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Thread: Illegal Service

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    Default Illegal Service

    During a high school tournament, one of my doubles players got called for an illegal serve. The serve that he did was a front short serve (where the racquet is in front of your body) in which he would change the speed of the racquet going back to his body either fast or slow, then moving forward in a consistent motion for either a short serve or a pop-up serve to the back of the doubles line. For example, my player would present the shuttlecock or birdie, call the score, would move his racquet back to his body fast, pause for for a split second or not and would serve it short or vice-versa, he would move his racquet back slowly, pause for a split second or not and would then pop-serve to the back of the doubles line. My player did not stop when he started the forward motion towards the birdie or shuttlecock nor did he swing his racquet back and forth before he served (both of which is illegal). The purpose of the way he served was to catch his opponent off-guard. They (coaches from three different high schools in the same league) called it illegal with one of them calling it illegal because of "deception" and was not "consistent" of the way he would normally serve, both of which is not stated in our rule book which is also IBF approved. The IBF rule on a service which comes close to this is: 11.2 Once the players have taken their positions, the first forward movement of the server's racket is the start of the service. It clearly does not state on how fast or slow you move the racquet back to your body. When my player uses this technique, his opponent would then move and take one of his feet off the ground which is then ruled illegal because of this rule from IBF: 11.1.2 The server and receiver shall stand within diagonally opposite service courts without touching the boundary lines of these service courts; some part of both feet of the server and receiver must remain in contact with the surface of the court in a stationary position until the service is delivered Now, when my player would pause, for a second or less, once he would move his racquet back either fast or slow before moving forward to serve, would that be considered illegal because of this IBF rule: 11.1.1 Neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the serve.
    In my opinion, with regards to the IBF rules, it doesn't matter if you move the racquet back fast or slow, the serve does not start until the racquet moves forward towards the shuttlecock or birdie. If my player delayed his serve more than 3 to 5 seconds, his serve would be illegal under the IBF rule 11.1.1 which he did not do during the game. If anyone has input on this please feel free to share with me your opinion and if possible where you are in Badminton for example, Professional player, Coach, IBF representative, USA Badminton member, or other European or Asian league member. I would love to educate these coaches so that they may teach their players correctly under the IBF rules. Thank you for your time. Below is the link which I referenced:

    http://www.worldbadminton.com/ibf_laws.htm#11
    Last edited by mndtrcks; 04-12-2005 at 12:26 PM.

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    I'm just a regular player...
    I know (for having read a lot of threads here) that the serve shouldn't be made as a deceptive shot, and should be a continuous stroke. Flick serves are legal, but does not enter the category of deceptive serve.
    Also, your school rules cannot surpass the IBF rules.
    Hope this helps, but take it with a grain of salt...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    Also, your school rules cannot surpass the IBF rules.

    They can. It depends whether the tournament will be "Played in accordance with the International rules of badminton". If it isn't then they can play whatever rules they like, they will just have to write them!

    Serve motion can change the pace of movement, but once movement of racket towards shuttle in the service motion has begun, then all motion must be towards the shuttle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    I'm just a regular player...
    I know (for having read a lot of threads here) that the serve shouldn't be made as a deceptive shot, and should be a continuous stroke. Flick serves are legal, but does not enter the category of deceptive serve.
    Also, your school rules cannot surpass the IBF rules.
    Hope this helps, but take it with a grain of salt...
    technically, a service can be deceptive, as long as it doesn't break any of the rules.

    the rule says the first forward movement must be continuous:

    9.1.7 the movement of the server’s racket shall continue forwards from the start of the service (Law 9.4) until the service is delivered;

    so mndtrcks student did not violate the rule.

    it is usually best to memorize, and then print out a copy of the Laws of Badminton and bring it to tournaments in case there is any disputes. the Laws of Badminton is also a good reading material, or hold a discussion session with your students so they too can understand the rule. it will help them in future disputes on court.

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    When you are serving backhand, you cannot stop your racket, even for a fraction of a second, once you started your back swing. The back swing and foreward movement has to be one continuous stroke. The speed of the movement can change but you cannot stop. If you "stutter" that's illegal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AKFT
    When you are serving backhand, you cannot stop your racket, even for a fraction of a second, once you started your back swing. The back swing and foreward movement has to be one continuous stroke. The speed of the movement can change but you cannot stop. If you "stutter" that's illegal.
    So in your opinion, that slight pause whether it be a aplit second upwards to 2 to 3 seconds from swinging back to swinging forward to strike the shuttlecock or birdie for a serve constitute a fault under the IBF rule: 9.1.1 neither side shall cause undue delay to the delivery of the service once server and receiver have taken their respective positions;(http://www.intbadfed.org/Portal/desk....aspx?tabid=96). That is the only rule where opinions might differ since it is so general. I feel (in my opinion) a pause for that long does not "..cause undue delay..." but anything longer would rule the serve illegal.

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    Default might be another reason

    there is more rules to consider. once the players are ready you have to serve in a reasonnable time, thus if you're partner got in ready position with racquet in front and stopped all motion then both players are considered ready. so by moving his racquet back and holding again it could be considered as too long of a wait to make you're opponent go off balance so the umpire might consider this "deceptive". other situation is that you're partner might be moving the shuttle up (too hight) when stopping or when moving forward in a faster motion. maybe he's concentrating on his serve and he could be hidding (not intentionnaly) the shuttle from his opponents. but the best thing is to ask the umpire or if there was none ask for an umpire for you're game.

    Norm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Normand
    there is more rules to consider. once the players are ready you have to serve in a reasonnable time, thus if you're partner got in ready position with racquet in front and stopped all motion then both players are considered ready. so by moving his racquet back and holding again it could be considered as too long of a wait to make you're opponent go off balance so the umpire might consider this "deceptive". other situation is that you're partner might be moving the shuttle up (too hight) when stopping or when moving forward in a faster motion. maybe he's concentrating on his serve and he could be hidding (not intentionnaly) the shuttle from his opponents. but the best thing is to ask the umpire or if there was none ask for an umpire for you're game.

    Norm
    But if the umpire calls the serve illegal because it is "deceptive", there is no rule in the IBF to make a "deceptive" serve illegal. In fact the word "deceptive" is not anywhere in the IBF rule book. When my player served the shuttlecock or birdie, it is not hidden in any way because that would be illegal under IBF rule: 9.7 In doubles, the partners may take up any positions which do not unsight the opposing server or receiver. (http://www.intbadfed.org/Portal/desk....aspx?tabid=96) The shuttlecock or birdie was clearly present to his opponent. It was only called illegal because my player would change the speed of his racquet when (backhand serve) swinging back before he moves forward towards the shuttlecock or birdie for the start of his serve. That to me is not right because nowhere, in the IBF rule book does it state that you must have a "continous" swing back before swinging forward towards the birdie or shuttlecock for your serve. The IBF clearly states in rule:9.4 Once the players have taken their positions, the first forward movement of the server’s racket head shall be the start of the service. The serve does not start when you swing back but when you swing forward towards the shuttlecock or birdie therefore it is not illegal.

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    all i can say is, if someone falls for the same thing twice.. den ur a bit...

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    My interpretation is that in your partner's motion towards his body... The pausing should not be too long but more of a hesitation and quick movement.



    If you can't find anything wrong, just take the IBF rules to the coaches and tell them to find it and prove YOU wrong lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mndtrcks
    If anyone has input on this please feel free to share with me your opinion and if possible where you are in Badminton for example, Professional player, Coach, IBF representative, USA Badminton member, or other European or Asian league member.
    I am a coach; my qualification comes from the Badminton Association of England.

    There is no rule that states a service must not be deceptive. Indeed, in order to serve effectively at a high standard of play, it is essential that a player can serve with deception.

    The serve is defined as beginning with the first forward movement of the racket head, once the players are ready. Anything you do before this is not part of the serve. So if you use a backswing before hitting the serve, this backswing is not part of the serve and therefore cannot break any of the service rules. But take care that it is ONLY a backswing! If the racket jitters forwards, even slightly, then that becomes the start of the serve.

    Furthermore, there is no restriction on the speed of the forward movement - except that the service must not be unduly delayed. Be careful though! If you try to confuse the receiver by SUDDENLY slowing the forward movement, you may accidentally move the racket head backwards - another jitter! Once again, this jittering is not allowed, and it counts as ending the service. It doesn't matter that you failed to hit the shuttle; according to the rules, you've already served, and you lost the point.

    To recap:

    The first forward movement of the racket head towards the shuttle is the beginning of the service. This movement must be continuous until the shuttle is hit, but it can be slowed or speeded up. After the shuttle is hit, the service is over, and service laws no longer apply.

    Once both sides are ready, the server must not unduly delay the serve. He may, however, perform the serve slowly or quickly, provided that the overall time is not too long. There isn't a hard definition of "too long", but in practice it only happens if the server is deliberately wasting time.

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    Thanks for clearing these things up Gollum. I don't know why I had the notions that the serves shouldn't be deceptive, maybe I've read too much bad advice

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    Thanks for clearing these things up Gollum. I don't know why I had the notions that the serves shouldn't be deceptive, maybe I've read too much bad advice
    More likely that you've encountered some sore losers, who don't like it when they get deceived by players with a clever serve

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    To all Coaches. If you read this thread about illegal serves, please take it as a "grain of salt", read the IBF rule book, and to teach your players about the correct rules of a serve. I just try my best to follow and properly interpret the IBF rule book to help better my players and I feel you should do the same instead of clinging to your opinions without hard evidence to back-up you opinions stipulated in the IBF rule book. This is not about me being right and you are wrong, you have to remember it is about the students and players whom you are teaching and know that they will take some, if not many of your advice after they graduate and instill it in how they might live their lives. So let us teach them the right way so they can live their lives the right way. Thank you.
    Last edited by jamesd20; 04-13-2005 at 03:50 PM. Reason: Removing personal "attack"

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    Quote Originally Posted by mndtrcks
    To all MVAL (Mission Valley Athletic League) coaches. If you read this thread about illegal serves, please take it as a "grain of salt", read the IBF rule book, and to teach your players about the correct rules of a serve. I just try my best to follow and properly interpret the IBF rule book to help better my players and I feel you should do the same instead of clinging to your opinions without hard evidence to back-up you opinions stipulated in the IBF rule book. This is not about me being right and you are wrong, you have to remember it is about the students and players whom you are teaching and know that they will take some, if not many of your advice after they graduate and instill it in how they might live their lives. So let us teach them the right way so they can live their lives the right way. Thank you.
    Good call!!!

    Same situation as many comments like, "hey, I am a better player, so whatever I say is right, u have to listen..." "hmmm.... I play xxxx years already, i know everything..." "damn, i am an old guy, u think i don't know what I am talking about..."

    Ok, individual respect is one thing, hard fact rule is another.

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    Correct as it may be I have removed the named Person/institution, as it shouldn't be about individuals, but about clarity of the rule for everyone, and it could turn into personal insults, instead of peaceful reccomendations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jamesd20
    Correct as it may be I have removed the named Person/institution, as it shouldn't be about individuals, but about clarity of the rule for everyone, and it could turn into personal insults, instead of peaceful reccomendations.
    You missed a spot

    See Lazybuddy's quote.

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