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Thread: Tie Score Dilemma
04-14-2005, 10:07 AM #18
that what i mean, IMO it's quite weid to continue serving without knowing what going on, your girls should have say, hey come on chose 1 or 3. But that a sad thing, it's common that kids doesn't know the exact rules and get cheated by other.
one exemple, i was playing mixed and the other team made a double touch and returned to serve like nothing, so my partner said, what are you doing ??? i simply say, i thinked that you wasn't knowing the rule, what a cheater
04-14-2005, 12:39 PM #19
Originally Posted by Mag
I would like to illustrate again what you are not seeing and it is that there is nothing in the rulebook for the player to catches up and to tie the score to say anything and that makesthem naughty? If your talking about etiquette, they (my players) chose not say anything and WAITED long enough for them to get ready for the service, present the shuttlecock, CALL THE SCORE LOUD "POINT-14", to serve and for their opponents to ANSWER the serve. During any of those times they would had enough time to raise their hands to call "set". If you feel that is not "etiquette" and "sportmanslike" enough because there was no umpire, then maybe you should ask the IBF for another stipulation stating that the person who catches up to tie the score must offer their opponents a choice. I would love to hear the response you get back from it.
04-14-2005, 01:56 PM #20
Originally Posted by mndtrcks
Where I play, the one getting last to 14 ALWAYS ask to how much to set.
But in your case, maybe both have forgot. It is not a matter of waiting long enough for the other party to ask. It is common sense that play shouldn't continue until we know to how much that playoff is set. Assuming that the play should be set to 1 is wrong.
If you want my interpretation of the rule, here it is:
7.5 If the score becomes 14-all (10-all in women’s singles), the side which first scored 14 (10) shall choose either Law 7.5.1 or 7.5.2: 7.5.1 to continue the game to 15 (11) points, ie not to ‘set’ the game; or 7.5.2 to ‘set’ the game to 17 (13) points.
This rule 7.5 means that a DECISION has to be made on how much to set BEFORE continue playing, and this decision pertains to the one who got 14 first.
Last edited by Loopy; 04-14-2005 at 02:00 PM.
04-14-2005, 02:17 PM #21
IBF rules don't dictate all the details, that's why it cannot be used against or for benefit of this situation.
As Mag said, one would not continue the game before it's clear what the decision on the set, no one is a mind reader so no one should make any assumptions. Assumption is never good.
In my experience of playing badminton for almost 25 years, when there is no umpire, whoever is going to serve should make sure that the set has been decided and clear, I would not serve until the opponent makes up their mind - waiting is not enough. This is not an IBF rule, but just the informal rule that I've been using. Again, this is not an official rule, but just from my experience of playing badminton, off course different places/locations/countries may have different informal rules.
It was even more confusing before, because we used to set at 13-13 and 14-14.
04-14-2005, 02:29 PM #22
3rd set, down 13-14 ... your players got to 14-14 ... don't you think at this crucial point, you'd want to be ABSOLUTELY sure if 15 or 17 wins the game? There's a choice to be made at that point in the game, and barring officials, personal responsibility, etiquette takes precedent.
The ideal situation (both parties knowing) didn't happen. If you really want to follow IBF rules, the gist is: the first to 14 decides, right? They assumed 17, your girls assumed 15. They got to 14 first.
Both sides gambled, your girls lost. Get ready for the next tournament. I'll wager you won't garner much support for this case. No offense.
Last edited by wood_22_chuck; 04-14-2005 at 02:36 PM.
04-14-2005, 02:49 PM #23
in my little 6 years of playing i never have probleme with this, i mean the other team always knowed that they need to set the number of point. and i'm so happy to want the prolongation that i have no trouble to say it :P, it's not that big of a descision 1 or 3 lol, me i always take 3 except if i would have been to 14-14 by extreme luck versus a better opponent.
in your case there no place for a lawyer, both team did wrong, just to bad your lose period.
04-14-2005, 03:15 PM #24
Well i think mndtrks girls were being a little deceptive with the scoring, but thats if you hit a shot, that you know went out, but your opponent called it in. Thats their bad. If it were recreational, i would point it out. But who here in a tournament, honestly would stop and correct the other team? "Please, take this point away from me, i dont want it". It may not have been ettiqutte, but you do not point out your opponent's mistakes. Those other girls KNEW they had the option to set, because they brought it up afterwards.
Just imagine this. Youre in the finals of some tournament where first prize is $2000 US. Its game point and you just hit a shot which u knew went out, but your opponents are standing around looking confused because they didnt see it, so they dont know what to call it. 90% of the people here would keep quiet, and hope they call it in. The other 10% of the people here would be one of those jack@$$es who go "if you didnt see it, you have to call it in". Simply the rules say whoever gets to 14 first calls, it is not the responsibility of ur opponenets to remind you.
04-14-2005, 03:24 PM #25
Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
04-14-2005, 03:26 PM #26
Originally Posted by wood_22_chuck
Sportsmanship is when after the game is done, you would go and talk to the other players to teach the rules by saying something like, you know, you could have set the game to 17. They could have said either, "I knew that but wanted to finish to 15" or "oh, I didn't know you could do that." but not while educating your opponent during a game or tournament. What I told my girls about this was that the other mistakes they made during the game, if you did not make those mistakes, you would have never gotten in this predicament as well as lose the match and the game. A great lesson and experience learned. Thanks for all your opinions. This helps better me as a coach and player.
04-14-2005, 03:37 PM #27
i just want to chime in for my humble opinion.
by the Laws, a game in badminton is 15 points. it is only extended when there is a special circumstance (ie. 14-14) to extend, or set, to 17. if setting didn't happen, or agreed on, then the game naturally finishes at 15.
in other words, if both sides do happen to keep silence at 14-14. that means there is no set and the game finishes at at the natural end point of 15. if any player on court decides that they would like to extend to 17, they must speak out. you have the power to speak out, if you don't speak out, you are voluntarily giving up that power.
i also want to point out that, when one do speak out, the final choice of setting or not, however, still goes to the side who gets to 14 first.
technically this is what should happen.
whether one takes advantage of this and use as a tactic is proper ettiquette or not.. well...
04-14-2005, 03:46 PM #28
I think I see the point now.
It may be that I'm am uncomfortable with the "strategy" although professional players also utilize this method ... Lin Dan, Jen Eriksen for example.
04-14-2005, 07:05 PM #29
I will put in my 2 cents (or rather 3 cents Cdn)
I think it is good etiquette that regardless of whether you or your opponents got to 14 first, is to enquiry and verify that there is either no setting or setting.
By keeping quiet, you are hoping to pull a fast one similarily to calling a shot out when it's in (or vice versa). Just because the rules doesn't stipulate what needed to be done doesn't mean that it shouldn't be done.
In reply to Papa Smurf, I would say that the honest badminton players will call the shots as they are. I do and that's coz I do not want to win by cheating. If I am not sure, then I will keep quiet and if we can't verify then a let is played. That's the principle of good sportspersonship and I think some of our current top players are losing some of those principles.
04-14-2005, 10:54 PM #30
Rules are rules, everything else is opinions
In my opinion, the rules state that if tied you have a choice if you scored 14 first. If you do not say anything you have made a choice not to set. In my 25 years of playing and running IBF sanctioned events at a UC in the are, I would have to agree with the notion that it is the responsibility of the players to know the rule. Therefore, when I was tournament director and something like this happened I would ask the parties involved "Who got to 14 first ?" Then I would ask that team "Did you set?" If they said no, I would say then the game went to 15 and you lost, sorry. I wouldn't know how else to call it. The rule also states that a decision has to be made before the next serve is played. So once the serve is played you can't go back and set so you cant replay anything. Simply stated they didn't set, the next serve was played, so you play to 15. If you were a tournament director how could you rule any other way? If you tell them to go back you are now breaking the rule that states you have to make the decision before the next serve is played! That would be wrong!
04-15-2005, 03:15 AM #31
For the sake of argument, let's assume that the opponents were acting based on a questionable "strategy". The fact remains that if you had taught your girls proper court behaviour -- in this case that they must make absolutely sure whether their opponents are setting or not -- the opponents' "strategy" would not have been possible.
Unfortunately, there will always be opponents that are more prone than others to bend the rules a little. As a coach, part of your job is to prepare your players to prevent and counter such behaviour in others, and to stay focused when it happens. Sometimes a player is subjected to bad calls or "unfair" situations (such as this one), and it is your responsibility teach the players to move on, focus on the next point, next game, next match. Anything else is counter-productive.
04-15-2005, 12:19 PM #32
Everything else aside you DO have to ask because the option to set is not yours to begin with and you have to know what the other team decide so you know what you are playing up to!
The option on the other side is to play straight through or to set (3 points), they have to let you know one way or the other because it is them that decides, you have no say in it what so ever.
It is my opinion that your team should not have proceeded to serve until they were notified of either straight through or setting.
Nothing to do with etiquette or gamesmanship, just plain common sense
04-15-2005, 12:49 PM #33
If mndtricks team had lost the serve, and the other team won their serve giving them the 15-14, would this problem still have arisen?
04-15-2005, 12:53 PM #34
Mag and Dill:
If you were running a tournament how would you handle the dispute? The rule says it has to be done before the next point is played. That did not happen. A point was played. So have to rule on it. The rule book does not say you have to ask, period. If you say that and rule to replay from the point of set 14-14, you are going against the rules. If you say the needed to ask, again you are adding something that is not in the rule book. It may not be great sportsmanship, but it is not illegel. If rule in favor of the team that was at 14 first and say to go back and replay you are breaking one rule and adding to another, which you can't do. Therefore, by the rule, and not personal opinions on sportsmanship, you would have to side with the team that won 15-14. Then educate why that shouldn't happen ever again.
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