User Tag List

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast
Results 52 to 68 of 71
  1. #52
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    4,290
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badmonte
    I do not get your point. The rule says you have a choice, but that choice is to be made before the next point is served. If you do not choose to set than you play to 15, or next point wins.
    What I also do not understand is that everyone is giving mndtrcks opponents an unfair advantage. Think about it...the best thing would be not to say anything and play the next point, then if you break serve you can serve for the win at 15. If you dont break serve then you can protest that you did not get a chance to set and must so you can play to 17. Has anyone thaught that maybe it is mndtrcks opponents that were being less than honest. They clearly knew they could set, but they didnt. It was only after they lost did they change their minds. Maybe they didnt want to set beacuse they thought they could break serve, and then when they lost they changes their minds. Why would anyone want to be so anxious to reward that kind of unsportsmanlike behavior?
    I would say that the most unsportsmanlike behavior of this tournament is the organiser committing the biggest mistake of not appointing the most important court offical i.e. umpire and expect all parties to follow the Law of Badminton IBF

  2. #53
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hayward
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by leehsim
    I would say that the most unsportsmanlike behavior of this tournament is the organiser committing the biggest mistake of not appointing the most important court offical i.e. umpire and expect all parties to follow the Law of Badminton IBF
    My understanding is that this is a high school match, and the officials would be the coaches. I would say it is not realistic to have an official at each court in that situation. From the original post by mndtrcks it seems that his teams opponents knew the score, knew they could set, and did not set. Then lost the point and then asked to set.
    Again is a perfect world I would agree with you, but theirs perfect and theirs reality.
    In this situation it seems clear to me, that mndtrcks team should be declared the winner, because they did not break a rule and if you go back and replay you are allowing their opponents to change their minds after the fact and get away with it....and thats crazy!

  3. #54
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    4,290
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badmonte
    My understanding is that this is a high school match, and the officials would be the coaches. I would say it is not realistic to have an official at each court in that situation. From the original post by mndtrcks it seems that his teams opponents knew the score, knew they could set, and did not set. Then lost the point and then asked to set.
    Again is a perfect world I would agree with you, but theirs perfect and theirs reality.
    In this situation it seems clear to me, that mndtrcks team should be declared the winner, because they did not break a rule and if you go back and replay you are allowing their opponents to change their minds after the fact and get away with it....and thats crazy!
    I don't want to side with any party and conclude which side is the winner.
    Now my question is:
    Who is the " umpire' for the match, the player who call out the score, the coach?
    There must be someone who does the duty of keeping the score sheet or call out the score and try to act as 'umpire'
    If there is none, I still think that the organiser is unsportmanlike.

  4. #55
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hayward
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by leehsim
    I don't want to side with any party and conclude which side is the winner.
    Now my question is:
    Who is the " umpire' for the match, the player who call out the score, the coach?
    There must be someone who does the duty of keeping the score sheet or call out the score and try to act as 'umpire'
    If there is none, I still think that the organiser is unsportmanlike.
    In high school badminton in california, players keep their own score unless they ask for a score keeper or score keepers provided (other high school players) in section championships.

    I dont understand why so many people on this post don't want to choose a side. bottom line that is what mndtrcks originally asked, for our opinions on how we would decide based on the rules, not our thoughts on sportsmanship and the like.

    Again, for me it is easy, the only decision that I could make and not be in violation of the rule book is that mndtrcks girls won. In my opinion, it would be hard to justify any other conclusion without adding to or breaking an existing rule. As I have stated before in a perfect world it would never happen but it did and a point was played, so you can't go back. Also mndtrcks opponents knew the rule, they just wanted to evoke it after the fact. Everyone has said they didnt speak up, but they did after they lost! Too late. It may be a hard lesson to learn, but its one that needs to be taught.

  5. #56
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Pilipinas
    Posts
    119
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    long thread... nice read... it taught me a lot about this rule which i never really agonized over since with the people i play with, we usually almost always play to 17 in the case of a 14-14 score.

    I'd have to agree with papa smurf and badmonte on this one. Rules are rules and in this case of ambiguity, the rules would've sided with mndtrck's girls if i were to make a decision on it. It looks clear that their opponents were the sneaky ones who were hoping to break the serve and finish the game at 15 and then decided to try to get a technicality bail them out of their choice after they lost.

  6. #57
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Cannock, UK
    Posts
    2,908
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    The other problem with the solution you guys came up with, is making a team replay a point. No matter what sport it is, you will NEVER see a team have to replay an event.
    Replaying points is common in badminton. It is called a "Let".
    e.g. Service Court Errors.
    But if the game continues beyond the point that is in dispute, it is too late.


    The correct way to call the score would have been.
    "14 match point all"

  7. #58
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Cannock, UK
    Posts
    2,908
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It is the Umpire's job to call the scores.
    Laws - RTCO (Recommendations to Court Officials)
    3.3 During the match the umpire shall record and call the score

    everyone seems happy that the players should perform this function when there is no umpire

    part of the same law
    3.3.6 "Game Point" (or "match point", where applicable) should be called in each game and for each side on the first occasion that a side reaches 14 or 16 (10 or 12 in women's singles)
    these calls should always immediately follow the serving side's score and precede the receiving side's score.

    everyone seems happy that the players should perform this function when there is no umpire


    part of the same law
    3.3.7 when the scores are first level on game point/match point, ask the receiver "Are you setting?" ...

    Are we all happy that the players should perform this function when there is no umpire?

  8. #59
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    LuckyTown
    Posts
    777
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sorry Badmonte, I don't agree with you.
    Rule 7.5 states that the set is determined by mndtrks opponent. Continuing play without knowing how much to set violates this rules (even if in ancient times, it was defaulted to be set to 15 as kwun says, now the rules are different).
    Second, reading this thread, I didn't even knew what "Point 14" meant before someone explained it.
    Third, the girls getting to serve last said "Point 14", as if THEY were the one who decided to which point to set. But it is the opponent to decide FIRST, and not to be SUGGESTED forcefully to which point to set.
    Fourth, when you're in the heat of a match, and someone is getting ready to serve, of course, by reflex, you'll get ready to receive...
    I agree with the ruling made.

    On another matter, winning by all means necessary with low level tricks is unsportsman like.

  9. #60
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    bay area
    Posts
    22
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    Third, the girls getting to serve last said "Point 14", as if THEY were the one who decided to which point to set. But it is the opponent to decide FIRST, and not to be SUGGESTED forcefully to which point to set.
    Fourth, when you're in the heat of a match, and someone is getting ready to serve, of course, by reflex, you'll get ready to receive...
    I agree with the ruling made.

    On another matter, winning by all means necessary with low level tricks is unsportsman like.
    If you read the original post again, it says they tied the game.... Waited for the opponent, they didnt say anything...then held up the bird said..'point-14'. Then the opponents got ready to return the serve. To me that says that they're ok with the decision. Think of it as "would you like to set?" and "would you like to play to 15". "point-14" would refer to "would you like to play to 15". (Over in the westcoast, "point" is very commonly used to signify "matchpoint". When i was playing back in 1998, thats how we did it and nobody ever had a problem with it. So for this situation we should assume the other girls knew what point-14 meant.) Back to my point.....Both questions can be consider as leading the opponent. But ULTIMATELY it is the opponent's agreeing or disagreeing, that is the decision process itself. If you told me to shoot someone, and i did it, when i goto court i cannot say that i did it because you told me to. mndtrks girls didnt force them to play to 15. They presented an option, and the other girls took it. If anyone reading this entry still isnt persuaded.... Go out and punch your wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend/whatever... then tell them the reason why you did it, is because i told you to. See what happens then.

  10. #61
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hayward
    Posts
    9
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    Sorry Badmonte, I don't agree with you.
    Rule 7.5 states that the set is determined by mndtrks opponent. Continuing play without knowing how much to set violates this rules (even if in ancient times, it was defaulted to be set to 15 as kwun says, now the rules are different).
    Second, reading this thread, I didn't even knew what "Point 14" meant before someone explained it.
    Third, the girls getting to serve last said "Point 14", as if THEY were the one who decided to which point to set. But it is the opponent to decide FIRST, and not to be SUGGESTED forcefully to which point to set.
    Fourth, when you're in the heat of a match, and someone is getting ready to serve, of course, by reflex, you'll get ready to receive...
    I agree with the ruling made.

    On another matter, winning by all means necessary with low level tricks is unsportsman like.
    So you would rule to go back and replay from where? The rule says it has to be decided before the next point, because you can't go back. Once a point is played, its played.
    As far as "Point 14" with the holding up of the shuttle, I have played badmitnon on the west coast for over 20 years and have never heard of anyone not knowing what that meant.
    If someone told me "point 14" and I wanted to set, I would say SET!
    The opponents of mndtrks girls knew that they could set, because after they protested. I beleive they were being less than honest and trying to get a double benefit, of winning at 15 if they broke serve, and being able to play to 17 if they didn't.
    You and I weren't their so your implying that mndtrks girls were unsportsmanlike, when in fact it could be their opponents who were trying to take advantage of them,by playing both ends of the rule. Why is that ok to you?

    Again the fact is the played the point, so you can not go back.

  11. #62
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    489
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Let's not make this an endless discussion, I think we all have a point here, and the match could go either way. It's just an unfortunate for mndtrks girls to lose the match like this.

    For the future and for the love of this sport, if anyone holds a tournament with no umpire, let's make this kind of things very clear in advance, write the rules on paper if needed. This is a very good case and good discussion for everyone.

    mndtrks, thanks for sharing with everyone in the forum.

  12. #63
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    LuckyTown
    Posts
    777
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by badmonte
    So you would rule to go back and replay from where? The rule says it has to be decided before the next point, because you can't go back. Once a point is played, its played.
    As far as "Point 14" with the holding up of the shuttle, I have played badmitnon on the west coast for over 20 years and have never heard of anyone not knowing what that meant.
    If someone told me "point 14" and I wanted to set, I would say SET!
    The opponents of mndtrks girls knew that they could set, because after they protested. I beleive they were being less than honest and trying to get a double benefit, of winning at 15 if they broke serve, and being able to play to 17 if they didn't.
    You and I weren't their so your implying that mndtrks girls were unsportsmanlike, when in fact it could be their opponents who were trying to take advantage of them,by playing both ends of the rule. Why is that ok to you?

    Again the fact is the played the point, so you can not go back.
    lol...
    Let's say you and I are are playing a match. You get to 14 last and say "Match Point". Say what?! What is your right to decide that it is match point? First, it's not for you to take that decision, or to suggest that it is. If you ever said that, then the correct format would be "Match point. Do you agree yes or no?". And not "Match point" and let's play on, because I'd be ready to receive.
    And I mentionned the notion of unsportmanlike, but I haven't said who was. As unfair as the ruling was in that school, I still agree by that ruling, because it was the opponent's right. For all we know, we can't make assumptions that they wanted a double benefit.

    Papa Smurf, just to clarify some things. The girls waited, got ready to serve, said "Point 14" then immediately served. So how much time does that leave the opponent to agree it is match point when they said "Point 14"?

    Anyways, as Steve says, let's leave it like that, we both have our opinions on the matter. And I still suck in badminton

  13. #64
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    bay area
    Posts
    22
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    lol...
    Let's say you and I are are playing a match. You get to 14 last and say "Match Point". Say what?! What is your right to decide that it is match point? First, it's not for you to take that decision, or to suggest that it is. If you ever said that, then the correct format would be "Match point. Do you agree yes or no?". And not "Match point" and let's play on, because I'd be ready to receive.
    And I mentionned the notion of unsportmanlike, but I haven't said who was. As unfair as the ruling was in that school, I still agree by that ruling, because it was the opponent's right. For all we know, we can't make assumptions that they wanted a double benefit.

    Papa Smurf, just to clarify some things. The girls waited, got ready to serve, said "Point 14" then immediately served. So how much time does that leave the opponent to agree it is match point when they said "Point 14"?
    Dood if all you have is that.....saying point, instead of matchpoint...then you have no argument. Thats not even an issue here. As for how much time passed, i do not know i was not there, i'm just reading the original post. Just read post #1 by mndtrks. Either way, even if i forgot to call set, immediately after the the opponents tied the game. When i hear "Point"....alarms will be going off that 'hey i'm about to lose this game'. Lets take another interpretation from another section of the IBF rules. It says "if you are not ready when the opponent serves, but you attempt to return it, then you are deemed as ready." In otherwords, just because someone serves it, doesnt mean you have to return it, but if you do then that means you are ready.

  14. #65
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    bay area
    Posts
    22
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveStanley
    Let's not make this an endless discussion, I think we all have a point here, and the match could go either way. It's just an unfortunate for mndtrks girls to lose the match like this.

    For the future and for the love of this sport, if anyone holds a tournament with no umpire, let's make this kind of things very clear in advance, write the rules on paper if needed. This is a very good case and good discussion for everyone.

    mndtrks, thanks for sharing with everyone in the forum.
    well what else are we going to do? Its just a discussion board afterall. Its nothing personal. Not like i'm going to go from open gym to open gym hunting for people to beat down. We all smurfy here =)

  15. #66
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Cannock, UK
    Posts
    2,908
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    Let's say you and I are are playing a match. You get to 14 last and say "Match Point". Say what?! What is your right to decide that it is match point? First, it's not for you to take that decision, or to suggest that it is. If you ever said that, then the correct format would be "Match point. Do you agree yes or no?". And not "Match point" and let's play on, because I'd be ready to receive.
    only 5 posts before this I quoted the IBF standard for how to call the score...

  16. #67
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    LuckyTown
    Posts
    777
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf
    Dood if all you have is that.....saying point, instead of matchpoint...then you have no argument. Thats not even an issue here. As for how much time passed, i do not know i was not there, i'm just reading the original post. Just read post #1 by mndtrks. Either way, even if i forgot to call set, immediately after the the opponents tied the game. When i hear "Point"....alarms will be going off that 'hey i'm about to lose this game'. Lets take another interpretation from another section of the IBF rules. It says "if you are not ready when the opponent serves, but you attempt to return it, then you are deemed as ready." In otherwords, just because someone serves it, doesnt mean you have to return it, but if you do then that means you are ready.
    lolol.... You're running out of argument to prove that a lack of etiquette and sportsmanship is actually legit and a good thing. At least, if you were to win, do it the proper way.

  17. #68
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,981
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Good grief. What a lot of discussion over such a simple issue.

    In games that are not adjudicated, you must expect occasional confusion, and even occasional cheating. Live with it.

    You can learn to avoid confusion by taking responsibility. Both sides have a responsibility to avoid disputes by calling the score each point, and ensuring that the option to set is clearly taken or refused by the receiving side. Communication is important.

    Failing to accept this basic responsibility is childish. Then again, they were child players in this case (well, teenagers anyway)

    You also must learn to deal with cheating. There is very little you can do if your opponents refuse to acknowledge their violation of the rules. Common violations include illegal drive serves, which put the receivers at a disadvantage. You may choose politely to point out the violation, but you cannot be any more forceful. There is no umpire, so if you can't reach an agreement then you are stuck. Annoying, I know. But what can you do?

    I repeat: live with it. It's not that important.

Page 4 of 5 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Dilemma. Please Help me.
    By manduki in forum Badminton Rackets / Equipment
    Replies: 19
    : 09-29-2005, 07:00 PM
  2. doubles dilemma
    By heyphilip in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 9
    : 09-12-2005, 01:24 AM
  3. dilemma
    By keith_aquino in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 3
    : 04-24-2005, 10:26 PM
  4. Racket dilemma
    By seanng in forum Badminton Rackets / Equipment
    Replies: 7
    : 03-31-2005, 07:11 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •