Lin Dan ( 林丹 )

[twobeer]

I don't think anyone would dispute LD is a great player, perhaps the most decorated player the game has produced. But there will always be an asterisk to LD, i.e. match fixing, maybe not his doing but he is a participant, willingly or unwillingly.
Li Ling wei once said CHN does not need to match fix and still would win, that is so true...to set the record straight, I think Yours Truly said this first, LLW said later (hint: maybe LLW is reading my posts, concur with me and repeat it)...I know it is hard to be humble, I know
LYB was quoted saying CHN players plays 1-set, why play all out, tire the winner who would go on to play a non-CHN player, so if match fixing is not important, why do it, dude? Of course, when the event is important like OLY, why even play all-out in the first set at all, and if WO is not nice to do in OLY then just play a training match and moves on. Now, over to the other half when LD's opponent (e.g. LCW) has to prepare to win his SF and all the time knowing LD is already through to the final, waiting like a lion for a mentally and maybe physically tired out opponent to show up.
Match fixing conserves not only physical strength, stamina and all those intangibles, but more so is mental when at the highest level, matters tons. A lot has been said CJ or CL is no match for LD, that on paper I agree but these chaps play each other all the time, they know each other so well, so in an all out war, hard to say who would beat who especially if one catches fire, and even if CL/CJ lose to LD, they sure would make LD pay big time sapping his energy, also, LD has to prepare to win, as contrary to knowing before the game starts that CL/CJ would (or told) to lose. That is a big advantage.
We are looking at LD all-time out of the world peak form performance at OLY08 final, so would say that regardless of match fixing or whatever LCW can do or what-nots, nobody will beat LD on that night, that I also agree but still, the question remains what if CJ played all out against LD in SF, would LD be able to play back-to-back peak performance in final. That is the $64k question?
Funny also, that past posters in this forum that argue that there wasn't any match fixing, hard to prove, blah-blah, and when LYB admitted on CHN TV, that silence the nay sayers and now, they turn to saying, match fixing has no or little effect...tongue does change or twist the words.

You say it is LYB admitted that they currently fixes matches, on CHN TV?? Or is your argument that admitting a first-set-decides "fixed" game in the historic past is the same as admitting gamefixing currently, and in the future?? To me it sounds more like a "once a thief, always a thief" kind of argument?

People could post thing like: http://www.wowmalaysia.com/doping-ma...ng-inactivity/ and say this would "proove" LCW is using doping to get to WR1 and is a cheat.. and the so called "proof" would be that this admittantly has been a problem in the Malaysian sports organisation.

I think we need to have some higher standards of what we call "proof"...

Also I find your argument that because they train on a daily basis together that this should somehow indicate the battle would be a closer game? I don't see any vailidty to that point.. I would assume it is just as plausible, actually even more logical, that the psychology of things would make the weaker player loose even bigger, and put up less fight, as he knows from all the games they play that he really don't have the tools to challenge the better player.

...but still, the question remains what if CJ played all out against LD in SF, would LD be able to play back-to-back peak performance in final. That is the $64k question?

The $64K question is.. How can CJ prove to you that he played 100% and not 70% 60% or 50% ??? tell me how he can proove to you that he fought the best possible.. And I am willing to listen.. That is the real $64K question here..

If we talk about plyyers not giving 100% lets look at Taufik's carreer..

How can you regulate motivation, in the rules? Thats the bigger issue here..That my friend is the killer question.

Can you "proove" that Taufik didn't throw the game against Wei Feng Chong in Singapore Open to earn money on gambling?? Did he give it his 100% best effort??

[cobalt]

OK, I can give you that,. I even spelled worse than usual in that post..


How can you know (or prove) that all players he has beaten did not intend to assist him?? Especially some of the Japanese players have given him suspiciously easy wins.. Maybe it's the sponsor behind it?? I am just playing devils advocate here.. but the discussion based on pure assumptions on the "effort" of players is fruitless. Besides there is a fact that players like Taufik openly suggesting that he and LCW would assist PG to stop CJs ranking advancement. Remember http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...na-says-Taufik ...


Can't we at least agree that the general idea behind the world ranking is to rank the player based on their badminton playing strength, even if the system has its flaws..

8-3 between two player is also a pretty strong indication which one is the strongest.. I think the last time CJ lost to PG was in 2008.

Don't you think the ranking has anything to do with the players strength? Come on now.. Don't be obtuse yourself .-)


No, and No.. I fail to see how you could think that i somehow "blame" PG for CJ being ranked to low.


My point is that I think it is only fair that CJ is ranked before PG, and it is definitely not fair that one of the top 5 players in the world would be denied entry in OG based on only the fact that the country already has two players ranked higher. So I fail to be very upset that his team mates don't made their upmost to stop him from qualifying to OG, as you seem to think they should.


You are just coming up with stamens that no one is saying.. I personally think it makes sense that a country with 3 top-10 players should have the possibility if they play well to get gold, silver and bronze medals..And this would of course be the same if JAP, MAS, DK or any other country had 3 possible medal candidates. I have a hard time figuring out why you would deny China this opportunity, if you are not in some way biased against them.



Yes, I also think OG should be not only for the best! But allowing lesser countries to compete, isn't the same as denying the strong countries their chances of medal sweeps imop. I fail to see how allowing China to enter 3 top contender would deny Henri Hurskainen of Sweden his chance of glory..

Do you think it would be more fair with a max 2 players per country? or maybe just limit it to one player per country, then making it impossible for any single country to get both gold silver and bronze in our sport?

Sigh! * ! Let me try once again, maybe more slowly this time, in the hope that some simple truths get through.

1. LD is a great player.
2. LD is also a player who is indisputably involved with some highly questionable maneuvers by his puppetmaster.
3. CJ has been the lucky recipient of much of this. Remember SO 2011? Surprisingly, you forgot to include this in your reply.
4. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
5. LYB is on record justifying his cheating and manipulation. Look up OG finals 2004 or thereabouts. A leopard will not change his spots.
6. LYB compounded his stupidity by talking nonsense about LCW withdrawing in the recent TC after injury. I thought he was intelligent; even I can be wrong at times!
7. CJ eventually scraped through to #4 just in time, and the record shows that he managed this only with some very fortunate coincidences by way of walkovers, withdrawals and retirements during the OG qualifying period. All this while nursing a bad back, injuries and below-par performances.
8. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Oh did I say that already? Sorry, too much smoke here!
9. No skin really off PG's back, because he still qualifies for OG. But hey, guess what? China has got one more player that qualifies for the OG MS with all that huffing and puffing and all the smoke! Bravo!!! True Olympic spirit!!
10. Here's something I just read on this thread, and it kinda slipped my attention:

"If CJ cannot make it on his own, he doesn't deserve to be in the top 4 - period! That is called fair competition. Anything else is cheating! When will you people ever get it????? Sorry, my question should be: "Do you people ever want to get it???""

Oh, pardon me! It appears I myself wrote that, but obviously it got overlooked.

Now, I believe CJ himself is a nice guy, and a top player. But he, like LD and who knows how many more, have had their personal integrity compromised in the name of a greater good. That is where the lie is nailed. If you can't be honest with yourself, how ever can you be trusted to be honest with your neighbour?

[OneToughBirdie]

You say it is LYB admitted that they currently fixes matches, on CHN TV?? Or is your argument that admitting a first-set-decides "fixed" game in the historic past is the same as admitting gamefixing currently, and in the future?? To me it sounds more like a "once a thief, always a thief" kind of argument?

People could post thing like: http://www.wowmalaysia.com/doping-ma...ng-inactivity/ and say this would "proove" LCW is using doping to get to WR1 and is a cheat.. and the so called "proof" would be that this admittantly has been a problem in the Malaysian sports organisation.

I think we need to have some higher standards of what we call "proof"...

Also I find your argument that because they train on a daily basis together that this should somehow indicate the battle would be a closer game? I don't see any vailidty to that point.. I would assume it is just as plausible, actually even more logical, that the psychology of things would make the weaker player loose even bigger, and put up less fight, as he knows from all the games they play that he really don't have the tools to challenge the better player.


The $64K question is.. How can CJ prove to you that he played 100% and not 70% 60% or 50% ??? tell me how he can proove to you that he fought the best possible.. And I am willing to listen.. That is the real $64K question here..

If we talk about plyyers not giving 100% lets look at Taufik's carreer..

How can you regulate motivation, in the rules? Thats the bigger issue here..That my friend is the killer question.

Can you "proove" that Taufik didn't throw the game against Wei Feng Chong in Singapore Open to earn money on gambling?? Did he give it his 100% best effort??

Dude, you have been around this forum, did you not read the posts/link that LYB quoted on CHN TV he admit to fix matches, proudly justified doing so and many CHN fans are against that saying CHN does not need to do that and still would win. Where you hiding, missing out all these goodies?
The past is not the present nor the future but the stink is there, always a doubt and with the way CJ qualify for OLY12, LD's WO, that does not help to remove the smell around LYB that this chap would do whatever needed to enhance his chances of a win.
As for doping, I did not follow that, did LCW admitted that, caught on tape or the Doc fessed up or what. Doping, as in steriods, is the stupidest thing to do. OLY testing is not simple elementary lab test you can beat. Are MAS docs that smart...dude, if you follow MAS posters on doping, then you better talk to real MAS people on what they think of their docs...if you are almost dead and go see a MAS doc, then for sure you will be dead after you see them, go 6 feet underground.
Apart from LCW, CHN trio make up 3 of the world top 4. Training with each other daily, they know each other so well and either player wins, it will be physically and mentally taxing. CL and CJ would give a real fight of their life to anyone especially in OLY games where CHN players are (guaranteed) at their physical and mental best preparation.
The $64K question is if CJ played all-out and not give a pass to LD to go to final, can LD play 2 back-to-back top form performance in SF and then in the final? The point is, is the SF in OLY08 fixed, did CJ played all-out 100% or 70%, 60% as you say? No one can prove it, that is why we have this discussion here. Only if LYB admit which he hasn't or for CJ to confess which means he might get punished and his retirement cheque is cooked (I am guessing here but CJ lips could be sealed as LYB is holding his balls gently squeezing them and CJ would cry or massage them and CJ would smile)

As for TH, as great a player he WAS, he is yesterday man today playing. Even at his prime, TH is known for partying, smoking and who knows what else. TH throwing his game to CWF, possible in my mind, possible for any player too...except for PG which I have the highest respect for that he would not. But we needs proof or whistle blower that stands up in court. LYB admitted in his interview with CHN reporter that firmed up 'match fixing', to me that is proof and better yet, we do not need whistle blower, the man did it himself...proudly...so go google yourself or ask Limsy to help ya.

[twobeer]

Sigh! * ! Let me try once again, maybe more slowly this time, in the hope that some simple truths get through.

1. LD is a great player.
2. LD is also a player who is indisputably involved with some highly questionable maneuvers by his puppetmaster.
3. CJ has been the lucky recipient of much of this. Remember SO 2011? Surprisingly, you forgot to include this in your reply.
4. Where there's smoke, there's fire.
5. LYB is on record justifying his cheating and manipulation. Look up OG finals 2004 or thereabouts. A leopard will not change his spots.
6. LYB compounded his stupidity by talking nonsense about LCW withdrawing in the recent TC after injury. I thought he was intelligent; even I can be wrong at times!
7. CJ eventually scraped through to #4 just in time, and the record shows that he managed this only with some very fortunate coincidences by way of walkovers, withdrawals and retirements during the OG qualifying period. All this while nursing a bad back, injuries and below-par performances.
8. Where there's smoke, there's fire. Oh did I say that already? Sorry, too much smoke here!
9. No skin really off PG's back, because he still qualifies for OG. But hey, guess what? China has got one more player that qualifies for the OG MS with all that huffing and puffing and all the smoke! Bravo!!! True Olympic spirit!!
10. Here's something I just read on this thread, and it kinda slipped my attention:

"If CJ cannot make it on his own, he doesn't deserve to be in the top 4 - period! That is called fair competition. Anything else is cheating! When will you people ever get it????? Sorry, my question should be: "Do you people ever want to get it???""

Oh, pardon me! It appears I myself wrote that, but obviously it got overlooked.

Now, I believe CJ himself is a nice guy, and a top player. But he, like LD and who knows how many more, have had their personal integrity compromised in the name of a greater good. That is where the lie is nailed. If you can't be honest with yourself, how ever can you be trusted to be honest with your neighbour?

All your arguments eventually seems to trickle down to "where there is smoke there must be fire" which I think is quite a weak argument.

The scinetific fact is that there can be fire without smoke, and there can be smoke without fire. Dry ice submerged in water is a nice example. And elctrical toys that get to hot :-)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...hout-fire.html :-)

Truth is that the one that "HELPED" CJ the most was PG who didn't play at all up to expectations during the qaulifying period (sadly PG has had both injuries and private matters that has hampered his game). If PG had played at a level justified by his ranking CJ would not be in this olympics come August. According to Taufik there was a "pact" between Taufik and the world No.1 to assist PG as well, that was openly admitted (there was fire, but probably Taufik smoked to much to make it happen :-) )..

I also remember in HK Open.. CJ beat PG (or did PG just "help" him?) and most of the "know it all" proclaimed that LD would hand CJ the HK-Open final to propell him in the quest for helping him pass PG (no one could at that stage expect PG to perform below par during the rest of the qualifying period, so CJs OG place was in no way safe).. LD beat him 21-12, 21-19...

[bad's fan]

Let s go hypothetical. If LHI had been drawn to play LD and CJ to play LCW in the OG08 semis, what do you think would have happened? Most likely, both CJ and LD would not be mentally as fresh and the outcome for the medal matches would more likely be closer. That s what is meant by LD having the plus with assists.

the problem is, it's just an IF. yes, the results from 2 SFs might be different, the final match results might be closer or even very different, the bronze medalist might be LHI, but still, there is also a chance that the results could still go the same way, we would never know because all of it based just on IF. as now, the things already happened, nothing can changed it anymore.

as for the advantages thing, i think you guys can hold your opinion that it affect much (based on your make-sense theory about better preparation of course), and i also will hold mine that it's nothing that big/matter (because players, whoever he/she is can get such kind of advantages sometimes, i.e. WDN or retired opponents. LCW also have that advantage in WC 2011. for me, the more important thing would be how can the players deliver the chance to a win, or how the opponent managed to stop it). i personally will stop on this topic then. peace.

as for CBA's strategies, let's the BWF handle it. it's out of my reach even if i disagree with that.

[twobeer]

Dude, you have been around this forum, did you not read the posts/link that LYB quoted on CHN TV he admit to fix matches, proudly justified doing so and many CHN fans are against that saying CHN does not need to do that and still would win. Where you hiding, missing out all these goodies?

Of course I did read all this, thats why I think you have been misreading or something weird.. Can you quote exactly when he told that he would make future team orders to fix matches.

As for doping, I did not follow that, did LCW admitted that, caught on tape or the Doc fessed up or what. Doping, as in steriods, is the stupidest thing to do. OLY testing is not simple elementary lab test you can beat. Are MAS docs that smart...dude, if you follow MAS posters on doping, then you better talk to real MAS people on what they think of their docs...if you are almost dead and go see a MAS doc, then for sure you will be dead after you see them, go 6 feet underground.

Dude, why do I have to ask LCW, isnt it enough to conclude that it is a common trait based on the shown cases in the MAS sports organization. So we have established a trait of the Malaysian sports organization?? I am playing devils advocate here.. Its basically the same argument ..it there is smoke there must be fire.. it has been admitted in the organization,so surely LCW must be involved? or not??

Apart from LCW, CHN trio make up 3 of the world top 4. Training with each other daily, they know each other so well and either player wins, it will be physically and mentally taxing. CL and CJ would give a real fight of their life to anyone especially in OLY games where CHN players are (guaranteed) at their physical and mental best preparation.

That is also based on assumptions, not on any real facts.. Look at when Kenneth Jonassen was no.2 in Denmark. PG owned him easily and owned him easily even though (or perhaps even because) they sparred so much together) . But for the other top players he was not at all a pushover, due to his playing style. Kenneth didn't beat gade a single time in over 10 years!!! and he was still ranked no.2 in the world!! 2005.

The $64K question is if CJ played all-out and not give a pass to LD to go to final, can LD play 2 back-to-back top form performance in SF and then in the final? The point is, is the SF in OLY08 fixed, did CJ played all-out 100% or 70%, 60% as you say? No one can prove it, that is why we have this discussion here.

No, we are having this discussion because some people think they can state that they "KNOW" he didn't play 100%. And I am simply arguing that you shouldn't claim to know things if you don't have any solid facts, and just base your "Knowledge" on assumptions and hearsay, or a general statement from LYB in media.

Only if LYB admit which he hasn't or for CJ to confess which means he might get punished and his retirement cheque is cooked (I am guessing here but CJ lips could be sealed as LYB is holding his balls gently squeezing them and CJ would cry or massage them and CJ would smile)

But you say that LYB already has admitted?? Can you make up your mind :-)

As for TH, as great a player he WAS, he is yesterday man today playing. Even at his prime, TH is known for partying, smoking and who knows what else. TH throwing his game to CWF, possible in my mind, possible for any player too...except for PG which I have the highest respect for that he would not. But we needs proof or whistle blower that stands up in court.

Of course we do. It reflects bad on us to accuse people without proper facts on the table. both with Taufik or LD/CJ or any other player.

LYB admitted in his interview with CHN reporter that firmed up 'match fixing', to me that is proof and better yet, we do not need whistle blower, the man did it himself...proudly...so go google yourself or ask Limsy to help ya.

Yes and so did Taufik. But that is not "proof" about Taufik nor CJ or LD had fixed games. If I recall correctly LYB have admitted that he told Zhou Mi to not work her butt off during play in the semi against Zhang Ning in OG 2004, and that he felt this was the right thing to do to maximize the chances for his country to get OG gold.

I think his rationale and reasoning sucks, from a spirit of sports perspective!! (much like it has been discussed in F! when drivers had let team-mates past to "help the team".. But I don't agree with you that this is some sort of "confession" or indisputable "proof" that this is done all the time.

[ctjcad]

Y'all boys & girls can huu-haa all you want and debate endlessly, but as long as BWF can't & won't enforce anything about the suspected "cheating" by CBA (master LYB), unfortunately this episode, and some say "black-eye" on the sport, will go on..Or, unless the players themselves rebel, leave CBA and no longer want to follow the system (let's see what'll become of them when they do so?)

At the same time, CHN has just too much firepower at their disposal. What to do when you have players who are at least on par if not better than the rest of the world competition?..Again, even if master LYB let loose and allows his own players to go at it when they play against each other, there can only be 1 winner.

like master limsy wrote "Don't be jealous y'all"..

[cobalt]

All your arguments eventually seems to trickle down to "where there is smoke there must be fire" which I think is quite a weak argument.

The scinetific fact is that there can be fire without smoke, and there can be smoke without fire. Dry ice submerged in water is a nice example. And elctrical toys that get to hot :-)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...hout-fire.html :-)

Truth is that the one that "HELPED" CJ the most was PG who didn't play at all up to expectations during the qaulifying period (sadly PG has had both injuries and private matters that has hampered his game). If PG had played at a level justified by his ranking CJ would not be in this olympics come August. According to Taufik there was a "pact" between Taufik and the world No.1 to assist PG as well, that was openly admitted (there was fire, but probably Taufik smoked to much to make it happen :-) )..

I also remember in HK Open.. CJ beat PG (or did PG just "help" him?) and most of the "know it all" proclaimed that LD would hand CJ the HK-Open final to propell him in the quest for helping him pass PG (no one could at that stage expect PG to perform below par during the rest of the qualifying period, so CJs OG place was in no way safe).. LD beat him 21-12, 21-19...

Smoke and fire scientific studies?

The h2h does not matter either: you can have a bad h2h against a clutch of players and yet dominate everyone else, and end up with better aggregate; isn't that common sense?

As for your argument that PG helped CJ etc etc, in that case it boils down to who played worse overall during the LOG qualifying period. CJ wins that battle! And yet, he squeaked in at #4, again, and this time in case you miss it as you have succeeded in doing so yet, IN BOLD: BECAUSE HE GOT THE ASSISTS FROM HIS PARTNERS IN 2011-12 !!!

In case your memory fails you, people on this forum were having a ball predicting (and correctly, almost every time) the next walkover, withdrawal or "retired hurt" often even before the tournament began! And mostly with the China MS players. "Cosmic coincidence"; but you will still say: "there is no proof. Give me hard evidence." When people don't want to believe what their eyes and common sense is telling them, you will not get them to believe.

But once again, in bold now:
"If CJ cannot make it on his own, he doesn't deserve to be in the top 4 - period! That is called fair competition. Anything else is cheating! When will you people ever get it????? Sorry, my question should be: "Do you people ever want to get it???""

Now, I totally agree that BWF needs to cop most of the blame for this sorry state of affairs. You've been on that thread about walkovers/withdrawals yourself, and we all know that the old ladies at BWF are still knitting their tapestry of comic blunders. But again I cannot stress this enough: just because no one is guarding the store does not give you the license to steal the fruit.

[twobeer]

Y'all boys & girls can huu-haa all you want and debate endlessly, but as long as BWF can't & won't enforce anything about the suspected "cheating" by CBA (master LYB), unfortunately this episode, and some say "black-eye" on the sport, will go on..Or, unless the players themselves rebel, leave CBA and no longer want to follow the system (let's see what'll become of them when they do so?)

At the same time, CHN has just too much firepower at their disposal. What to do when you have players who are at least on par if not better than the rest of the world competition?..Again, even if master LYB let loose and allows his own players to go at it when they play against each other, there can only be 1 winner.

like master limsy wrote "Don't be jealous y'all"..

I think the only real solution would be if badminton can change from being a "bring gold to your country" Olympic kind of sport to "bring money to me the professional athlete" kind of sport. The amateurish setup and structure with national teams traveling in groups between tournaments, and mostly a bigger focus on the team and country than on the individual players is the root cause imop..

The core to the issue is the incentive that drives the players. If the incentive is for "king and country" it will be very different than if the incentive is pure prize-money driven..

So if we can make the game and tour more professional and individual. I think we may get rid of most of these perceived problems, and suspicions.

I think Ive said this a number of times but I think breaking up the tour in Men and Women tour would at least be a start! The more it is split up the less "team"-thingies will happen I think..

[ctjcad]

I think the only real solution would be if badminton can change from being a "bring gold to your country" Olympic kind of sport to "bring money to me the professional athlete" kind of sport. The amateurish setup and structure with national teams traveling in groups between tournaments, and mostly a bigger focus on the team and country than on the individual players is the root cause imop..

The core to the issue is the incentive that drives the players. If the incentive is for "king and country" it will be very different than if the incentive is pure prize-money driven..

So if we can make the game and tour more professional and individual. I think we may get rid of most of these perceived problems, and suspicions.

I think Ive said this a number of times but I think breaking up the tour in Men and Women tour would at least be a start! The more it is split up the less "team"-thingies will happen I think..

sure, as this has been brought up and discussed many times already in this forum; even a few dedicated threads related to the topic as well..

[twobeer]

Smoke and fire scientific studies?

The h2h does not matter either: you can have a bad h2h against a clutch of players and yet dominate everyone else, and end up with better aggregate; isn't that common sense?

As for your argument that PG helped CJ etc etc, in that case it boils down to who played worse overall during the LOG qualifying period. CJ wins that battle! And yet, he squeaked in at #4, again, and this time in case you miss it as you have succeeded in doing so yet, IN BOLD: BECAUSE HE GOT THE ASSISTS FROM HIS PARTNERS IN 2011-12 !!!

In case your memory fails you, people on this forum were having a ball predicting (and correctly, almost every time) the next walkover, withdrawal or "retired hurt" often even before the tournament began! And mostly with the China MS players. "Cosmic coincidence"; but you will still say: "there is no proof. Give me hard evidence." When people don't want to believe what their eyes and common sense is telling them, you will not get them to believe.
[B]

You rambling alot :-) stating your own (faulty) assumptions that CJ somehow posted worse result than PG late 2011 and 2012 (excluding the WO from LD in BAC, which I beleive is the only match that could even be considered an "assist" the other times he face CHN players during the qualification period, he actually got "anti-assists" by being beaten by his team-mates instead of assisted..

Anybody can look up the results in the latter part of the qualifying period and see that CJ beat many of the players that PG lost to during the same period.. I frankly don't see why you ignore the facts, if you want to make some sort of unbiassed argument?

But once again, in bold now:
"If CJ cannot make it on his own, he doesn't deserve to be in the top 4 - period! That is called fair competition. Anything else is cheating! When will you people ever get it????? Sorry, my question should be: "Do you people ever want to get it???""

You don't seem to get it at all.. CJ had no problem to make it on his OWN at all.. The ONLY reason he could be excluded from OG is because there is LD and CL around that happens to be from his country!! That is the ONLY reason he could fail to qualify.. Will "you People be able to get that???" .. sigh.. Without LD and CL around robbing him from points by eliminating him in the cup-tournament format it would be a breeze for him to qualify to OG.

I think you are not seeing the forest here because there are so many trees in the way :-)

[flite]

ups, sorry if i didn't make my point too clear. what i was meant to tell is that some guys think that LD got huge huge advantage from the OG 2008 SF match, and that's the reason he can win from LCW in the final match (pretty easily). my point is, players do get advantages sometimes, not only LD. but only advantage doesn't guarantee anything.in my example about WC 2011, i try to point out that LCW also got advantage that time. he played earlier SF match, in shorter duration and with less effort than LD who have to play 3 sets with PG late in the afternoon for more than 1 hour. and after that, both of them must play the final tomorrow. it was an advantage, wasn't it? from physics point, stamina, and also maybe mentally. (one member once posted that there was 1-day-off between the OG 2008 SF and Final match, compared it with the WC 2011 which played daily. and what give more advantage to LCW, in OG 2008, both of them still around 24-25 years, their prime time. recovery is not a big thing. but WC 2011, they are around 27-28 years, older already.) but still, LCW can't convert the advantage to a gold medal, can he? so even if LD get some advantage, it's not that what assure him the OG gold, but simply LCW can't handle him that time.in what aspect? the easiness to win? LCW trashed CJ in WC 2011 SF. so, it's okay if LCW who trashed CJ, but if LD who trashed him (CJ) then it's just not right?

Let me try one more time. At any point of my argument I did not state that the advantages LD gets was huge. In fact I didn't know as to what measure that was and so were you. After all, the advantages were there. Agreed?

As for LCW and other non-chinese players advantages be it in the WC 2011 or other tourneys, no one will debate about the advantage issue as long as it was a real genuine match. If it wasn't, then it is an issue. If not why would it need to fixed in the first place?

We can never be too sure of the outcome of matches. Any matches as long as long as the player fight it out squarely. But that SF was different. The winner is already determined even before the match begin! We are talking about what transpired before and during the SF, not the final as LD was somehow or rather got better prepared at that stage. The final of course was LD to show how ready he is for it.

[laonong]

Let me try one more time. At any point of my argument I did not state that the advantages LD gets was huge. In fact I didn't know as to what measure that was and so were you. After all, the advantages were there. Agreed?

As for LCW and other non-chinese players advantages be it in the WC 2011 or other tourneys, no one will debate about the advantage issue as long as it was a real genuine match. If it wasn't, then it is an issue. If not why would it need to fixed in the first place?

We can never be too sure of the outcome of matches. Any matches as long as long as the player fight it out squarely. But that SF was different. The winner is already determined even before the match begin! We are talking about what transpired before and during the SF, not the final as LD was somehow or rather got better prepared at that stage. The final of course was LD to show how ready he is for it.

Ok let's change the score to 21-18 21-15.

[laonong]

LD's hair looks weird these days. This may be a bad sign.

[OneToughBirdie]

Let me try one more time. At any point of my argument I did not state that the advantages LD gets was huge. In fact I didn't know as to what measure that was and so were you. After all, the advantages were there. Agreed?

As for LCW and other non-chinese players advantages be it in the WC 2011 or other tourneys, no one will debate about the advantage issue as long as it was a real genuine match. If it wasn't, then it is an issue. If not why would it need to fixed in the first place?

We can never be too sure of the outcome of matches. Any matches as long as long as the player fight it out squarely. But that SF was different. The winner is already determined even before the match begin! We are talking about what transpired before and during the SF, not the final as LD was somehow or rather got better prepared at that stage. The final of course was LD to show how ready he is for it.

Well said...To have a teammate gave a pass at SF to go straight to OLY final, that is an advantage, however big or small, still an advantage...the player does not risk injury playing a top player in SF, conserve his energy, mentally and physically, have his mind zero on his opponent in the final, unlike his opponent who would have to first win his SF then set his mind towards his opponent in the final. If I am the player, I take that, thank you very much. To say LD would beat CJ anyway at SF even if CJ would to play all out, why risk it? Take the easy way out, I know I would.

[alana07]

okay, LD has an advantage which no other badminton player has - The Thing, in his corner as coach.

[ctjcad]

the last several pages of bantering can prolly be discussed in this thread below:
http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...-his-teammates