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  1. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaarix View Post
    What on earth are you talking about ? I'm sure you're kidding, but honestly... zero chance?... >_>.

    That's exactly what I was trying to say. The top players of today, except perhaps LCW, seem to just be the same old players of a few years ago... just getting a bit on the old side now... There's no question Lin Dan has developed as a player. But I don't think it's *just* that which contributes to his dominance since the Olympics. If the level of competition were at the standard of a few years ago, I think Lin Dan would still be the best for sure, but may not be able to win practically every tournament he enters...

    If he only has to play one player capable of even coming close to beating him in any given tournament, he's not going to have too much trouble is he? If he meets two or three who can give him trouble, then he can't be quite as confident. The chances of being knocked out get higher and higher. The more players, the more chances. So yes, I think quantity has a lot to do with competition, and the lack of it gives Lin Dan this "unbeatable" aura. He's great, but not unbeatable.

    Anyway, I just want to see an overall stronger Mens Singles field. I hope some of the younger players can show a bit more potential.
    so u say by having more number of MS players of lower ability, an uninjured LD can be beaten just by random chances huh? u must be an evolutionist too. OK, i'll let u determine the probability of LD losing. Tell me the statistical probability of an opponent of LD that could hit the shuttle at the net cord and roll it over, 42 times in two sets.

  2. #325
    Regular Member lcleing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaarix View Post
    What on earth are you talking about ? I'm sure you're kidding, but honestly... zero chance?... >_>.



    That's exactly what I was trying to say. The top players of today, except perhaps LCW, seem to just be the same old players of a few years ago... just getting a bit on the old side now... There's no question Lin Dan has developed as a player. But I don't think it's *just* that which contributes to his dominance since the Olympics. If the level of competition were at the standard of a few years ago, I think Lin Dan would still be the best for sure, but may not be able to win practically every tournament he enters...

    If he only has to play one player capable of even coming close to beating him in any given tournament, he's not going to have too much trouble is he? If he meets two or three who can give him trouble, then he can't be quite as confident. The chances of being knocked out get higher and higher. The more players, the more chances. So yes, I think quantity has a lot to do with competition, and the lack of it gives Lin Dan this "unbeatable" aura. He's great, but not unbeatable.

    Anyway, I just want to see an overall stronger Mens Singles field. I hope some of the younger players can show a bit more potential.
    I do not agree that the average standard of play of MS has declined during these past few years. I believe LD is a dominant force now because he has become such a complete player recently. If you look back in history, net play wasn't LD's strength back in 2006 and that has cost him an Asian Games title. However, he could outplay any good players at net in recent time. And also, his movement might not seem to be as "explosive(or appeared to be fast)" as he was back in 2004 but do not get fool by optical illusion. He can twist and turn his direction just as fast as when he was at 2004 but with less effort(more efficient movement). That made him seems a little "slower"(less abrupt movement) but in actual fact he reach the shuttle way faster compared to few years ago due to his fluidic movement. Not only that, LD has also improved his play in the front court area. Check out his match against LCW in sudirman cup 2009, he was able to play an almost perfect control game with LCW which I doubt he would be able to do prior to 2008.

    Having said that, LCW has also improved alot ever since his defeat in the Olympic game. LCW takes the shuttle alot earlier now and play less fancy shots. I dont know about what you think, but he seems to be playing at a much faster pace than he was back in 2008(alot more aggressive too). I think this is why alot of players struggled against LCW as they find it hard to cope with his speed and you certainly dont see that alot prior to 2008.

    Not that the MS players are not improving, it's just that LD and LCW have improved so much that other players find it hard to keep up with them(especially TH, when he found out that his "old tricks" no longer work on these 2 players). The only player I found that is being able to keep up with them is probably PG(but age factor is an issue) and Chen Jin. BaoCL has been a little inconsistent lately, I think his confidence and form suffered a little after his knee injury incident.
    Last edited by lcleing; 11-28-2009 at 05:09 PM.

  3. #326
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    Anyway , i feel Lee chong wei is the only one in the world still got another 50 % chance of beating Lin dan , the rest no chance!

  4. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcleing View Post
    I do not agree that the average standard of play of MS has declined during these past few years. I believe LD is a dominant force now because he has become such a complete player recently. If you look back in history, net play wasn't LD's strength back in 2006 and that has cost him an Asian Games title. However, he could outplay any good players at net in recent time. And also, his movement might not seem to be as "explosive(or appeared to be fast)" as he was back in 2004 but do not get fool by optical illusion. He can twist and turn his direction just as fast as when he was at 2004 but with less effort(more efficient movement). That made him seems a little "slower"(less abrupt movement) but in actual fact he reach the shuttle way faster compared to few years ago due to his fluidic movement. Not only that, LD has also improved his play in the front court area. Check out his match against LCW in sudirman cup 2009, he was able to play an almost perfect control game with LCW which I doubt he would be able to do prior to 2008.

    Having said that, LCW has also improved alot ever since his defeat in the Olympic game. LCW takes the shuttle alot earlier now and play less fancy shots. I dont know about what you think, but he seems to be playing at a much faster pace than he was back in 2008(alot more aggressive too). I think this is why alot of players struggled against LCW as they find it hard to cope with his speed and you certainly dont see that alot prior to 2008.

    Not that the MS players are not improving, it's just that LD and LCW have improved so much that other players find it hard to keep up with them(especially TH, when he found out that his "old tricks" no longer work on these 2 players). The only player I found that is being able to keep up with them is probably PG(but age factor is an issue) and Chen Jin. BaoCL has been a little inconsistent lately, I think his confidence and form suffered a little after his knee injury incident.
    Completely agree with everything you said except what is highlighted (is there such a word?) in red. LD is the dominant force...

  5. #328
    Regular Member phaarix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    so u say by having more number of MS players of lower ability, an uninjured LD can be beaten just by random chances huh? u must be an evolutionist too. OK, i'll let u determine the probability of LD losing. Tell me the statistical probability of an opponent of LD that could hit the shuttle at the net cord and roll it over, 42 times in two sets.
    No thanks. Stop being ridiculous. Even average players can win the odd point off Lin Dan without the aid of a net cord. If you want to be convincing, why the need to exaggerate?

    (Also, when the heck did I say lower ability??)

    Quote Originally Posted by lcleing View Post
    I do not agree that the average standard of play of MS has declined during these past few years. I believe LD is a dominant force now because he has become such a complete player recently....
    Yes I do think Lin Dan would still be the dominant force in MS regardless. But I still believe the standard of most other players has dropped a bit. Not because Lin Dan is doing so well, but because after watching mostly more recent videos lately, and then going back to watch a few older matches... I was a little shocked to see how much more exciting they were :S. Not just that, but the fact that it wasn't just the same two players over and over again... Maybe LCW has improved a bit since 2008 too. But I can't really tell. I wouldn't think it was anything drastic. An old Peter Gade (and even Hafiz) could still take him to three sets in the HKO... so surely he can't be THAT much better?
    Last edited by phaarix; 11-28-2009 at 07:50 PM.

  6. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaarix View Post
    If he only has to play one player capable of even coming close to beating him in any given tournament, he's not going to have too much trouble is he? If he meets two or three who can give him trouble, then he can't be quite as confident. The chances of being knocked out get higher and higher. The more players, the more chances. So yes, I think quantity has a lot to do with competition, and the lack of it gives Lin Dan this "unbeatable" aura. He's great, but not unbeatable.
    Quote Originally Posted by phaarix View Post
    No thanks. Stop being ridiculous. Even average players can win the odd point off Lin Dan without the aid of a net cord. If you want to be convincing, why the need to exaggerate?

    (Also, when the heck did I say lower ability??)
    who's talking about winning points off LD? I was referring to YOUR previous statement about having more MS players, chances that one will beat LD. To win a set, don't you to be the first one to reach 21??? What is the exaggeration?

    However, u r making progress. A year before, u never believed LD was the best. Today, u have, only with some attached disclaimers.
    Last edited by cooler; 11-28-2009 at 08:26 PM.

  7. #330
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    So unfair to say today players is not as good as before such that they make LD look so good. Quite contraray. LD is so good he makes other look medicore although lcw,TH, PG, PSH, LHI, SDK, BP, CJ, BCL, CH are not medicore players. All these players are levels above previous generation pros.

  8. #331
    Regular Member phaarix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    who's talking about winning points off LD? I was referring to YOUR previous statement about having more MS players, chances that one will beat LD. To win a set, don't you to be the first one to reach 21??? What is the exaggeration?

    However, u r making progress. A year before, u never believed LD was the best. Today, u have, only with some attached disclaimers.
    You, duh. You were trying to say that to win they'd need 21 net cords per set in order to prove they had next to zero chance of winning. In other words, they would have zero chance of winning a point any other way. Nice joke, but I thought you used "facts" and solid proof ?

    A year ago I never believed Lin Dan was the best? Huh? I'm pretty sure most of the time I was just saying I preferred Taufik's style (preferred). I found him more entertaining to watch (and for some reason a lot of people seemed to think it was an attack on Lin Dan's superiority >_>). Which often led to me having to defend my right to an opinion *sigh*. Even that was more than a year ago I'm preeettty sure... You sure like to misinterpret things.

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    So unfair to say today players is not as good as before such that they make LD look so good. Quite contraray. LD is so good he makes other look medicore although lcw,TH, PG, PSH, LHI, SDK, BP, CJ, BCL, CH are not medicore players. All these players are levels above previous generation pros.
    I was never talking about decades ago, just a few years . Obviously today's players are generally more capable than players from the 80s... 90s.. etc.

    It's funny how you just mention one little thing that may contribute to Lin Dan's dominance, and ALL the most biased fans immediately rush to his defence. As if he has to be perfect and it absolutely HAS to be all him.
    Last edited by phaarix; 11-28-2009 at 09:25 PM.

  9. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by phaarix View Post
    You, duh. You were trying to say that to win they'd need 21 net cords per set in order to prove they had next to zero chance of winning. In other words, they would have zero chance of winning a point any other way. Nice joke, but I thought you used "facts" and solid proof ?

    A year ago I never believed Lin Dan was the best? Huh? I'm pretty sure most of the time I was just saying I preferred Taufik's style (preferred). I found him more entertaining to watch (and for some reason a lot of people seemed to think it was an attack on Lin Dan's superiority >_>). Which often led to me having to defend my right to an opinion *sigh*. Even that was more than a year ago I'm preeettty sure... You sure like to misinterpret things.



    I was never talking about decades ago, just a few years . Obviously today's players are generally more capable than players from the 80s... 90s.. etc.

    It's funny how you just mention one little thing that may contribute to Lin Dan's dominance, and ALL the most biased fans immediately rush to his defence. As if he has to be perfect and it absolutely HAS to be all him.
    1. the point was, any other kind of shots LD would get them generally. Winning points any other ways wont give u the win over LD.

    2. yes, i talk alot on LD here because this is a LD thread Sorry, that's the rule

  10. #333
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    yup, this is dedicated to him ( i mean his tread )

  11. #334
    Regular Member phaarix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    1. the point was, any other kind of shots LD would get them generally. Winning points any other ways wont give u the win over LD.

    2. yes, i talk alot on LD here because this is a LD thread Sorry, that's the rule
    Quote Originally Posted by Zabee View Post
    yup, this is dedicated to him ( i mean his tread )
    What the heck???? I never said you shouldn't talk about Lin Dan here :S. Honestly... why do I bother... Anyway, maybe you should think twice before derailing other player's threads in future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by phaarix View Post
    What the heck???? I never said you shouldn't talk about Lin Dan here :S. Honestly... why do I bother... Anyway, maybe you should think twice before derailing other player's threads in future.
    I fully understand your predicament. Things don't agree with you is why u don't understands it

  13. #336
    Regular Member phaarix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler View Post
    I fully understand your predicament. Things don't agree with you is why u don't understands it
    If you say so. Well I'll leave you to it then .

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    You claimed that the average hasn't dropped yet you provide no evidence to back that up...

    LCW improved a lot? Then how come his performance against Sony, Simon, PG doesn't show any significant change? Or maybe PG, at age 33, also has significantly improved?

    You don't see players struggle against LCW prior to 2008? Huh? Did you watch 2007 French Open where LCW demolished CJ and BCL? Has LCW been able to do that in 2008 or 09? No. Or 2007 Sudirman and Japan Open where LCW frustrated LD? Or 2006 Thomas cup where LCW totally out-paced LHI? (In comparison, in both 2008 Malaysia Open and 2008 OG, a well-in-form LCW needs 3 games to beat LHI, who's already 28 years old).

    Watch 2003 Japan Open LD vs XXZ and check the quality of LD's netshots then. Or check any LD vs LHI (a top net player) game since 2004 and see whether LD was afraid of LHI at the net. Ever since 2002, as long as LD can out-pace his opponent, net play is never a problem for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by lcleing View Post
    I do not agree that the average standard of play of MS has declined during these past few years. I believe LD is a dominant force now because he has become such a complete player recently. If you look back in history, net play wasn't LD's strength back in 2006 and that has cost him an Asian Games title. However, he could outplay any good players at net in recent time. And also, his movement might not seem to be as "explosive(or appeared to be fast)" as he was back in 2004 but do not get fool by optical illusion. He can twist and turn his direction just as fast as when he was at 2004 but with less effort(more efficient movement). That made him seems a little "slower"(less abrupt movement) but in actual fact he reach the shuttle way faster compared to few years ago due to his fluidic movement. Not only that, LD has also improved his play in the front court area. Check out his match against LCW in sudirman cup 2009, he was able to play an almost perfect control game with LCW which I doubt he would be able to do prior to 2008.

    Having said that, LCW has also improved alot ever since his defeat in the Olympic game. LCW takes the shuttle alot earlier now and play less fancy shots. I dont know about what you think, but he seems to be playing at a much faster pace than he was back in 2008(alot more aggressive too). I think this is why alot of players struggled against LCW as they find it hard to cope with his speed and you certainly dont see that alot prior to 2008.

    Not that the MS players are not improving, it's just that LD and LCW have improved so much that other players find it hard to keep up with them(especially TH, when he found out that his "old tricks" no longer work on these 2 players). The only player I found that is being able to keep up with them is probably PG(but age factor is an issue) and Chen Jin. BaoCL has been a little inconsistent lately, I think his confidence and form suffered a little after his knee injury incident.

  15. #338
    Regular Member lcleing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    You claimed that the average hasn't dropped yet you provide no evidence to back that up...

    LCW improved a lot? Then how come his performance against Sony, Simon, PG doesn't show any significant change? Or maybe PG, at age 33, also has significantly improved?

    You don't see players struggle against LCW prior to 2008? Huh? Did you watch 2007 French Open where LCW demolished CJ and BCL? Has LCW been able to do that in 2008 or 09? No. Or 2007 Sudirman and Japan Open where LCW frustrated LD? Or 2006 Thomas cup where LCW totally out-paced LHI? (In comparison, in both 2008 Malaysia Open and 2008 OG, a well-in-form LCW needs 3 games to beat LHI, who's already 28 years old).

    Watch 2003 Japan Open LD vs XXZ and check the quality of LD's netshots then. Or check any LD vs LHI (a top net player) game since 2004 and see whether LD was afraid of LHI at the net. Ever since 2002, as long as LD can out-pace his opponent, net play is never a problem for him.
    You are funny. Am I writing a thesis here where I suppose to provide rigorous proof to support each of my claims? Well, have it your way then. You back out your argument with "proof"(albeit it's just a SS match), mine doesn't count. You win. Are you happy now?

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    Unfortunately I am not happy...

    If you don't want to support your claims with evidences, then why bother posting the claims? What use can your claim be to others? In fact, you bothered to provide supporting material for your other claim "LD has improved a lot".

    As far as I am concerned, I post here to discuss with other people, and thus increasing my understanding of badminton. Therefore I always try to provide ample support for my claims. The benefit of doing this is, when other people disagree, I can know whether

    1. they disagree with my facts -- in that case, I watch relevant videos again (if I have time of course LOL) to see is there anything I have missed.

    2. they disagree with my interpretation of facts. In this case, I will make a note since maybe when I have better understanding of badminton, I will find that their interpretation is more correct. (I do this even for Mr.cooler's "LD is generous" interpretation of his losses! )

    3. they disagree with my logic. In this case, I try to see whether their logic is flawed. Because as a working mathematician, I have confidence in my logic.

    4. they are simply unhappy with my conclusion or with the fact that they cannot do 1-3. In this case, I try to ignore their comments.

    I guess you didn't truly understand what I try to say using the China Open final.

    Quote Originally Posted by lcleing View Post
    You are funny. Am I writing a thesis here where I suppose to provide rigorous proof to support each of my claims? Well, have it your way then. You back out your argument with "proof"(albeit it's just a SS match), mine doesn't count. You win. Are you happy now?
    Last edited by ye333; 11-30-2009 at 01:27 PM.

  17. #340
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    Lin Dan: Why I’m still out of action

    BEIJING: Recent impressive performances by Lee Chong Wei have raised the alarm on Chinese badminton star Lin Dan.

    The world No. 2, who withdrew from the Malaysian Open, said that his arch rival showed great promises in the Korean Open, winning the title without dropping a game in five matches last week.

    “Although I did not go to Seoul, I followed the tournament closely. Chong Wei is now really in great form. He is a very well-rounded and world-class player,” Lin Dan told sports.cn from his training base here on Tuesday.
    On why he withdrew from the Malaysian Open, Lin Dan said that he wanted to train harder and regain tip-top form before going to Kuala Lumpur to compete in the tournament.

    “But I have not adjusted to the best of condition. If I go for competitions in a hurry, I will not only be unable to play to my best ability but I will also risk getting injured,” he said.

    He added that it was inevitable that other Chinese singles players, Chen Jin and Bao Chunlai, could not play to their true ability in the Korean Open as they had not been training systematically thus far.

    Lin Dan said that he would start his season with the defence of the All-England title in Birmingham in March.

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