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  1. #154
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    just a quick link to the million dollar baby story:
    http://www.insidewomensboxing.com/



    Christy Martin and Lucia Rijker

  2. #155
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    thanks Ricky for the Marketing 101.

    i see there are two different products we are trying to sell here:

    1) badminton for player
    2) badminton for spectators

    the analysis you put in for 1) is correct. we need more gyms and then comes promotion. this is kinda of what is happening here now in the SF Bay Area. lots of gym opening up, and what is needed to fill them up is the appropriate promotion.

    however, for 2) is a bit different. the product to be sold here is the badminton video footage. and as a product in its current form, it is not very sellable. i have mentioned this before, but does not hurt to go through it one more time here. while the matches themselves are very exciting, the production of the matches are lacking. and here are the reasons for being so:

    - camera angles: the current angle is very flat and does not bring out the 3D aspect of badminton
    - stats: very little information given to the viewers when it comes to comparison and performance of each player on court
    - commentation: at least for the English commentation, very flat, doesn't bring out excitement in the game, poor background knowledge, and also culturally biased commentation. many people rather have the commentation turned off
    - audio: very poor audio reproduction of the badminton match. this masked out the explosive "bang" of the shuttle and the speed of the players moving around the court.

    and i am sure there are more that can be improved. but these shortcomings makes badminton not as hot a product to be marketed to badminton spectators. and to adhere to Ricky's marketing 101 requirement, they do need to be fixed before any successful marketing can be done.

  3. #156
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    The basic marketing stuff - 4 P's, SWOT, 5 forces etc - can be applied to badminton as well. Hopefully Yonex, Wilson and other big brand Managers have read their Porter's and Kotler's . But what I'd like to add here is two smaller (?) but quite significant things, that quite often work against badminton: 1. cultural aspects and 2. attention to statistics. Let me clarify these two a bit.

    1. Cultural aspects
    - I've noticed that in western countries sports, that require maximum muscle power and often involve physical contact, are dominant. There are of course exceptions to the rule such as tennis and golf, but the biggest money seems to always go to the "tough guy sports".
    - Let's take USA as an example. I don't have statistics right here with me, but I would say that the biggest sports (metered with spectators & money involved) are basketball, american football, baseball, ice hockey, wrestling and car sports (Nascar?): all requiring huge amount of muscle power (in car sports engine plays the role of a muscle) and physical contact.
    - Another example could be UK. Again I don't have the statistics, but I'd say the biggest sports are soccer, rugby, track & field, basketball and probably boxing. Again all these sports demand plenty of muscle power, and only in track & field there's no physical contact.
    - Mental & tactical sports such as snooker and bowling have their own fans too, but still they lack the support of the big masses.
    - Badminton is considered as the "weak man" (=smart man ) sport: no (visible that is!) maximum strength required, no physical contact, mostly small guys have an edge over the big guys.

    2. Attention to statistics
    - In many western countries the "average Joe" wants to see & compare as many statistical figures as possible. Sometimes it feels like nothing else really matters (take e.g. Barry Bonds when he was chasing the homerun record in baseball).
    - Let's again take USA as an example. All biggest sports are crowded with details such as rbi's, hr's, batting avg., goals, assists, penalty minutes, yards, touchdowns, blocks, errors...
    - Same to UK: goals, shots on goal, offsides, minutes, seconds, meters, knockouts etc etc.
    - In badminton only points per player are calculated: no statistics on successful smashes, net kills, unforced errors etc.

    What do I mean with all this? Badminton cannot compete against all sports - it simply lacks some of the components that are needed to make the "average Joe" interested. And in the area's where it is competitive there's plenty of other competitive "smart guy" sports around. Therefore all the effort should be pointed on developing the game towards the most appropriate target group - ONLY then it could really stand a chance against sports like tennis or golf.

    Just my two cents - thank you for reading it through . Remember that what I've wrote only applies to western countries: I really don't know other areas well enough to be able to say anything about them.
    Last edited by J_M_V; 05-23-2005 at 03:40 PM.

  4. #157
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J_M_V
    The basic marketing stuff - 4 P's, SWOT, 5 forces etc - can be applied to badminton as well. Hopefully Yonex, Wilson and other big brand Managers have read their Porter's and Kotler's . But what I'd like to add here is two smaller (?) but quite significant things, that quite often work against badminton: 1. cultural aspects and 2. attention to statistics. Let me clarify these two a bit.

    1. Cultural aspects
    - I've noticed that in western countries sports, that require maximum muscle power and often involve physical contact, are dominant. There are of course exceptions to the rule such as tennis and golf, but the biggest money seems to always go to the "tough guy sports".
    - Let's take USA as an example. I don't have statistics right here with me, but I would say that the biggest sports (metered with spectators & money involved) are basketball, american football, baseball, ice hockey, wrestling and car sports (Nascar?): all requiring huge amount of muscle power (in car sports engine plays the role of a muscle) and physical contact.
    - Another example could be UK. Again I don't have the statistics, but I'd say the biggest sports are soccer, rugby, track & field, basketball and probably boxing. Again all these sports demand plenty of muscle power, and only in track & field there's no physical contact.
    - Mental & tactical sports such as snooker and bowling have their own fans too, but still they lack the support of the big masses.
    - Badminton is considered as the "weak man" (=smart man ) sport: no (visible that is!) maximum strength required, no physical contact, mostly small guys have an edge over the big guys.

    2. Attention to statistics
    - In many western countries the "average Joe" wants to see & compare as many statistical figures as possible. Sometimes it feels like nothing else really matters (take e.g. Barry Bonds when he was chasing the homerun record in baseball).
    - Let's again take USA as an example. All biggest sports are crowded with details such as rbi's, hr's, batting avg., goals, assists, penalty minutes, yards, touchdowns, blocks, errors...
    - Same to UK: goals, shots on goal, offsides, minutes, seconds, meters, knockouts etc etc.
    - In badminton only points per player are calculated: no statistics on successful smashes, net kills, unforced errors etc.

    What do I mean with all this? Badminton cannot compete against all sports - it simply lacks some of the components that are needed to make the "average Joe" interested. And in the area's where it is competitive there's plenty of other competitive "smart guy" sports around. Therefore all the effort should be pointed on developing the game towards the most appropriate target group - ONLY then it could really stand a chance against sports like tennis or golf.

    Just my two cents - thank you for reading it through . Remember that what I've wrote only applies to western countries: I really don't know other areas well enough to be able to say anything about them.
    i agree with some parts of your points, but i would also like to point out some parts that i think you might have overlooked.

    badminton do require quite a bit of muscle power. those jumpsmashes are damn hard and recent speed measurements from the Sudirman Cup re-confirms that.

    this has not been done so far partly due to the lack of tournaments that applies the technology to measure these speeds in real time. as well as lack of different cameras to capture the actual smash. if there is a replay of Fu Haifeng jumpsmashing everytime after he performs one, along side with it the speed measurement, add onto that the proper capture of the loud "bang" produced, it will not only make the muscle seekers happy, it will also disspell the mis-conception that badminton is a "weak" sport.

    and that comes back to my point, it is not because badminton is not fun to watch, but instead the presentation of the game is lacking.

  5. #158
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    [QUOTE=kwun]
    badminton do require quite a bit of muscle power. those jumpsmashes are damn hard and recent speed measurements from the Sudirman Cup re-confirms that.

    [QUOTE]

    I couldn't agree more (especially after 1 hour smash training last evening...). Unfortunately the big masses don't seem to see it that way. Hopefully this will change, but it won't happen quickly. That is why, in the beginning, badminton should be marketed towards correct target group.

  6. #159
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    Badminton does need to be totally repackaged and sell to the general public in a different way. Lets take a look at how badminton is being marketed at this time. Quite frankly, all they sell are badminton kits that are used outdoors / backyards so put it simply no wonder badminton's image is a back yard sport in USA.

    Walmart -- Coleman's badminton / volleyball sets + a bunch of badminton books.
    ( sets that can be used for both volleyball and badminton )


    http://www.walmart.com/catalog/searc...n&ics=20&ico=0


    Target -- Eddie Bauer Badminton Set



    http://www.target.com/gp/search.html...index%3Dtarget

    Kmart -- Wilson Badminton tour kit , Wilson titanium smash power ( $19), Franklin badminton Sets ..


    (I am impressed, seems K-mart has most advanced badminton equipment of all the major retailers.)


    http://www.kmart.com/catalog/search....&Ntt=badminton

    COSTCO ---- NOTHING on badminton. NO SURPRISE there

    BIG 5 Sporting Goods --- I know they got some badminton rackets locally,, but on their website,, badminton is not even listed as a sport but you can find Ping Pong, racketball, martial arts.. Maybe Yonex rep is not doing his job ? Big 5 is selling Yonex products but not listing badminton as a sport. Hmmm.

    http://www.big5sportinggoods.com/productinfo.htm


    Sports Chalet ---- Franklin Professional badminton system, Wilson badminton racket,


    http://www.sportchalet.com/category/...egoryId=714773

    My conclusion is given all these BADMINTON SETS / SYSTEMS being sold by the biggest retailers in the world to the general american public,, 99.99999 % of the american will never take badminton seriously since they are most likely to play or see this sport played in the back yard, park, beach and simply hardly inside a gym where badminton should be played. All this combined with no TV AIR time to cover the real sport of badminton... Once again, No wonder,,,, no wonder...

  7. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpalot
    My conclusion is given all these BADMINTON SETS / SYSTEMS being sold by the biggest retailers in the world to the general american public,, 99.99999 % of the american will never take badminton seriously since they are most likely to play or see this sport played in the back yard, park, beach and simply hardly inside a gym where badminton should be played. All this combined with no TV AIR time to cover the real sport of badminton... Once again, No wonder,,,, no wonder...
    Personally I do NOT think the backyard sets, and cheapo-rackets, nets etc hurts at all. Having played and tried it people are more likely to aknowledge the skill of professional players when watching (or even better getting to try out the "real" cometetive badminton). So given enough marketing, business-incentives etc I think having the backyard version could work as an advantage, not a dissadvantage.

    Maybe somthing like "beach-badminton" needs to be introduce to be a bridge from recreational play to competetive badminton? Glass walls to shield wind and outdoor play??

    Cheers,
    fingapowa

  8. #161
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    Perhaps badminton would do better if it's promoted similar to martial arts rather than other racquets sports? The game is so much more technical at higher competitive levels and requires lightning fast reflex. We just need more exposure in the mainstream media. There is a reason for optimism as the demographics of North America is changing. Immigrants tend to hold on to their values longer than assimulate into the "melting pot", bringing ideas and values into their new homeland. California has always been the start of many popular trends, I am sure badminton will follow the same pattern as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by fingerpower
    Personally I do NOT think the backyard sets, and cheapo-rackets, nets etc hurts at all. Having played and tried it people are more likely to aknowledge the skill of professional players when watching (or even better getting to try out the "real" cometetive badminton). So given enough marketing, business-incentives etc I think having the backyard version could work as an advantage, not a dissadvantage.

    Maybe somthing like "beach-badminton" needs to be introduce to be a bridge from recreational play to competetive badminton? Glass walls to shield wind and outdoor play??

    Cheers,
    fingapowa

    Perhaps you dont know this but in USA, badminton is known as the "back yard sport" and its not known as a Jet Li style fast and furious sport, but a slow sunday afternoon hit around in the park "sport". USA is unlike the asian countries nor european countries where there is the real sport of badminton being marketed to the masses. Unfortunately at this time the backyard version of this wonderful sport is what most poeple see / hear / play in USA. I am merely pointing out the facts. These big companies have professional buyers and would only purchase and sell things in their stores based on demand, and for now badminton in the american market is sold and bought as a back yard sport.

    badminton is not an outdoor sport... Maybe it's ok to sell these picnic badminton sets, and maybe it helps people to appreciate the pro's later. But given the playing condition and styles of play in the back yards, the image of badminton will never achieve any kind of improvement. This is also true in the fact that badminton has not become any more popular among the american people in the last 30 years or more in USA.
    Last edited by Jumpalot; 05-24-2005 at 02:35 PM.

  10. #163
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    Default Badminton needs a good endorser

    I used to play tennis and I am seeing how tennis had its ups and downs. Now I play badminton and do agree that is indeed more difficult than tennis (more straining at that!).

    What badminton needs is a champion who can be a very good endorsers of product! Tennis was in its low when Pete Sampras was the champion. He was just not a good endorser. Look at tennis right now. They are on an upswing! Stars like Federer, Nadal, Sharapova and Roddick are very good endorsers.

    Once badminton has find its star, then the rest would follow. I could not forget a comment by Ms. Emms, she said, "I work as hard as Sharapova and we have the same ranking but see how much she is getting."
    Last edited by WynnB; 05-24-2005 at 07:09 PM. Reason: Typing errors

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    Default We need endorsers

    Badminton requires very good product endorsers. Tennis was in its low when Pete Sampras was the Champion. He was not a very good endorser. Look at where tennis is nowdays. Federer, Sharapova, Nadal, Roddick are very good endorsers! People are buying the racquets and outfits that they use. When people buy, sponsors do get excited!

    So for badminton champions create dramas! Look for rivalries, humanize the champions, write articles on them. This would definitely whet up peoples appetite and thus increase followers... and in the end make badminton very marketable.

    Ms. Emms sums it up when she said, "I train and work as hard as Sharapova. We have the same world ranking but look at how much she is getting.".

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    This goes back to my point of view. USA needs a badminton champ to lift the sport. People MIGHT (I stress on MIGHT, not 100% guaranteed) become more interested in this sport because of National Pride. A badminton champion from US will tell the nation that badminton is some serious game recognised by the world and not a back yard game played by ladies on sunday afternoon.

    This precedes everything - money, media, sponsors, management principles (4P's), etc... to make badminton a popular and successful sport.

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    i know this might sound really stupid, and doesn't have a lot to do with marketing, well actually quite a fair bit. but here's my idea.


    seeing that in North America, children in their elementary and even junior high years will have mandatory phys ed classes where almost every sport played will be covered in the class. if yonex can some how make some type of video compilation of tutorials and show some skills of the pros in the video. maybe they can provide these videos to schools in NA and hope that kids might see what competitive badminton is all about and get intrigued or hooked into the sport. with the way some school teachers let students just play around, and tap it like old ladies on a sunday afternoon it promotes to some of the athletic kids, that "hey, this sport sucks. look at everyone tap it like girls back and forth with big lobs." because this is what i felt, luckily i knew that badminton was a great sport

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    Quote Originally Posted by cheung31
    i know this might sound really stupid, and doesn't have a lot to do with marketing, well actually quite a fair bit. but here's my idea.


    seeing that in North America, children in their elementary and even junior high years will have mandatory phys ed classes where almost every sport played will be covered in the class. if yonex can some how make some type of video compilation of tutorials and show some skills of the pros in the video. maybe they can provide these videos to schools in NA and hope that kids might see what competitive badminton is all about and get intrigued or hooked into the sport. with the way some school teachers let students just play around, and tap it like old ladies on a sunday afternoon it promotes to some of the athletic kids, that "hey, this sport sucks. look at everyone tap it like girls back and forth with big lobs." because this is what i felt, luckily i knew that badminton was a great sport
    Not a bad idea, but i'm worried about that even Yonex makes thousands of these videos and distribute them to the schools, and pay the teachers to show them at PE classes, the teachers won't show the video at all, and even if they show the video, no one wants to watch.

    Educating the public about the sport is important, but "arousing" the interest of the public is the stepping stone.

  15. #168
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by winstonchan
    Not a bad idea, but i'm worried about that even Yonex makes thousands of these videos and distribute them to the schools, and pay the teachers to show them at PE classes, the teachers won't show the video at all, and even if they show the video, no one wants to watch.

    Educating the public about the sport is important, but "arousing" the interest of the public is the stepping stone.
    i think this is a good idea. especially since it is quite cheap. and frankly, i think it doesn't have to be Yonex, it can be us who creates this videos.

    and i think PE teachers might be interested. after all, every now and then, we have students coming here to BC or sending me email asking various things about badminton in order to complete their PE assignment. perhaps this can be of a "discovery" type of video. however, the video needs to be done well and professionally. and not just some kid with a video editor. otherwise it may have a negative effect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    i think this is a good idea. especially since it is quite cheap. and frankly, i think it doesn't have to be Yonex, it can be us who creates this videos.

    and i think PE teachers might be interested. after all, every now and then, we have students coming here to BC or sending me email asking various things about badminton in order to complete their PE assignment. perhaps this can be of a "discovery" type of video. however, the video needs to be done well and professionally. and not just some kid with a video editor. otherwise it may have a negative effect.
    Agree. A good start in passing the correct message to the public who knows very little about Badminton.

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    ...hmm...here's my suggestion...sorry if it's been said already, but i haven't had time to read all the posts...anyway...here it goes...
    ...basically everyone here knows how badminton is perceived by the public in North America as a "wussy backyard sport". We've also seen those cheap badminton/volleyball sets that they sell in places like walmart and stuff. another thing is, most of us badminton players are quite opposite from the current basketball player attitude such as being really repulsive and "do whatever you want" kind. we don't go around and act like we don't care about anything. most of us are the kind that probably care bout our grades and stuff...well...us badminton students anyways. but i was thinking, since summer vacation is coming up and there are going to be so many people outdoors, why don't some of us get together, pitch in, and buy one of those cheap badminton sets. after, go to the beach or park or wherever people are on a busy day, set up, use your own racquets and birds (maybe not the best you've got, but something that is pretty "usable"), and play your butts off.

    ...doing this isn't really to show off, but to show people what badminton's really like...some macho guys from the beach will probably walk by and laugh at you just for setting up a cheap badminton net and playing. but after you get warmed up, show them what its really like. if you've got enough time, maybe even draw lines out and start a game. soon enough, the sounds from smashes and clears will draw a crowd and spectators as people walk by, and this'll hopefully convince people that badminton isn't what they thought it was, and try it out. actually...maybe if you're nice enough, let people try out the game for themselves for a few rallies...with so many of us throughout canada and the us, there's probably enough of us to show a lot of people how "not backyard" badminton really is... ...who knows?...maybe we don't really need Yonex that much...yet.
    Last edited by Super~ME!; 05-25-2005 at 12:57 AM.

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