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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morten
    I talked to a former chinese top player in my club and he said they had quit fixing the matches. He knows a lot of the players in the chinese national center and therefor statement should be true...
    Many people have been saying this since OG2004. I also think there is credibilty to it. Just watch the games and you can see they are trying their best.

    In AE2005 It semed like it was the opposite of win 1 win all, since Chen bt Bao after losing first set, Gao/Huang beat Yang/Zhang after losing first set, and Chen Bt Lin after losing first set!

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    Since you guys give your opinion. Here is mine :

    It is not like Formula 1. The first driver has to win, the second driver is a "spare part", like Schumacher and Barrichello.

    So, I don't think it was a team order from LYB.
    I don't believe it is a conspiracy.
    CH won just because he played better than the young LD. He deserved to win the title. Since the first match, he played very consitance.
    In the other side, LD is not unbeatable, even peoples named him as a "super Dan".

    After so long waiting, CH has an "hungry" of title. He also want to prove that he is one of the best. Psychologically he will fight for his honour, and maybe also for the upcoming WC.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jkusmanto
    Since you guys give your opinion. Here is mine :

    It is not like Formula 1. The first driver has to win, the second driver is a "spare part", like Schumacher and Barrichello.

    So, I don't think it was a team order from LYB.
    I don't believe it is a conspiracy.
    CH won just because he played better than the young LD. He deserved to win the title. Since the first match, he played very consitance.
    In the other side, LD is not unbeatable, even peoples named him as a "super Dan".

    After so long waiting, CH has an "hungry" of title. He also want to prove that he is one of the best. Psychologically he will fight for his honour, and maybe also for the upcoming WC.
    yes, again the mental aspect is what drove CH to succeed. I think CH was more mentallay prepared (have a game plan) to handle LD.

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    I also think there is something not quite right about that final I mean, Lin Dan completely dominated the first game showing clear signs that he was fit enough and was determined to win. But like alot of people said Chen Hong didn't really change his game in the second game yet Lin Dan was getting beaten badly making alot of easy mistakes. It's really sad if it was fixed because Lin Dan deserved that title.

  5. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schneider
    I also think there is something not quite right about that final I mean, Lin Dan completely dominated the first game showing clear signs that he was fit enough and was determined to win. But like alot of people said Chen Hong didn't really change his game in the second game yet Lin Dan was getting beaten badly making alot of easy mistakes. It's really sad if it was fixed because Lin Dan deserved that title.
    Are you saying CH doesnt deserve it?? You should consider that he went in the final for the 4th time and how he played trough out the whole tournament.

    He also had one of the hardest draft Vs Bao Vs Shon Vs Lin.

    Give him some respect for god sake! I just watched the 2nd and 3rd set and Chen Hong was just a better player than Lin. (Love his jump smash)

    By the way WCH also beat Lin in the 2nd set however lost the third one (15-1). Why can it happen to Lin Dan?

    CH deserve all the credit and I'm so happy that he won against someone like Lin Dan.

  6. #40
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    I think Lin Dan lost it rather than Chen Hong won it. As long as Lin Dan gets some rest, I think he'll be back on form for later this year. In the mean time, a rejuvinated Chen Hong and consistent Bao can hold the fort.

    I did mention that Chen Hong looked hungrier and leaner for the title, full credit to him for coming back. Chen's rallying game in my opinion is nowhere as good as Bao or Lin Dan. In fact during the Bao vs Chen match, Bao exposed a lot of Chen's weakness. Bao should have took that third game from Chen..why he did not, maybe because he was tired I would consider Bao's defence to be very good, it's only the smash at the body that really troubles him.

    One clue to how Lin Dan plays, I think he was quoting as saying that it didn't really matter as long as the title was China's end of story

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    On a slightly different angle, I can't stop but laugh at how silly and egoistic Li Yongbo is- please read bold below (3rd and 4th last para). He must have thought that he is the real star of AE05!
    ---------------------------------------------------

    March 14, 2005
    BADMINTON
    Chen upsets good friend Lin in final

    Winner outplays error-prone world No. 1 to regain title he won in 2002

    BIRMINGHAM - WORLD No 1 Lin Dan lost his title at the All-England badminton championships when he was beaten in the final by Chen Hong, his close friend from the same province of Fujian.

    Lin looked well on course to atone for his startling first-round failure in the Olympics when he won a relaxed and skilful first game, but unaccountably fell apart after that to lose 15-8, 5-15, 2-15.

    Suddenly, mistakes flowed from his racket and Chen hurried to 7-2 and then take the second game in only 15 more minutes. The third game was a rout as Lin, who may have been suffering from knee problems, played well below par.

    Chen also found increasing opportunities for his famous smash, hitting the deck from a great height more and more often and hurtling to victory in a disappointingly one-sided third game.

    It meant that Chen, who had reached his third All-England final in four years, regained the title he won with a far more spectacular performance in the 2002 final.

    'I feel even more excited than when I won it last time,' said Chen, who only woke up two hours before the final and had no time to practise. 'I feel it is a new era for me. I am mentally stronger than before.

    'I feel that we are equally strong players and I won because I am a little bit stronger mentally today. I felt that Lin Dan also wanted it badly but that I had the upper hand.'

    Despite that, there were critics who thought the contest lacked sparkle. Chinese players are reputed to play exhibition-style matches against each other on occasions, and Chen was asked whether it was difficult to play a friend.

    'Because we are good friends we are happy with each other whoever wins, but we don't wish each other success before we play,' he said. 'If we do that, we will not be very successful players!

    'Although we are good friends I think that deep down you always want yourself to win. Success comes with hard work and dedication.'

    As a mark of respect, Chen did not want to start the interview until Chinese head coach Li Yongbo had been allowed to come and sit down.

    Instead, Li made a mild protest by refusing to come for an interview, walking out of the room and saying that no one had asked him any questions during the short interview a few minutes earlier with the loser.


    China were already sure of winning three of the five titles, having supplied both finalists in the women's singles and doubles as well.

    Later China became certain of four titles when Cai Yun and Fu Haifeng won the men's doubles in straight games against Denmark's world champions Lars Paaske and Jonas Rasmussen. -- AFP

  8. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by rejang
    On a slightly different angle, I can't stop but laugh at how silly and egoistic Li Yongbo is- please read bold below (3rd and 4th last para). He must have thought that he is the real star of AE05!
    ---------------------------------------------------



    As a mark of respect, Chen did not want to start the interview until Chinese head coach Li Yongbo had been allowed to come and sit down.

    Instead, Li made a mild protest by refusing to come for an interview, walking out of the room and saying that no one had asked him any questions during the short interview a few minutes earlier with the loser.
    1. you see what 'press' can do - somebody wrote something out there and you tend to believe it.
    2. could it be translator problem? misunderstandings? culture differences?
    3. i don't think lyb is a loser like that.
    Last edited by 2love2live; 03-15-2005 at 09:22 PM.

  9. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2love2live
    1. you see what 'press' can do - somebody wrote something out there and you tend to believe it.
    2. could it be translator problem? misunderstandings? culture differences?
    3. i don't think lyb is a loser like that.
    you're right. the last thing we need in a miscommunication is someone to fan the fire and make matters worse. LYB does not project to be a whiner to me.
    Last edited by Anatolii; 03-15-2005 at 11:19 PM.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by rejang
    As a mark of respect, Chen did not want to start the interview until Chinese head coach Li Yongbo had been allowed to come and sit down.

    Instead, Li made a mild protest by refusing to come for an interview, walking out of the room and saying that no one had asked him any questions during the short interview a few minutes earlier with the loser.
    It is not suprising at all as LYB is well-known for such antics. It has been reported on several ocassions that he refused to answer questions from non-Chinese reporters at press conferences.

  11. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by 02011953
    /.../
    So here it is 1) He wasn't in top form 2) He under-estimates his opponents - does not respect them 3) His form deserted him suddendly after set 1. 4) He pannicked when 3) happened, 5) He did not play percentage when he needed it. 6) Chen was more determined to win.
    I watched the match. How he lost: 1) He was digging out drop shots and many did not get over; 2) forehand smashes from his left back corner to CH's left forecourt went wide. 3) He lost his anticipation and could not get to some drop shots, smashes or feints or was there but too late. 4) He rushed shots which missed or lofted short for Cheng to kill. 5) The worse the score, the more he pannicked and the worse he played. 6) Chen played his solid game: moving him back forth, side to side, high and low; LD rushed around mostly missing or mishitting. 7) He was shaking his head incredulously at Chen's ability to outplay him, and frowned in surprise at his errors. This is not what you expect a faked loser to do. 8) Lin had few serves as Chen scored 5-10 points in one service in both sets 2 and 3.Noticed how quick those sets were?
    There, do we have at least 30 points for C Hong to win legitimately without conspiracy theory or illness excuse? Y
    There, at last somebody provides a game analysis argumenting for why Chen Hong won. You have several good points there. I am not sure you explain the big loss margin, though.

    I really must make it clear that I am not in any way trying to take away the victory from Chen Hong. I have seen him in his previous heydays, and I know what a formidable player he is. I am NOT surprised that it was he who brought down Lin Dan. So again, the question is not "how could Chen Hong beat Lin Dan", but "how could Chen Hong beat Lin Dan by 23 points in the last two games?" If it hadn't been for that 1st game win, nobody would have thought twice about it.

    Chen Hong has been, well... erratic, during the last years, while Lin Dan has proved himself very reliable. As Cooler said, the wide point margin raises speculation. And we're allowed to speculate in this forum.

    In any case, it was a remarkable result, and a remarkable win for Chen Hong.

  12. #46
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    Mag says I did not explain the 15-5 15-2 score.
    Lin lost 15-5 and 15-2 if you just count 2-3 points for each of the kinds of errors I listed. I pointed out that LD got very few serves and whenever Chen got the serve he took several points. I just started to feel LD's repeated errors was like a computer locked the stroke into his head and each time he raised his arm the same stroke and error was played. It was like the 5 smashes Fu hit into Paaske's body in game 1 + 3 winners into the ground. When you are playing badly and are not a rallying type but rather want to hustle the opponent into abject despair (like Lin) then you keep trying your killer strokes but they are not working at all. In Set 3, LD was 1-10 in a few minutes. Suddenly Chen was at set or match point.

    LD blitzed WCH 15-1. Why did no one say it is a fix, injury or something wrong? So WCH can lose 15-1 but LD cannot lose15-5 or 15-2? Is it because on the other side is another top Chinese player or specifically it was ChenH who's lately been erratic? Well that is all speculation - it just happened.

    Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics? Of all people Camila, who had the best record of any non-Chinese after Susi, against the Chinese, and the O' is the last place she would want to be humiliated like that. But she was. In set 2 of the WS, Xie went up 8-1 before Zhang tried to stop the headlong rush. In the MD, Cai-Fu were 9-1 (?)up before the Danes stemmed the haemorage. Unlikely, but facts. So with LD's loss by a huge margin. Don't need mirrors or tricks. Just ChenH in and LD off form. Let's see if LD will ever reach 4 AE F's like ChenH. Y
    Last edited by 02011953; 03-16-2005 at 12:20 PM.

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    WoWw very well said heheh

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02011953
    Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics?
    I watched the 2000 Olympics WS final. Camilla was playing very well in the beginning but somehow GongZC returned all her shots back and frustrated Camilla, and ended up Camilla losing points by making mistakes. In the 2nd set, I think Camilla gave up because she was playing her best game but still felt no chance of beating GongZC. I didn't watch the AE MS final. Could it be the case of the third game.

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    LD is a very strong person mentally, with high confidence, but actually lacking in Skills and techniques. Lin is a quick nimble athlete.

    CH is a person with arguably technically the best strokes and footwork of any player around. CH is a fast, powerful athlete. He lacks self confidence, and perhaps some mental strength. (Check out this brilliant thread: http://www.badmintonforum.com/vb/sho...ong+confidence )


    They are basically completley different. But they had the same results in majors before this 1AE each. Lin has been around for about 3 years now, chen maybe a few more, but not that many.

    What I am trying to say is that lin is not unbeatable at all, and when he is pushed he can lose. Chen hong played a perfect game against him, retrieved his attacks, and stung him with counter attacks rather than his more usual all out attack. This made Lin dan lose his confidence, and without his confidence Lin is a very ordinary player (sounds harsh, but is true).

    Time is on his side, and if he can improve on his weaknesses like Chen has, then he can be great. But Confidence is temproary, once a few defeats fall it can all go. Chen hong has class, and this can give him confidence.

    Personally I hope chen hong gets what he wants (A WC/OG title) as I believe he has worked hard to improve his mind set and defence. If lin dan improves his skills, and realises he cannot be so confident all the time, and it takes hard work, then he will get what he deserves too.

    With regards to this AE final, he was beaten fair and square, as Chen hong took away his best weapon-confidence. and without that confidence he didn't know what to do.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02011953
    Mag says I did not explain the 15-5 15-2 score.
    Lin lost 15-5 and 15-2 if you just count 2-3 points for each of the kinds of errors I listed. I pointed out that LD got very few serves and whenever Chen got the serve he took several points. I just started to feel LD's repeated errors was like a computer locked the stroke into his head and each time he raised his arm the same stroke and error was played. It was like the 5 smashes Fu hit into Paaske's body in game 1 + 3 winners into the ground. When you are playing badly and are not a rallying type but rather want to hustle the opponent into abject despair (like Lin) then you keep trying your killer strokes but they are not working at all. In Set 3, LD was 1-10 in a few minutes. Suddenly Chen was at set or match point.

    LD blitzed WCH 15-1. Why did no one say it is a fix, injury or something wrong? So WCH can lose 15-1 but LD cannot lose15-5 or 15-2? Is it because on the other side is another top Chinese player or specifically it was ChenH who's lately been erratic? Well that is all speculation - it just happened.

    Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics? Of all people Camila, who had the best record of any non-Chinese after Susi, against the Chinese, and the O' is the last place she would want to be humiliated like that. But she was. In set 2 of the WS, Xie went up 8-1 before Zhang tried to stop the headlong rush. In the MD, Cai-Fu were 9-1 (?)up before the Danes stemmed the haemorage. Unlikely, but facts. So with LD's loss by a huge margin. Don't need mirrors or tricks. Just ChenH in and LD off form. Let's see if LD will ever reach 4 AE F's like ChenH. Y
    well said - may I ask how you got to watch the games live in China? Never saw them on TV? Thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by 02011953
    /.../ LD blitzed WCH 15-1. Why did no one say it is a fix, injury or something wrong? So WCH can lose 15-1 but LD cannot lose15-5 or 15-2? Is it because on the other side is another top Chinese player or specifically it was ChenH who's lately been erratic? Well that is all speculation - it just happened.

    Remember 11-0 for Camila from GongZC at the 2000 Olympics? Of all people Camila, who had the best record of any non-Chinese after Susi, against the Chinese, and the O' is the last place she would want to be humiliated like that. But she was. In set 2 of the WS, Xie went up 8-1 before Zhang tried to stop the headlong rush. In the MD, Cai-Fu were 9-1 (?)up before the Danes stemmed the haemorage. Unlikely, but facts. So with LD's loss by a huge margin. Don't need mirrors or tricks. Just ChenH in and LD off form. Let's see if LD will ever reach 4 AE F's like ChenH. Y
    Don't even try to bring Camilla into this. She has produced some of the strangest point distributions in the history of badminton, all due to her "special" mentality. You can't compare Lin Dan to Camilla psychologically.

    Neither is it fair to compare Lin Dan to WCH, as nobody raises an eyebrow anymore if WCH gets whopped by a qualification player. Sure, he still has it in him, but he seldom brings it out. Lin Dan, however, only lost 4 matches last year.

    And the fact that the match is between two Chinese players does have a lot to do with it, yes. It won't matter how much LYB says "we don't do that anymore" -- the suspicion that the players didn't try their best will always be there. This beast was created by LYB, thank you very much, now we see the consequences.

    Until this final, Lin Dan has not struck me as a particularly psychologically weak player. He has lost games big before (although never this big) and yet been able to come back and win. Well, I buy your (and James') match analysis, so perhaps it is just time to revise that opinion!

    Regarding Lin Dan's future, I am sure he has the capacity to reach four AE finals -- he's already been in two. However, he doesn't have too much time, as his taxing playing style will no doubt shorten his career...


    By the way, when was the last time we had an in-depth match analysis thread like this one? Thank you everybody for your contributions!

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