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  1. #3146
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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Let me try one more time. At any point of my argument I did not state that the advantages LD gets was huge. In fact I didn't know as to what measure that was and so were you. After all, the advantages were there. Agreed?
    yup, i can get you point.
    my reaction would be: if you already decided to think that's what happen, then it is. because whatever happened that time, it won't change anything as you have make your mind. and of course you're free to walk with your opinion, as i also free with mine.


    As for LCW and other non-chinese players advantages be it in the WC 2011 or other tourneys, no one will debate about the advantage issue as long as it was a real genuine match. If it wasn't, then it is an issue. If not why would it need to fixed in the first place?
    i think that: a cheat is always a cheat? whatever the reason it's still a cheat, doesn't it what you guys said? based on that theory, then of course, an advantage is always an advantage. how did it come, it's still an advantage. it's back again to how a player optimized the chance he got. but it's my personal opinion.

    We can never be too sure of the outcome of matches. Any matches as long as long as the player fight it out squarely. But that SF was different. The winner is already determined even before the match begin! We are talking about what transpired before and during the SF, not the final as LD was somehow or rather got better prepared at that stage. The final of course was LD to show how ready he is for it.
    better prepared, it's relative. LCW physics, they are used to play in a full week, daily. he even used to playing rubbers before playing in the final tomorrow day. so, a day off is more than enough to a player in his caliber.
    game plan, after the SF, he got a day to discuss about it. and even if he got 5 days, it's on court plan that play the most important role. any players can make-up his/her game plan in their mind, just to get the fact that their plan don't work when playing, and need to change a plan.
    mental aspects: LCW won his last meeting before OG with LD convincingly, so what's the problem with mental? it should be LD who has the mental thing. being trashed last time they met, and now he must play in front of his home crowd that want him to bring the gold. i don't think LD's mental aspect should be better than LCW that time. or was it LCW who too overconfident based on his last win, only to find LD's the different one with the LD in TC that make LCW confuse? then it's nothing to do with LD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bad's fan View Post
    i think that: a cheat is always a cheat? whatever the reason it's still a cheat, doesn't it what you guys said? based on that theory, then of course, an advantage is always an advantage. how did it come, it's still an advantage. it's back again to how a player optimized the chance he got. but it's my personal opinion.

    How can you call it a cheat when there is no deal to determine the outcome of the match between the players prior to the game. Were you referring to LCW? Or you got a little confused as to how to justify/identify a fixed match.


    better prepared, it's relative. LCW physics, they are used to play in a full week, daily. he even used to playing rubbers before playing in the final tomorrow day. so, a day off is more than enough to a player in his caliber.
    game plan, after the SF, he got a day to discuss about it. and even if he got 5 days, it's on court plan that play the most important role. any players can make-up his/her game plan in their mind, just to get the fact that their plan don't work when playing, and need to change a plan.
    mental aspects: LCW won his last meeting before OG with LD convincingly, so what's the problem with mental? it should be LD who has the mental thing. being trashed last time they met, and now he must play in front of his home crowd that want him to bring the gold. i don't think LD's mental aspect should be better than LCW that time. or was it LCW who too overconfident based on his last win, only to find LD's the different one with the LD in TC that make LCW confuse? then it's nothing to do with LD.
    Since I already said many times why not once more. Its about all the physical and mental aspects LD had against LCW during their respective SF matches. It's about what LD unfairly gained over his opponent at that stage of the competition (OG '08). What you brought out in your post was all about LCW himself and the past records which again irrelevant to the point.

    To make it clear to you these advantages does mattered to the players. All top athletes and their coaches are looking for it all the time during a competition. If you choose to ignore this fact, it is your choice.

  3. #3148
    Regular Member AlanY's Avatar
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    [Its obvious to badminton experts and someone play the games for awhile know that Chen Jin played out of his skin in that 2008 OLY SF against his team mate Lin Dan.

    The general consent is that he played to about 125% against his previous best thus gave the other guy in the final the unfair advantage against a physically and mentally drained LD.

    *

    The advantage the other guy received in the final should be 5 points minimum per game and the score line of 21- 7, 21-3 in real term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by flite View Post
    Since I already said many times why not once more. Its about all the physical and mental aspects LD had against LCW during their respective SF matches. It's about what LD unfairly gained over his opponent at that stage of the competition (OG '08). What you brought out in your post was all about LCW himself and the past records which again irrelevant to the point.

    To make it clear to you these advantages does mattered to the players. All top athletes and their coaches are looking for it all the time during a competition. If you choose to ignore this fact, it is your choice.
    You are not going to go anyway with this, might as well save your breathe. If match fixing is not relevant, despite many CHN fans saying CHN does not need to do that, why LYB even do it at all? Some idiot even said, LYB did that in the past, is the past the present or the future? As recent as this OLY12 qualifying, the way CJ gets into the top 4 raise many flags. If every time to prove match fixing is for LYB to open his boastful mouth to admit doing so, then the idiots think we are all idiots too.

    LD in my opinion, is a better player than LCW and I would rate him as the best or one of the best this game has seen. Both LD/LCW are equal in many ways but LD has the edge in mental power of the game, and both play on even playing field, I bet LD to win...more, that is my opinion. So, in OLY SF, to have CJ gave a pass to LD to get to the final, LD not risking injury, being mentally and physically fresh, while LCW (his #1 opponent at that time) having to play a SF before facing LD, that is an advantage, however slight or big that advantage can be, still an advantage nevertheless. If LD does not need to play all out in SF to get to OLy final, why take that chance, why risk it at all?

    The idiot even said, baddy can be fair play if it is played like pro tennis with huge payout...sure, look at the empty stadium, no major American TV network, no grand slams payout $$$, baddy fans are cheap (yours truly included, play with the same racket for years, YY how to make $$$), and again in my opinion, tennis chicks are better looking (again IMO)...blah, blah, blah...the idiot can wait for a long, long time...it ain't gonna happen, the country funding support will be there. I would go even further, forget about approaching pro tennis big bucks bonanza, pro baddy could face exit from OLY and going nowhere but south following table tennis path.

    I can understand why LYB did that, I have said many times, I would too if I am him, win at all cost to pad my wallet and ascend to higher position in CHN, who care after all BWF cannot prove it and even after LYB boastfully admitted doing so, BWF is a paper tiger anyway. When the title (like OLY, AG) means a lot to CHN, as long as LYB is in control and CHN wants OLY gold badly, LYB would fix the match past, present and future. Bet on that and I do not need LYB to admit on tape.

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    Regular Member extremenanopowe's Avatar
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    There are just too much hot money from CBA and their channels. So BWF better keep a blind eye or they won't get the loot.

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    He can stay unbeaten in 5 Thomas Cups Final appearances. Can you think of any other player can reach the final successfully and stay unbeaten. None.

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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    There are just too much hot money from CBA and their channels. So BWF better keep a blind eye or they won't get the loot.
    Looks like so as you say...people do things for a reason, only idiots do things for no reason other than insanity or fun, maybe there are people who do work for free. Match fixing and boastfully admitting match fixing risks tarnishing your name and your country and put a question mark on the athlete otherwise outstanding career and stellar achievements. Then why do it to enhance your player's already supreme qualifications...to better the odds of winning, translating into rewards. And if your player happens to hit out-of-the world top form in the final, added to an easy path to the path, the fix is like an assist.

  8. #3153
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    You are not going to go anyway with this, might as well save your breathe. If match fixing is not relevant, despite many CHN fans saying CHN does not need to do that, why LYB even do it at all? Some idiot even said, LYB did that in the past, is the past the present or the future? As recent as this OLY12 qualifying, the way CJ gets into the top 4 raise many flags. If every time to prove match fixing is for LYB to open his boastful mouth to admit doing so, then the idiots think we are all idiots too.

    LD in my opinion, is a better player than LCW and I would rate him as the best or one of the best this game has seen. Both LD/LCW are equal in many ways but LD has the edge in mental power of the game, and both play on even playing field, I bet LD to win...more, that is my opinion. So, in OLY SF, to have CJ gave a pass to LD to get to the final, LD not risking injury, being mentally and physically fresh, while LCW (his #1 opponent at that time) having to play a SF before facing LD, that is an advantage, however slight or big that advantage can be, still an advantage nevertheless. If LD does not need to play all out in SF to get to OLy final, why take that chance, why risk it at all?

    The idiot even said, baddy can be fair play if it is played like pro tennis with huge payout...sure, look at the empty stadium, no major American TV network, no grand slams payout $$$, baddy fans are cheap (yours truly included, play with the same racket for years, YY how to make $$$), and again in my opinion, tennis chicks are better looking (again IMO)...blah, blah, blah...the idiot can wait for a long, long time...it ain't gonna happen, the country funding support will be there. I would go even further, forget about approaching pro tennis big bucks bonanza, pro baddy could face exit from OLY and going nowhere but south following table tennis path.

    I can understand why LYB did that, I have said many times, I would too if I am him, win at all cost to pad my wallet and ascend to higher position in CHN, who care after all BWF cannot prove it and even after LYB boastfully admitted doing so, BWF is a paper tiger anyway. When the title (like OLY, AG) means a lot to CHN, as long as LYB is in control and CHN wants OLY gold badly, LYB would fix the match past, present and future. Bet on that and I do not need LYB to admit on tape.
    Without feelings of respect, what is there to distinguish men from beasts? - Confucius

    All this talk about idots etc. just reflects poor character and missing a respectful tone in my humble opinion.
    Last edited by twobeer; 06-26-2012 at 10:40 AM.

  9. #3154
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    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    Li Ling wei once said CHN does not need to match fix and still would win, that is so true...to set the record straight, I think Yours Truly said this first, LLW said later (hint: maybe LLW is reading my posts, concur with me and repeat it)...I know it is hard to be humble, I know
    It's hard to be humble when your great huh?

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    I'm not a fan of LD as I don't like this playing style and personality. He's strokes and footwork are not smooth and for some reason seems a little unorthadox to me although I can't pin point what it is about them.

    However, even I have to admit that there has not been a better singles player in the last ~10yrs or so. He has immense natural born talent, consistent, highly intelligent and an ability to adapt to changes. I know there are many LCW fans or fans of other players who'd probably disagree but in my view the difference with LD is the marriage of natural talent and not being confined to playing the classical techniques. LCW on the other hand plays with a more orthadox style, he is talented but he's had to work hard for it. Difficult to explain, but LD's natural talent and intelligence is obvious for me. I would say that if you introduced both players to a new sport for a day, table tennis for example then LD would still fair better - some are just born with it!

    I said above that I felt that his strokes were slightly unorthadox, this is probably how he is able to adapt better than others and become more efficient and not be constrained. I see his style a bit like Bruce Lee when he developed "Jeet Kune Do". It's not the prettiest of styles nor is it conventional, but it is efficient and allows for adaption. It is this ability to adapt and not be confined to conventional techniques that gives him the edge, particularly when he's on bad form.

    TH is another with huge natural born talent but he is too regimented, uncreative/predictable and lack a "higher gear" to which he can turn on when required.

    However having said all this, I think the best player that's ever lived is ZJH. Sure, he probably wouldn't beat LD if they could play each other in their prime. But the level and speed of the game has moved on since ZJH's time. If ZJH was born in the same era as LD, ZJH would probably be the better player imo. Who knows, in 10 years time we may be looking at another dominance that would dwarf LD's achievements. We said Sampras wouldn't be bettered, then Federer came along!

    This is bound to cause some disagreement amongst fans, but it's just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by extremenanopowe View Post
    There are just too much hot money from CBA and their channels. So BWF better keep a blind eye or they won't get the loot.
    As if accusing BWF and CBA of cheating(the former guilty of complicity) isn't enough,now you even add in corruption?!

    Now ,I remember,you're the guy who once wanted to put a curse on Lin Dan to suffer injury,no?

    The cloak of anonymity doesn't guarantee you impunity. And freedom of expression(synonymous with freedom of speech) isn't absolute but subject to limitations of slander,libel,obscenity,and incitement to commit a crime, and carries with it special duties and responsibilities.

    Anyway,it's on record here,you are one of the three who accused CBA and,by extension,BWF, of cheating. As for CBA,I presumed the accused are Lin Dan and Chen Jin, Li YongBo(the mastermind),and Xia XuanZe and Tang XianHu (for connivance and aiding and abetting).

    Precisely,as you've said, no use talking till the cows come home,only when the accuser(s) bring the accused to court can the issue be resolved once and for all. Wonder what the verdict will be. Anyway,I seriously doubt you accusers will do anything other than continue to whine and whimper or rant and rave here in this forum hiding behind the cloak of anonymity with impunity. With impunity? Maybe not anymore. For your knowledge, I've come across cases of successful precedents where court orders were served on Facebook in one case,and Google in another,to reveal the identities of cyber-abusers/bullies/slanderers/libelers/trolls to pursue private prosecutions against them. If that's the case,it should be common knowledge that CBA and BWF reserve the right whether or what action to take and when,I suppose.

  12. #3157
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    ---snip---
    You don't seem to get it at all.. CJ had no problem to make it on his OWN at all.. The ONLY reason he could be excluded from OG is because there is LD and CL around that happens to be from his country!! That is the ONLY reason he could fail to qualify.. Will "you People be able to get that???" .. sigh.. Without LD and CL around robbing him from points by eliminating him in the cup-tournament format it would be a breeze for him to qualify to OG.
    Cup-tournament? Are you referring to TC, SC etc? If CJ wasn't featuring there, don't you think the possible reason is that LYB might have thought him to be a liability?

    Or is Cup-tournament any Open competition like IO PSS, China Masters etc? In that case, let me remind you that any "eliminating" in this cup-tournament format is supposed to be without regard to national identity, only purely on individual merit. So why would you use a phrase like "LD and CL around robbing him from points" to describe his defeats? Why would you not say "LD and CL fairly and squarely defeating CJ"? Wouldn't that be an unbiased view? Get it???

    I think you are not seeing the forest here because there are so many trees in the way :-)
    Oh I see the forest all right. I see the overall pattern and I am not selectively blind to what is happening. As I said before, maybe there is no concrete evidence that can be brought forward in a court of law, but only the stubbornly obtuse person will deny that the spirit of the rules have not been twisted and the laws of the game not been misused. But that is up to the individual. If some people wish to remain in denial they are entitled to do so. Don't expect me to go with it.

    As for the rules governing OLY qualification, the BWF is to blame for creating a situation that gave rise to this entire issue. I've said that before, how often does one have to say it before it sinks in? I've also said: "just because no one is guarding the store does not give you the license to steal the fruit." It's a simple truth. But who needs to say it before you accept it? Confucius?

  13. #3158
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    I'm not a fan of LD as I don't like this playing style and personality. He's strokes and footwork are not smooth and for some reason seems a little unorthadox to me although I can't pin point what it is about them.

    However, even I have to admit that there has not been a better singles player in the last ~10yrs or so. He has immense natural born talent, consistent, highly intelligent and an ability to adapt to changes. I know there are many LCW fans or fans of other players who'd probably disagree but in my view the difference with LD is the marriage of natural talent and not being confined to playing the classical techniques. LCW on the other hand plays with a more orthadox style, he is talented but he's had to work hard for it. Difficult to explain, but LD's natural talent and intelligence is obvious for me. I would say that if you introduced both players to a new sport for a day, table tennis for example then LD would still fair better - some are just born with it!

    I said above that I felt that his strokes were slightly unorthadox, this is probably how he is able to adapt better than others and become more efficient and not be constrained. I see his style a bit like Bruce Lee when he developed "Jeet Kune Do". It's not the prettiest of styles nor is it conventional, but it is efficient and allows for adaption. It is this ability to adapt and not be confined to conventional techniques that gives him the edge, particularly when he's on bad form.

    TH is another with huge natural born talent but he is too regimented, uncreative/predictable and lack a "higher gear" to which he can turn on when required.

    However having said all this, I think the best player that's ever lived is ZJH. Sure, he probably wouldn't beat LD if they could play each other in their prime. But the level and speed of the game has moved on since ZJH's time. If ZJH was born in the same era as LD, ZJH would probably be the better player imo. Who knows, in 10 years time we may be looking at another dominance that would dwarf LD's achievements. We said Sampras wouldn't be bettered, then Federer came along!

    This is bound to cause some disagreement amongst fans, but it's just my opinion.
    Well, you've got one who will agree completely with what you've written!

    As for LD's slightly unorthodox style, the thing is that it suits his physicality, temperament and allows him to express his uniqueness and individuality. He thrives on competition, I think his greatest ally is his mental strength and the almost inhuman confidence that he can project at will when he is on court. My 2c...

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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    I'm not a fan of LD as I don't like this playing style and personality. He's strokes and footwork are not smooth and for some reason seems a little unorthadox to me although I can't pin point what it is about them.

    However having said all this, I think the best player that's ever lived is ZJH. If ZJH was born in the same era as LD, ZJH would probably be the better player imo. Who knows, in 10 years time we may be looking at another dominance that would dwarf LD's achievements. We said Sampras wouldn't be bettered, then Federer came along!
    Agreed and very well said. ZJH's skills, speed and style of play were more natural even at the very early stage of his career.

    He doesn't need much development on those department.
    Last edited by flite; 06-26-2012 at 02:52 PM.

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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by R20190 View Post
    ...
    I said above that I felt that his strokes were slightly unorthadox, this is probably how he is able to adapt better than others and become more efficient and not be constrained. I see his style a bit like Bruce Lee when he developed "Jeet Kune Do". It's not the prettiest of styles nor is it conventional, but it is efficient and allows for adaption. It is this ability to adapt and not be confined to conventional techniques that gives him the edge, particularly when he's on bad form.

    TH is another with huge natural born talent but he is too regimented, uncreative/predictable and lack a "higher gear" to which he can turn on when required.
    ...
    pretty much the change in the ranks occurred after the 2006 AG, after TH won arguably his last "major" tourney during the AG.
    Also note, most if not all of TH's success occurred when the scoring system was still the OSS (15 pts); i believe he won 1 SS title since winning the 2006 AG MS title (using the NSS-new scoring system). Lin Dan also had some success during that old scoring system period but his meteoric rise & some say his "domination" began in 2007 until now. Overall, LD has been more consistent with his performance, yes perhaps a lot to do with his continually evolving game; despite winning literally every single available titles there are incl. the OG (except the Indonesian Open and S'pore Open titles & the Canadian Open and US Open titles).
    While OTOH, TH's level of play has slowly deteriorated to now being almost an exhibition-type level>some would point to his lack of commitment in training, or just a lack of focus on his baddy career (after getting married & starting a family) after 2006.

    ..anyway, hope to see you in London during BC get-together, R20190!
    Last edited by ctjcad; 06-26-2012 at 03:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Cup-tournament? Are you referring to TC, SC etc? If CJ wasn't featuring there, don't you think the possible reason is that LYB might have thought him to be a liability?

    Or is Cup-tournament any Open competition like IO PSS, China Masters etc? In that case, let me remind you that any "eliminating" in this cup-tournament format is supposed to be without regard to national identity, only purely on individual merit. So why would you use a phrase like "LD and CL around robbing him from points" to describe his defeats? Why would you not say "LD and CL fairly and squarely defeating CJ"? Wouldn't that be an unbiased view? Get it???
    5 times during the qualifying period he got beaten by team-mates that know his weaknesses and tactics inside out, and also without any coaching during these matches (which make a huge deal for less creative players like CJ chanses against the stronger team-members imop)..

    So Yes, all those draws against his teammates lost him valuable ranking points.

    The thing is that Gade did not beat those guys a single time during the qualifying period, but luckily for him he did not have to face them so many times due to the draws, and therefore CJ lost more ranking against them than gade did (So you could say that CJ got hurt more by their precense than PG for example, therefore my "robbing" expression).

    Also keep in mind that Gade for example being ranked highest in his country/team will get more opportunity to get ranking points in BWF team-competitions. Due to playing 1st singles for DK ind TC, SC, European team championships etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Oh I see the forest all right. I see the overall pattern and I am not selectively blind to what is happening. As I said before, maybe there is no concrete evidence that can be brought forward in a court of law, but only the stubbornly obtuse person will deny that the spirit of the rules have not been twisted and the laws of the game not been misused. But that is up to the individual. If some people wish to remain in denial they are entitled to do so. Don't expect me to go with it.
    Not really. The bigger picture here is that the qualification rules are unfair to a player like CJ, who I think most people would agree currently is a stronger player than all players including Gade, excluding LCW, LD and CL.
    I think the spirit of the rules is that the four strongest players in the world should play in OG, otherwise they would have limited the qualification to just 2-players per country.. saying that any countrycan only get max two medals per badminton event.

    I don't think it can be viewed as fair and morally right that he should be excluded from chances of taking an OG medal (and also of course deprived of all the possible personal OG WR-ranking points!).

    Basically BWF stacked the odds against getting 3 MS to Olympics... And I don't think the Chineese team think the rules are fair, to begin with..

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    As for the rules governing OLY qualification, the BWF is to blame for creating a situation that gave rise to this entire issue. I've said that before, how often does one have to say it before it sinks in? I've also said: "just because no one is guarding the store does not give you the license to steal the fruit." It's a simple truth. But who needs to say it before you accept it? Confucius?
    But who is "stealing" fruit from whom here? It is really stretching it beyond reason to say CJ is stealing an OG-spot from someone? Who would he be stealing that from?? It would be more easilly argued that BWF tried to steal CJs chance of getting an OG medal and some major ranking points to his WR, by makin it extremely hard to get three qualifiers from any NOC.

    I think plato once said “…it’s better in fact to be guilty of manslaughter than of fraud about what is fair and just.” .. maybe pushing it a bit, but denying CJ in the OG draw and allowing guys from Sweden and Maldives to play cannot really be considered fair and just, in the olympic spirit!!
    Last edited by twobeer; 06-26-2012 at 04:30 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer View Post
    ...Basically BWF stacked the odds against getting 3 MS to Olympics... And I don't think the Chineese team think the rules are unfair, to begin with..
    i think another way to eradicate the supposed "cheating" and match fixing by CBA & master LYB is for BWF to simply change the rule from allowing 3 players from 1 NOC (WR in top 4) to qualify for the OG to only 1 per NOC (okay, maybe give 2)!!! Problem solved.. If that's the case, let's see how clever master LYB can figure out & devise a way to do all the match fixing & cheating etc.

    Looking back, as long as there're loopholes and ways to manipulate/take advantage of the rules, it's almost as if BWF is the one who's allowing all this to happen & without oversight..hmm?
    Last edited by ctjcad; 06-26-2012 at 04:39 PM.

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