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02-11-2005, 07:18 PM #1
Lee Jae Bok Coaching vids site - what the hell?
what the deal with this site ..has anyone looked at it?
you have to pay for every single video clip seprately?.... and if you pay for a video I think you can only watch it once and then you can't watch it again unless you pay for it again...and you can't download them either.
why can't I just get a subscription at a fair price and watch the videos whenever I want?
this wouldn't bother me if I wasnt' interested In the videos...but there is some good stuff on there I would like to learn
customer is always right! - anyone else see a problem w/this setup
02-11-2005, 08:41 PM #2
02-12-2005, 02:31 AM #3
Maybe they don't want the videos to be downloaded, copied, ripped, stolen, distributed, or whatever.
But I too am put off by the limited time period available to view what you pay for. If I buy the video I can watch it when and as often as I like.
But if there wasn't so much copyright theft, there wouldn't be so much copyright protection.
02-12-2005, 04:25 AM #4
When I first looked at the website, I had the same response. Something like:
"Humph. I'll be damned if I'm going to pay for videos I can't keep."But I couldn't resist watching a few (they had free credits to start you off at first). The videos were *so* good that I changed my mind.
I think Lee is right not to allow download of the videos. I'm sure quite a few people from this site would upload them to a file server, or make them available on a file-sharing service.
If that happened, then Lee would not be rewarded for his efforts. Very quickly, his videos would be ripped off, and then he wouldn't make any money from them.
Perhaps a better option would be to allow unlimited streaming views on IBBS. But the unreliable quality of streaming videos is still annoying; many people will want a download.
But there are ways to download the movies! I'm afraid I won't tell you how to do it, because I don't want to be responsible for destroying Lee's work. The quality of the videos, once downloaded, is much better (not higher resolution, but smoother).
If you do discover how to download Lee's videos, please consider the damage that you could do by making them available online. Don't do it! Please have respect for Lee's work (and don't forget that he's a member of this community).
Last edited by Gollum; 02-12-2005 at 04:32 AM.
02-12-2005, 08:46 AM #5
I've not bought any yet because of the streaming quality, but for crying out loud, they're not exactly expensive. Each vid is available for view for five days after purchase, which should be ample time to digest it's contents. At three quid a go that represents pretty good value for money.
I'd consider taking down the last part of your last post. Even that knowledge could be enough to kill the venture stone dead. Personally, I wish Lee every success, and will happily purchase the vids once the streaming problems are ironed out.
02-12-2005, 10:11 AM #6
Well, I would have thought it was pretty obvious that you can "save" the movies. After all, you can always just point a video camera at your PC monitor
In any case, I don't have the power to edit my post now.
If people are persistent enough, they will always discover the holes in any system. Given that a persistent person is going to do this anyway, I prefer to appeal to his respect for Lee, rather than to pretend the system is perfectly secure.
I would have thought it's pretty obvious that the system is not completely secure. It might not be obvious how to exploit the insecurity, but clearly if you are delivering media content to a user, then they can find ways of stealing it. The only way to prevent people stealing your work is to make them satisfied with the product. If you offer them a good service at a fair price, then they will not make the effort to steal it. If you don't do that (consider the music industry!), then some people will make the effort to steal your work.
But the community can help instead of hinder. If anyone here finds Lee's videos available for download, then please tell Lee about it. Distributing copyrighted material is a criminal offence, but it is hard to track down offenders if the community is against you. I believe the community here likes and respects Lee a great deal, so we should help him out if we can.
Last edited by Gollum; 02-12-2005 at 10:20 AM.
02-12-2005, 10:42 AM #7
Another option that might work is this:
You can view the videos for five days. But if you want to purchase them for good, you can pay an additional fee. Afterwards, you are allowed to view the videos as many times as you want (online only, of course).
I think people would be prepared to pay for that privilege. The thing that irks customers is that there is currently no direct way to buy the video for good.
I believe you can also contact Lee if you wish to discuss collecting his videos.
02-12-2005, 11:10 AM #8
I don't understand it. All LJB is giving you folks is the ability to view the video for five days (like video rentals).
Gollum is right in that LJB has produced these videos (instructional) as a revenue stream and you will be taking that away from him if you bypass his payment mechanism.
We should be grateful that LJB is willing to share his knowledge of badminton much like Jake Downey with his online books.
02-12-2005, 11:22 AM #9
Originally Posted by Winex West Can
I would want to go back to them time and time again. For me, personally, 5 days isn't long enough.
The only bandwidth available in my area is 56k, so streaming them isn't good either.
02-12-2005, 11:40 AM #10
5 Days should be sufficient time to digest the information from the videos, Lee has worked hard to get these online and I think he deserves any remuneration that he gets.
If you live in the UK you can of course attend one of his courses and you'll have little need for the videos.
Glad to read that you mostly all agree with not trying to "steal" his work, I do believe that the site is quite secure except maybe to some of you experts although Lee's webmaster worked hard to keep it secure. BTW he as well as lee are members of this site.
02-12-2005, 12:36 PM #11
I agree with Neil that the videos could be useful as reference material. I think that's why people would like to keep them. For example, it is useful to be able to look again at *precisely* how Lee holds the racket.
Despite this, I think that the videos are excellent value. Even though you can't use them as long-term reference, Lee's ideas are nothing short of inspirational, and his presentation is clear. You can gain more from watching some of these videos than you could from countless hours with most other coaches
I believe the site is sufficiently secure for its purpose. The webmaster did a good job; there is no easy way to save the videos, and (so far as I know) no way at all to watch a video without paying for it first. It's impossible to create 100% security, but IBBS gets as close as practical.
If this was a gaming or software community, however, I think they would have been ripped off within a few days of launch! Fortunately, I believe that the online badminton community is less technically adept and more considerate
Last edited by Gollum; 02-12-2005 at 12:42 PM.
02-12-2005, 01:47 PM #12
I am actually a software author and I run into the same kinds of piracy problems with my own work. On the other hand I have never felt that I should punish the honest _paying_ user for the misbehaviour of others.
I feel that the push to secure your revenue stream through such means penalizes the people that will actually pay for your services. Things such as zoning DVDs etc are bad for business anyway. For me there are two categories of people: those willing to buy if it is convenient and those who won't give you a dime no matter what. All the limitations of the site will scare away the actual buyers.. in a year or two the 5 day limit will be gone and there will be something like a flat rate or subscription OR the site will be down well before then and our favorite coach will have to sell his car to pay off his debt.
Me, I am keen to learn and I am currently waiting for PayPal to activate my "extended use" thingy so I can actually pay the damn 2 pounds for an instructional video.
In my own experience, making it hard to buy is THE most stupid thing you can do on the web. The site is good, the content is interesting, but commercially it is doomed to abject failure. It is just not professional.
Apple's iTunes music store shows how its done: you offer great content at a reasonable price, make it more convenient than stealing and you take people's money when and how they want to give it to you. Imagine Apple would say "please don't pirate music, give me $1.95 now, find a number on your credit card statement next month, type it into a webform, go back to the store and buy your single!"..
02-12-2005, 03:03 PM #13
I hear what you are saying, but there is a slight skew in the comparison of websites from a multi billion pound COMPUTER manufacturer (Apple), and a little known but undoubtedly talented badminton coach (LJB).
You dont really expect their respective websites to be as good do you?
I think it is quite a good site, although havent purchased/seen any of the videos their (even the free ones ). You cant knock the guy.
02-12-2005, 03:28 PM #14
Originally Posted by jamesd20
I merely make the point that he makes it very hard to buy his product. I found his site yesterday and wanted to see the videos straight away; by now he would have 30 GBP of my money in his pocket; instead I am now waiting for my credit card statement so that I can complete my PayPal registration.
Few people will be prepared to go through all of that just to see a few videos. Once you've gone through it, you can't even download the videos and will have to rely on streaming videos. Together that's going to ruin his bottom line and kill his site. That will be a loss for the whole badminton community.
I know that I read what people say about my business on the internet and I hope Mr. Bok does the same. This business model may look good on paper but as this thread proves, it is unpopular with at least some potential customers.
I very much wished that Mr. Bok would reconsider his business model and offer something like a 1 year subscription to his site for a reasonable fee, say $25-$50, and with a normal credit card payment system instead of PayPal only.
He could then take advantage of the positive word-of-mouth publicity generated by the initial batch of users and build a real long-term business on top of that.
I wish him every success, but I do think he is making things difficult for himself and his customers..
02-12-2005, 04:17 PM #15
I have been following this debate and would just like to make a few points.
Firstly, I don't think I am speaking out of turn when I say that Lee sees himself first and foremost as a badminton coach rather than a business man. Like all of us, Lee is not getting any younger and he very much wants to create a body of work to leave behind. The ibbs website is Lee's attempt to share his experience and badminton philosophy. However, a lot of work has gone into producing the videos and putting the site together. We also have the cost of hosting the site. So clearly we have to make some charges.
However, Lee is quite open to all suggestions regarding the costs of the clips and the viewing duration. There is a feedback and an "Ask Lee" section on the site so please let us have your suggestions. We will be filming a fresh set of videos soon and It has been suggested that some of the earlier clips might be bundled onto DVD and made available and we are looking into this as a possibility. Lee also plans to produce some illustrated e-books to bring more value to the website.
Finally, We started filming in August 2004 and the site went live in October. The whole project has been a vast learning curve for everyone envolved and we are well aware of the short comings of the site. I have posted on the forum before outlining the streaming difficulties and detailing our efforts to solve them. We will start filming again from next month and we will be taking the lessons we have learned into the next batch of filming and editing. The new clips should stream better and have better sound quailty.
Everyone involved wants to make the ibbs project work so please let us have your thoughts and suggestions.
Best regards and respect
02-13-2005, 03:20 AM #16
Originally Posted by skates
02-13-2005, 06:26 PM #17
Originally Posted by skates
you want my suggestions? .... first. I also agree that it is not fair to Lee to make the videos all downloadable because although I might resist the temptation .. i know the next person would probably download them all make a zip file and share it for free on Emule or Kazaa.
My suggestion is that you allow us to pay a ONE-time subscription amount which is a fair price ...which lets us Sign-In and watch the vids whenever we want. No downloading ....but we still get to go back and watch the vids later if we desire.
If the price is fair (for all the videos, and anytime i want to watch) then i would definately Pay money out of my own pocket to have login-access to your site.
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