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  1. #52
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump_smash
    I not sure I agree with this, he has be a resonable coach, but after Olympic failure - can he contiune. Before anything else is said why treat him differntly than Morten or Indra,. After Morten worked to created some of the foundations, and Indra polished them, but BAM seem to terminate them failry quickly after what could be seen as no success or a flat period.

    Some players seem to be given quite a leway, should Roslin contiune, what are his successes, Mohd Hafiz has realy not performed except for the All England - has he peaked?
    While Li Mao has have every success with Korean Singles just look at getting three into Olmpics, and the Men's Singles Silver, who would have thought SHON Seung Mo could have got so far, he beat Sony(8th seed) 6-15 15-9 9-15 and Cheng Hong (2nd Seed) 10-15 15-4 15-10 . while PARK beat BAO Chunlai (4th Seed) 15-11 15-12.
    there is no issue of favoritisme in regards to hafiz and roslin.
    the reason being they are not BAM players. they are not burdening BAM or taking the space of other players = because they are sponsored by Yonex and not Gosen. so because they have been able to get their own funding....... other players are given the chance to enjoy the BAM sponsored funds.

    in short they are doing every one a favor by not sponging on the national sport funds

    and regards to whether they should compete in which tournament: it should be determined by nusa mahsuri their club. not BAM.
    however BAM does hold the right to bar players from competing....... but for what good reason would they want to do that to roslin, hafiz or any other player who are not burdening them nor are causing any shame to the country.

    clearing the air for the eyes of the world

  2. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by jug8man
    there is no issue of favoritisme in regards to hafiz and roslin.
    the reason being they are not BAM players. they are not burdening BAM or taking the space of other players = because they are sponsored by Yonex and not Gosen. so because they have been able to get their own funding....... other players are given the chance to enjoy the BAM sponsored funds.

    in short they are doing every one a favor by not sponging on the national sport funds

    and regards to whether they should compete in which tournament: it should be determined by nusa mahsuri their club. not BAM.
    however BAM does hold the right to bar players from competing....... but for what good reason would they want to do that to roslin, hafiz or any other player who are not burdening them nor are causing any shame to the country.

    clearing the air for the eyes of the world
    I agree with this line of reasoning.

    The way I see the situation with BAM and its recent foreign coaches from the news reports is this -

    There seems to be a definate blurring in the lines of responsibility. Players can argue with head coaches and get away with it. The head coach has to make some decisions which some players do not agree with. BAM, in its decision making, does not seem to give full backing to the head coach. Again, in this situation, the contract with Li Mao was made without Misbun having renewed his contract. That gives me a very clear message. Either, Misbun's position is very tenuous, or, BAM still hasn't learnt good management style to avoid these tensions and speculation.

    In any case, the relationship of BAM and its head coach has been damaged (from my point of view). This cannot be good for the team, but let's hope it is reversible!

    Also there should be very clear lines of authority so that decisions can be made very clear with appropriate lines of responsibility. That way, everybody, players and coaches and BAM management can avoid some of these irritating and unnecessary issues.

  3. #54
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    Default Mixed reactions to the new coaching set-up

    Source: The Star Online
    Date: Weds 12 Jan 2005

    Just some interesting reactions from people in M'sia:


    THE appointment of Chinese Li Mao as a “high performance” coach for the men's singles player has brought mixed reaction from the national players.

    Two years ago, the Badminton Association of Malaysia decided to opt for an all-local line-up to handle the national team and they appointed Misbun Sidek and Yap Kim Hock as their singles and doubles chief coach respectively. The inclusion of the 46-year-old Li Mao in the national coaching set-up has raised some eyebrows.

    There were questions over the rationale behind the BAM’s move while some felt that it was a good decision.



    EDDY CHOONG

    (Seven-time All-England champion)



    I THINK this is a very good move by the BAM. And I am more than pleased with the way Misbun handled the matter.

    He showed support. There must be co-operation between Misbun and Li Mao instead of confrontation. And from what I read, Misbun has given the assurance that he will work hand-in-hand with Li Mao. He has got the right attitude.

    Li Mao is a well-known coach in China and South Korea and I am sure his presence will help strengthen the team. I support his inclusion in the coaching set-up whole-heartedly.

    I admit, that I had supported the BAM move to give locals the chance to coach the national team. Now, they are bringing in a foreign coach because they lack coaches. I understand this.

    There will be a transfer of technology from Li Mao and the players and local coaches should benefit from this.

    TAN YEE KHAN

    (Former All-England doubles champion

    with Ng Boon Bee and a member of

    1967 Thomas Cup-winning team)



    WELL, I think Li Mao should not be coaching the elite team.

    Seniors like Wong Choong Hann, Lee Tsuen Seng and Yeoh Kay Bin will not benefit from him. You cannot expect a coach to come and change the way you play after you are above 25 years' old. The players will find it difficult to adapt to the sudden changes and it will disrupt their game.

    But I am not against the idea of bringing in Li Mao. I think it would be better to put him in charge of the juniors.

    We do not have a strong back-up base. With the experience from Li Mao, he can strengthen and improve the standard of the juniors. This move will be more rewarding for the BAM.

    I think Misbun should be left with the national team. He has been there for two years he needs time to continue with his work. Some of the youngsters under his tenure have showed vast improvement.



    JAMES SELVARAJ

    (Thomas Cupper, former national coach

    and national singles champion)



    I AM in two minds over BAM’s decision to hire Li Mao.

    I do not know the rationale behind their move. By bringing in Li Mao, are they telling us that Misbun has failed in his job? Isn't there bound to be conflict when two people with the same positions handle the same team?

    But now that the BAM have already hired Li Mao, I feel he should be coaching the elite team. I think Misbun should coach the second-base players.

    I have coached Misbun before and I have been following his movement. Misbun has a way with the youngsters.

    The juniors can relate to him. In fact, they look up to him. They can associate with Misbun as their role model. And I think he is the best candidate to groom young ones to become champions.

    Misbun should be the one going to the kampungs and identifying talent.



    ONG EWE HOCK

    (Former national number one)



    THE BAM’s decision to hire Li Mao proves that I was right.

    Two years ago, I made an opinion to them not to remove (Indonesian) Indra Gunawan as the chief coach but it fell on deaf ears.

    The BAM insisted on going all-local. Making myself heard only brought me a suspension; then the axe from the national team; and a premature end to my international playing career.

    Then, there were no results in the Thomas Cup Finals (in Jakarta) and the Olympics (in Athens) last year. Now they go back to hiring a foreigner again.

    It is a good move. But as in any company, it is difficult when you have “two heads” to lead a team. I hope there will not be problems (in Misbun and Li Mao working together).

    But if I were Misbun, I would look at the BAM’s decision to bring in Li Mao as telling him that he has not done his job well.

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    Default Misbun wants to be with his boys

    Author: Misbun Sidek
    Source: The Star Online
    Date: Weds 12 Jan 2005

    REMEMBER, two years ago, I said I have a “big house” to handle when I was appointed as the singles chief coach. To manage that house and to train the players at the same time were very difficult tasks for me.

    I was not satisfied with what I was doing because I was not able to give as much attention as I wanted to every player under my charge. If given a choice, I will not take up the job as the singles chief coach again.

    I am a person who prefers to be on the ground with the players. The more time I can spend with the players without distractions, the better the results I can produce.

    But holding the post of singles chief coach, I have other obligations to fulfil too. I have to keep an eye on the women’s singles players; I have to attend various meetings and I have to do reports. A lot of management work is involved.

    Sometimes, I was overloaded with work. At night, I got so worked up because I had to worry about what to do for the next day or the next week or the next month.

    But having said that, I was still able to perform both tasks (coaching and planning). If I am given the job (of singles chief coach) again, I can still do it again.

    But again, I will not be able to give as much attention as I want to the players. And that is not what I want.

    Lee Tsuen Seng, for instance, has an explosive approach in his game. He can last for the first game after which the lack of fitness creeps in. If I can spend more time with him, he will definitely be better.

    But I have so many other players to deal with. Everyone has different needs. It does not give me satisfaction when I cannot devote as much time as I want to a player.

    The chief coach’s job is like a PM’s (Prime Minister) job. The responsibilities are huge. Every small thing counts.

    My interest is not in management but to be by my players’ side – just like when I was with (professional badminton club) Nusa Mahsuri. Then, my job was only about coaching the players.

    You know, I am not a person who seeks publicity and glory by holding a big post. That is the bottom of my priorities. For me, the players come first.

    Fortunately, I had Ah Bok (Teh Seu Bok) and Rashid (Sidek) as my assistants for the last two years. The BAM say that a local coach will be the chief. I will not mind if anyone of them, or others for that matter, gets the appointment.

    I have coached Lee Chong Wei over the last two years. He has improved tremendously and is now the national number one.

    But I do not deserve all the credit for this. It is all in the players – their willingness to work hard and their determination to prove themselves. But some players do not want to help themselves.

    Do you know that we are lagging behind China by six years and three years behind Indonesia in the game? China’s two-time world junior champion Chen Jin is already knocking on the doors of the senior team. But the standard of our juniors are still far behind our seniors.

    Now we are more focused in terms of having different coaches for different departments.

    It will be good if a coach can have a certain number of players under his charge. It will be ideal for a coach to have three elite players. If they are juniors, a group of six will be good.

    The presence of Li Mao will strengthen the team. Both of us can share the work.

    The players we deal with can change from day to day. He can add aggression to a player while I can help the player to be more deceptive with his shots.

    Both of us have different styles but I do not think it will confuse the players. It is up to the players to adopt the styles that suit them. This will make them better players.

    And there is no amount of words to describe the joy of a coach when he sees his charges emerge as champions.

    With Li Mao by my side in a new coaching set-up, Malaysia can look forward for a better future in badminton.

  5. #56
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    Default Misbun wants to be with his boys

    Mmm interesting....

    If I was cynical I would say that it's a rather emotional plea from Misbun for his job (but as you can tell I'm rather bias against dear Misbun)

    I must say he does have some valid points above. Can a coach be a manager at the same time? Too many players and too little coaching time? All valid points.

    I guess now it's a wait and see what BAM does.

  6. #57
    Regular Member wilfredlgf's Avatar
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    It's quite a disturbing thing to read this thread; the things spoken about the Malaysian setup is nothing new - my dad as well as the local press had been good sources of information on this but to read that it is still very much a big part of the problem for the badminton setup after so long is causing me to shake my head too often for my own comfort.

    I thought they'd learn their lessons by now.

    As for Hafiz and LCW, I'd really give kudos to LCW for his commitment to do his best in training for anybody, Misbun or Li or Indra or whoever. This only shows that he has the correct attitude. It's still early, but I hope it shows dividends.

    He will be a worthy successor to WCH, not Hafiz who seems to be really arrogant and inflexible. New coaches bring new methods and a bit of variety (I'd figure quite some) is good to broaden the capabilities of the players. How could he just snub a man who just came and had just almost nothing yet? And his comments on being comfortable with only under Misbun is truly a defeatist attitude that will bring more problems than solutions.

    Come on, I have been waiting for this problem of camps and politics to at least lessen (no such thing as eliminating it, read:Li Yongbo and China) and start to really focus on glory to the country as the number one priority, personal glory second.

    From the way I see it, it's still the latter first - sugarcoated with the nation's name to make it sound credible. Are the powers-that-be realising that the main reason for the current problems of underachievement is the politics?

    *Sigh*
    Enough of my rant here - it's spoiling the mood.

  7. #58
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wilfredlgf
    Come on, I have been waiting for this problem of camps and politics to at least lessen (no such thing as eliminating it, read:Li Yongbo and China) and start to really focus on glory to the country as the number one priority, personal glory second.
    interesting that you mentioned Li Yongbo, i always wonder if the Chinese system is a better system than is used here. have one absolute ruler of the whole team, he (and apparently a even higher level committee) determines the fate of the team, including the coaches and players. who coaches what team, who plays or get sacked, are all determined at the top level and announced to the whole team in schedule meetings.

    the decisions made are final.

    there was some conflicts initially, but since then, the system has worked well for the Chinese team. it does depend on a smart top person to make the correct decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    interesting that you mentioned Li Yongbo, i always wonder if the Chinese system is a better system than is used here. have one absolute ruler of the whole team, he (and apparently a even higher level committee) determines the fate of the team, including the coaches and players. who coaches what team, who plays or get sacked, are all determined at the top level and announced to the whole team in schedule meetings.

    the decisions made are final.

    there was some conflicts initially, but since then, the system has worked well for the Chinese team. it does depend on a smart top person to make the correct decision.
    Interesting argument too, don't know if you guys know much about rugby. But in the 2004 Rugby World Cup (the Thomas Cup of rugby), England kicked a whole lot of butt and got into the final and won it.

    But 4 years before this, they employed this man called Clive Woodward as head coach. He always said "My goal is the World Cup and only judge me by me winning or losing it" All his focus was geared towards the 2004 World Cup, sure there were other rugby competitions but only one target mattered to him. He had overall say, everything was done his way. He had the players he wanted, matches etc.

    Anyways to cut a long story short, he's now Sir Clive Woodward and his team are the 2004 Rugby World Champs. My point is, perhaps a Li Yong Bo like regime is the way to go. Provided you find the right guy (or girl) for the job. Can't wait to see what happens...

  9. #60
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Default Management Styles

    I believe different management styles can exist side by side and still bring positive results. This depends on circumstances and the quality of the leadership prevailing at that time.

    Li Yongbo seems to be 'autocratic' or high-handed, but he produces results in the end. It would seem that Li Mao could not accommodate Li Yongbo's style and therefore had to be 'eliminated'. Otherwise he could become a stumbling block to Li Yongbo's plans.

    Some leaders prefer to 'consult' their colleagues first before making a final decision. And such a consultative style, though slower, can also bring about a happy ending. It would appear that Misbun Sidek falls under this category.

    But all these also depend on circumstances, on whether or not a decision must be made quickly and there is no luxury of time to gather the views of others, especially in situations akin to 'life and death'.

    I recall when Singapore was in its infancy (politically speaking), very quick decisions had to be made to ensure its survival and outsiders who did not understand Singapore's circumstances then, would have branded our leaders as being autocratic or even dictatorial. But, just like Li Yongbo, Singapore's economy flourished under such a leadership resulting in the people's livelihood improving by leaps and bounds!

    But times have changed and now that Singapore has achieved success and its people are enjoying the fruits of their labour and have travelled the world, a more consultative approach is necessary. And Singaporeans are getting it!

  10. #61
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh
    I believe different management styles can exist side by side and still bring positive results. This depends on circumstances and the quality of the leadership prevailing at that time.

    Li Yongbo seems to be 'autocratic' or high-handed, but he produces results in the end. It would seem that Li Mao could not accommodate Li Yongbo's style and therefore had to be 'eliminated'. Otherwise he could become a stumbling block to Li Yongbo's plans.

    Some leaders prefer to 'consult' their colleagues first before making a final decision. And such a consultative style, though slower, can also bring about a happy ending. It would appear that Misbun Sidek falls under this category.

    But all these also depend on circumstances, on whether or not a decision must be made quickly and there is no luxury of time to gather the views of others, especially in situations akin to 'life and death'.

    I recall when Singapore was in its infancy (politically speaking), very quick decisions had to be made to ensure its survival and outsiders who did not understand Singapore's circumstances then, would have branded our leaders as being autocratic or even dictatorial. But, just like Li Yongbo, Singapore's economy flourished under such a leadership resulting in the people's livelihood improving by leaps and bounds!

    But times have changed and now that Singapore has achieved success and its people are enjoying the fruits of their labour and have travelled the world, a more consultative approach is necessary. And Singaporeans are getting it!
    I agree with you totally on this.

  11. #62
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    interesting point Loh.

    but it doesn't look like Misbun is in the position of the top leader. the BAM president, Datuk Nadzmi Mohd Salleh is the top leader of the team. Misbun is only the head singles coach who listens to the orders of the president.

    i have further thoughts on the organization structures that you mentioned.

    for a system that started off autocratic system. for it to grow and prosper, is it neccessary that it grows into a more democratic system like Singapore did?

    or would it be ok for it to stay autocratic? the Chinese team for example, if they continue to do well, would it hurt them if somebody continues to dictate all the rules?

    and the last thought is, what stage do we think BAM is in right now? will BAM benefit from a more autocratic system?

    actually, i think BAM *is* in an autocratic system. as mentioned, the President dictates. but it appears the leader is more cut off from the actual daily running of the team. i wonder how that works with LYB. he seems to be rather tightly tied to the training as well as leading.

  12. #63
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    interesting point Loh.

    but it doesn't look like Misbun is in the position of the top leader. the BAM president, Datuk Nadzmi Mohd Salleh is the top leader of the team. Misbun is only the head singles coach who listens to the orders of the president.

    i have further thoughts on the organization structures that you mentioned.

    for a system that started off autocratic system. for it to grow and prosper, is it neccessary that it grows into a more democratic system like Singapore did?

    or would it be ok for it to stay autocratic? the Chinese team for example, if they continue to do well, would it hurt them if somebody continues to dictate all the rules?

    and the last thought is, what stage do we think BAM is in right now? will BAM benefit from a more autocratic system?

    actually, i think BAM *is* in an autocratic system. as mentioned, the President dictates. but it appears the leader is more cut off from the actual daily running of the team. i wonder how that works with LYB. he seems to be rather tightly tied to the training as well as leading.
    The presidents do dictate..however he is not the coach. When comes to sports the Coach is very important. iMHo.. the coach should dictate , and if the coach can't perform , he should be sacked.

  13. #64
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    interesting point Loh.

    but it doesn't look like Misbun is in the position of the top leader. the BAM president, Datuk Nadzmi Mohd Salleh is the top leader of the team. Misbun is only the head singles coach who listens to the orders of the president.

    i have further thoughts on the organization structures that you mentioned.

    for a system that started off autocratic system. for it to grow and prosper, is it neccessary that it grows into a more democratic system like Singapore did?

    or would it be ok for it to stay autocratic? the Chinese team for example, if they continue to do well, would it hurt them if somebody continues to dictate all the rules?

    and the last thought is, what stage do we think BAM is in right now? will BAM benefit from a more autocratic system?

    actually, i think BAM *is* in an autocratic system. as mentioned, the President dictates. but it appears the leader is more cut off from the actual daily running of the team. i wonder how that works with LYB. he seems to be rather tightly tied to the training as well as leading.
    I agree that BAM is the top policy-making body and past events somehow gave the impression that its leadership style is autocratic.

    But on an individual basis, such as Misbun's leadership style, Misbun comes across as being more consultative and willing to accommodate other views as in the current case whereby he even said he welcomed having Li Mao to help develop the national team. But as Ants has pointed out, Misbun is his own leader and when he is on court, he certainly expects his charges to listen to him and carry out his instructions to the hilt if they want to improve.

    Now, when I make my observation on management or leadership styles, I qualify by saying that it depends on circumstances. In the case of a nation, physical size and available resources, including human resource which is perhaps the most important, are vital considerations. But the more important factor, I feel, is the quality of the leadership, whether the leaders can make the right decisions in the quickest possible time! Or whether there are too many self-centered, self-interested politicians (leaders) squabbling over tiny issues and wasting alot to valuable time and little action is taken.

    When Singapore gained its independence, there were already a few other ex-colonial countries coming before it. Unfortunately, even until today when Singapore has achieved First World status, some of these countries are still held back in Third World poverty. We are talking about a span of almost two generations for such countries to improve their lot!

    What was the difference? Size is one, the quality of leadership is the other.

    Singapore is fortunate that it is small in size (a tiny red dot on the world map and you can't even see it in some recent maps illustrating the cause of the Tsunami from the epi-centre of the Sumatran earthquake!) and the population is relatively small, now only about 4 million, which includes about a quarter made up of largely foreign workers. With a small population and a strong leadership (there being only one dominant political party with little or no in-fighting for personal power), decisions can be made expeditiously and disseminated to the populace effectively. Wrong decisions can be corrected quickly thereby reducing the harm that might have resulted.

    It would appear that it is more difficult to rule a big country. But then, if we study the two world giants, China and India, which have conflicting political ideologies (Communism for China and Socialist-Democracy for India), they still managed to hold their own to varying degrees of success! Here again, we can see that the leaders have to change their style and modify their systems to a certain extent to bring more benefits to their people, who cannot be blinded anymore because of the advent of the mass media, especially the TV. To continue to subject their people in abject poverty under such circumstances will surely bring about civil riots and chaos eventually. So the respective governments have opened up their economies and allow capitalism to creep into their systems in order to satisfy the aspirations and motivations of their own people.

    So, in a sense, just like Singapore, a change for the better is inevitable as people become more literate and are exposed to the better things in life! I think China is no exception despite a relatively tight-fisted leadership style still existing. It will be a matter of time when more 'democracy' is hankered by the Chinese people and the leaders will have to fulfil.

    For whatever its worth, the American system of democracy seems to be looked up as being more superior as it now stands for it has brought prosperity to its people in very quick time. The other countries may still be able to achieve success in a modified form of democracy or a more consultative form of government, depending on prevailing circumstances.

    And this can jolly well apply to the game of badminton as well when badminton leaders compare notes to try to evolve a better system to help their players develop to their fullest potential! Malaysia is now in the best position to try this out and make a difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jug8man
    there is no issue of favoritisme in regards to hafiz and roslin.
    the reason being they are not BAM players. they are not burdening BAM or taking the space of other players = because they are sponsored by Yonex and not Gosen. so because they have been able to get their own funding....... other players are given the chance to enjoy the BAM sponsored funds.

    in short they are doing every one a favor by not sponging on the national sport funds

    and regards to whether they should compete in which tournament: it should be determined by nusa mahsuri their club. not BAM.
    however BAM does hold the right to bar players from competing....... but for what good reason would they want to do that to roslin, hafiz or any other player who are not burdening them nor are causing any shame to the country.

    clearing the air for the eyes of the world
    Sorry, didn't know that, so Malaysia is different from other countries, in Australia, players need permission from Badminton Australia to compete in IBF events.

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    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jump_smash
    Sorry, didn't know that, so Malaysia is different from other countries, in Australia, players need permission from Badminton Australia to compete in IBF events.
    i didnt say that

    Malaysia and Austrialia are the same. players will always need the BAM's permission to compete. otherwise..... ibf will not recognize any player not submited thru the national body......... its just a more complex relationship.

    my point is BAM (or even Australia) wont stop anyone from competing if
    1) they are not burdening the state body or can get their own funds / sponsorship.
    2) they are of a required standard in badminton so no shame will be brought to the country.
    im sure hafiz and roslin are of international level so there is no reason for them not to be allowed to compete. but if any player makes a fool of himself and the country (lets say breaks the law during an international competition and such) this will surely give BAM enough reason to not allow that player to compete.
    another example would be not allowing a 9 year old boy with no badminton ability what so ever to compete in the the All England

    jug
    Last edited by jug8man; 01-13-2005 at 01:05 AM.

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    Default Malaysia Chief Coach

    It has finally been announced that Yap Kim Hock will be the new Chief coach of BAM. There has been no mention of Misbun's role but it is rumoured that he will work with a couple of the senior singles players.

    Kim Hock's appointment has been on the cards since the Athens Olympic fiasco. Hope that he will keep up the good work he has done for badminton in Malaysia.

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    Default

    Can anybody tell me what is Nusa Mashuri and why Nusa Mashuri is in Bam List

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