interviews earlier this year).

    Even if LD had to play CJ "to-the-death" in the SF round, my second point will still hold true.
    Granted that LCW had his own set of problems prior to the match, it still doesn't change the fact of what actually took place if you look at the other side of the coin. Be it relative terms or not (you may call it that way if you like), the damage is done as in the matched was fixed.

    If I doesn't believe that CBA has fixed many games results in the past and it is actually part of their "policy", this argument wouldn't be brought up in the first place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    The fact is, if you choose to accept that, LD indeed had the advantages prior to the final game. Whether to what extent we don't know as that wasn't my original point of discussion. The rest of your post is a little off topic because from my point of view, there is a huge difference to the nature of the game when it comes to LD vs CJ against LCW vs CJ.
    ups, sorry if i didn't make my point too clear. what i was meant to tell is that some guys think that LD got huge huge advantage from the OG 2008 SF match, and that's the reason he can win from LCW in the final match (pretty easily). my point is, players do get advantages sometimes, not only LD. but only advantage doesn't guarantee anything.in my example about WC 2011, i try to point out that LCW also got advantage that time. he played earlier SF match, in shorter duration and with less effort than LD who have to play 3 sets with PG late in the afternoon for more than 1 hour. and after that, both of them must play the final tomorrow. it was an advantage, wasn't it? from physics point, stamina, and also maybe mentally. (one member once posted that there was 1-day-off between the OG 2008 SF and Final match, compared it with the WC 2011 which played daily. and what give more advantage to LCW, in OG 2008, both of them still around 24-25 years, their prime time. recovery is not a big thing. but WC 2011, they are around 27-28 years, older already.) but still, LCW can't convert the advantage to a gold medal, can he? so even if LD get some advantage, it's not that what assure him the OG gold, but simply LCW can't handle him that time.
    there is a huge difference to the nature of the game when it comes to LD vs CJ against LCW vs CJ.
    in what aspect? the easiness to win? LCW trashed CJ in WC 2011 SF. so, it's okay if LCW who trashed CJ, but if LD who trashed him (CJ) then it's just not right?

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    a fake is a fake. A cheat (CBA) is a cheat. Talk until cow come home still no one will win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    ups, sorry if i didn't make my point too clear. what i was meant to tell is that some guys think that LD got huge huge advantage from the OG 2008 SF match, and that's the reason he can win from LCW in the final match (pretty easily). my point is, players do get advantages sometimes, not only LD. but only advantage doesn't guarantee anything.in my example about WC 2011, i try to point out that LCW also got advantage that time. he played earlier SF match, in shorter duration and with less effort than LD who have to play 3 sets with PG late in the afternoon for more than 1 hour. and after that, both of them must play the final tomorrow. it was an advantage, wasn't it? from physics point, stamina, and also maybe mentally. (one member once posted that there was 1-day-off between the OG 2008 SF and Final match, compared it with the WC 2011 which played daily. and what give more advantage to LCW, in OG 2008, both of them still around 24-25 years, their prime time. recovery is not a big thing. but WC 2011, they are around 27-28 years, older already.) but still, LCW can't convert the advantage to a gold medal, can he? so even if LD get some advantage, it's not that what assure him the OG gold, but simply LCW can't handle him that time.in what aspect? the easiness to win? LCW trashed CJ in WC 2011 SF. so, it's okay if LCW who trashed CJ, but if LD who trashed him (CJ) then it's just not right?
    Exactly! LD proved in WC 11 that he can (barely) defeat LCW. That s why LD shouldn't have to worry should he meet his teammate in the Sf in OG. They should just play a real match, not like the training match in OG08. But of course, they wouldn t dare. You gotta ask why. Simply, there s no margin of safety. ( that s what happened in IO12. They thought Saina would not have anything left so LXR played a real match instead of getting a walkover. And Saina barely beat LXR. Now you know why walkover is cheating.)

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    I don't think anyone would dispute LD is a great player, perhaps the most decorated player the game has produced. But there will always be an asterisk to LD, i.e. match fixing, maybe not his doing but he is a participant, willingly or unwillingly.
    Li Ling wei once said CHN does not need to match fix and still would win, that is so true...to set the record straight, I think Yours Truly said this first, LLW said later (hint: maybe LLW is reading my posts, concur with me and repeat it)...I know it is hard to be humble, I know
    LYB was quoted saying CHN players plays 1-set, why play all out, tire the winner who would go on to play a non-CHN player, so if match fixing is not important, why do it, dude? Of course, when the event is important like OLY, why even play all-out in the first set at all, and if WO is not nice to do in OLY then just play a training match and moves on. Now, over to the other half when LD's opponent (e.g. LCW) has to prepare to win his SF and all the time knowing LD is already through to the final, waiting like a lion for a mentally and maybe physically tired out opponent to show up.
    Match fixing conserves not only physical strength, stamina and all those intangibles, but more so is mental when at the highest level, matters tons. A lot has been said CJ or CL is no match for LD, that on paper I agree but these chaps play each other all the time, they know each other so well, so in an all out war, hard to say who would beat who especially if one catches fire, and even if CL/CJ lose to LD, they sure would make LD pay big time sapping his energy, also, LD has to prepare to win, as contrary to knowing before the game starts that CL/CJ would (or told) to lose. That is a big advantage.
    We are looking at LD all-time out of the world peak form performance at OLY08 final, so would say that regardless of match fixing or whatever LCW can do or what-nots, nobody will beat LD on that night, that I also agree but still, the question remains what if CJ played all out against LD in SF, would LD be able to play back-to-back peak performance in final. That is the $64k question?
    Funny also, that past posters in this forum that argue that there wasn't any match fixing, hard to prove, blah-blah, and when LYB admitted on CHN TV, that silence the nay sayers and now, they turn to saying, match fixing has no or little effect...tongue does change or twist the words.

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    Quote Originally Posted by pjswift View Post
    Exactly! LD proved in WC 11 that he can (barely) defeat LCW. That s why LD shouldn't have to worry should he meet his teammate in the Sf in OG. They should just play a real match, not like the training match in OG08. But of course, they wouldn t dare. You gotta ask why. Simply, there s no margin of safety. ( that s what happened in IO12. They thought Saina would not have anything left so LXR played a real match instead of getting a walkover. And Saina barely beat LXR. Now you know why walkover is cheating.)
    But lets be honest here.. You would most likely without excpetion call it unfair and a "fake match" as long as LD wins over CJ in the semis anyway.. As no one could "prove" that it was a "honest" or "dishonest" loss by CJ, it basically comes down to that haters will always hate, I am afraid.

    I think it is more likely that the CHN OG players are still in heavy training for peak to OG and Chineese coaches didn't play their optimal "tactic" during IO to not show their hand in terms of what tactics they will use in the single games against Saina if she face Chineese girls in OG. It would not make sense for them to show their card in IO if they have a strategi of tactics against Sainas weak-spots..

    I think another indication of that is Chen Longs early exit against Parupalli, LHI loss against Vittinghus, Sasakis loss against Rumbaka, Tagos Lost against Yun Hu.. I woudl say alot of these losses could most likely be attributed to OG preparations...

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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    I don't think anyone would dispute LD is a great player, perhaps the most decorated player the game has produced. But there will always be an asterisk to LD, i.e. match fixing, maybe not his doing but he is a participant, willingly or unwillingly. Li Ling wei once said CHN does not need to match fix and still would win, that is so true...to set the record straight, I think Yours Truly said this first, LLW said later (hint: maybe LLW is reading my posts, concur with me and repeat it)...I know it is hard to be humble, I knowLYB was quoted saying CHN players plays 1-set, why play all out, tire the winner who would go on to play a non-CHN player, so if match fixing is not important, why do it, dude? Of course, when the event is important like OLY, why even play all-out in the first set at all, and if WO is not nice to do in OLY then just play a training match and moves on. Now, over to the other half when LD's opponent (e.g. LCW) has to prepare to win his SF and all the time knowing LD is already through to the final, waiting like a lion for a mentally and maybe physically tired out opponent to show up.Match fixing conserves not only physical strength, stamina and all those intangibles, but more so is mental when at the highest level, matters tons. A lot has been said CJ or CL is no match for LD, that on paper I agree but these chaps play each other all the time, they know each other so well, so in an all out war, hard to say who would beat who especially if one catches fire, and even if CL/CJ lose to LD, they sure would make LD pay big time sapping his energy, also, LD has to prepare to win, as contrary to knowing before the game starts that CL/CJ would (or told) to lose. That is a big advantage.We are looking at LD all-time out of the world peak form performance at OLY08 final, so would say that regardless of match fixing or whatever LCW can do or what-nots, nobody will beat LD on that night, that I also agree but still, the question remains what if CJ played all out against LD in SF, would LD be able to play back-to-back peak performance in final. That is the $64k question?Funny also, that past posters in this forum that argue that there wasn't any match fixing, hard to prove, blah-blah, and when LYB admitted on CHN TV, that silence the nay sayers and now, they turn to saying, match fixing has no or little effect...tongue does change or twist the words.
    Wow, OTB, that s some serious award winning stuff you have written. Will buy you 50 sticks of Kajang? Satay and 5 packs of Kuala Trengganu keropok if you re coming to Sudirman Cup in KL next year!

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