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  1. #290
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow Yao Ming is earning much more than Lin Dan?

    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post

    Even China, probably the only country whose players can command higher income from individual sponsoring, will not allow their national stars to be independent.

    .
    Hope that China Badminton Association can follow their Basketball Association.
    I would guess that Yao Ming is earning much more than Lin Dan.
    .

  2. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Indonesia has been very strong in badminton for a long time. But it was somewhat weakened by the Asian financial crisis a decade ago. We now have another even worse financial crisis which I am afraid will be detrimental to Indonesia. I hope I am wrong but I have an uneasy feeling that the independents and the PBSI in Indonesia are fighting for a dwindling pool of reduced funds.
    I think I personally believe that the opening up of badminton sponsorships (thus ending the monopoly by Yonex) will boost Indonesia's future in badminton and not detrimental to Indonesia. Indonesia will be stuck in the mud if it chooses to still stick to Yonex and their "unreasonable" rules.

    Dwindling pool of fun In contrast, we can see that the pool of funds is now being widened (and not reduced BTW) with the inclusion of Amway and perhaps Pertamina as possible sponsors of the National Team.

    And some players like Alvent Yulianto/Hendra A. Gunawan chose to be independent as they have also managed to secure sponsorships (which I believe is not from Yonex) that allow them to compete internationally and hopefully pave ways for their future as coaches.

    It's an open market and Yonex is now beginning to lose out as they have lost their monopoly of the national associations (with 2 gone already) their rivals (Li Ning and Victor).

  3. #292
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    U, I'm yet to see a sport in which the players' lot has improved because they remained hogtied to a national association. Look at (field) hockey - that's a sport in which national associations run by fatcats have put paid to any hope of progress.

    Conversely, I'm yet to see a sport in which the players' lot hasn't improved because they turned 'professional' and went about their own careers with an international body overseeing just the calendar, the rules and the rankings. Look at golf, tennis, (the real) football, basketball, chess, and what have you.

    Sure, the ATP and the NBA are drowning in TV money.
    But do these bodies handle the players' careers?
    They don't.

    They manage the game and not the players' incomes.
    And that's how it should be for badminton too.

    And who would argue that the ATP and the NBA were born into money?
    It's individual players that made the associations what they are today.

    A few years down the line, we could see that happen in badminton too.
    Nah, change that 'we could' to 'we will'

  4. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Badminton is very different from say tennis or basketball. The ATP and NBA have a huge locked-in revenue stream from television. These revenues are so large that they can afford to pay top prize money. Badminton as we know it today gets money from mainly Yonex, and most of it goes to the national associations.
    Wait wait... Yonex is not a non-profit organization! Yonex got most of their money from selling badminton equipment, attire etc. to badmiton fans and players ...and profiting from them! Yonex did not do all those sponsorships out of pity or love for the players... Badminton as we know it today gets money from... players, fans, TV viewers, ticket-buyers, etc.!!!! NOT from Yonex!

    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    I think I personally believe that the opening up of badminton sponsorships (thus ending the monopoly by Yonex) will boost Indonesia's future in badminton and not detrimental to Indonesia. Indonesia will be stuck in the mud if it chooses to still stick to Yonex and their "unreasonable" rules.

    Dwindling pool of fun In contrast, we can see that the pool of funds is now being widened (and not reduced BTW) with the inclusion of Amway and perhaps Pertamina as possible sponsors of the National Team.

    And some players like Alvent Yulianto/Hendra A. Gunawan chose to be independent as they have also managed to secure sponsorships (which I believe is not from Yonex) that allow them to compete internationally and hopefully pave ways for their future as coaches.

    It's an open market and Yonex is now beginning to lose out as they have lost their monopoly of the national associations (with 2 gone already) their rivals (Li Ning and Victor).
    Yes, in the past Yonex arranged with PBSI that INA's non-National Team players who are ranked 1-30 in the BWF to always wear Yonex. Even though Yonex did not pay a single cent to these non-National team players. The incompetent PBSI management in the past just signed away... thus enabling Yonex to impose a virtual sponsorship monopoly in our country... It doesn't make sense for a brand like Wilson, Carlton, Head, Dunlop, etc. to sponsor a player at that time because... when they reach top 30 in the world, they automatically are forced to use Yonex items...

    Alvent-Hendra gets some sizeable money outside the National team. Flandy-Vita will too... Candra with whomever his partner shall be too... Taufik too... Alamsyah, Andreas Adityawarman, Bandar Sigit, Budi Santoso, Ahmad Rivai, Fauzi Adnan, Anggun, Endang, Rani, etc. will also get sponsorships from various brands... thus... ENLARGING the POOL OF FUNDS...

    Even until today the BIG BIG drawback of the 'collective contract' system is: the division of money for the National Team players. And this 'collective contract' actually LIMITS the pool of funds for a Natioal Team... For example: if the total Yonex contract is US$100,000... and the National team has 1 MS, 1 WS, 1 pair of MD, 1 pair of WD, 1 pair of XD...

    Here's a typical way of dividing it... by ranking or by reputation!
    1 MS excellently ranked ....$50,000
    1 WS medium ranked .......$10,000
    1 MD highly ranked ..........$25,000
    1 WD terribly ranked .........$5,000
    1 XD medium ranked ........$10,000
    Total $100,000

    Now... what if all 5 players/pairs in 5 categories are excellently ranked???
    1 MS excellenty ranked ...$20,000
    1 WS excellently ranked ..$20,000
    1 MD excellently ranked ..$20,000
    1 WD excellently ranked ..$20,000
    1 XD excellently ranked ...$20,000
    The total is still $100,000

    Communism!!! Everyone equal [sounds fair], but in a lower level of prosperity for the excellent ones! It is obvious the Yonex 'collective contract' system limits the ability of INA's National Team's management to reward the excellent players they have...

    So... it is better to be mediocre but stay in the INA National Team for a long time... This is exactly what happened in INA in the past few years... Terrible!

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldhand View Post
    U, I'm yet to see a sport in which the players' lot has improved because they remained hogtied to a national association. Look at (field) hockey - that's a sport in which national associations run by fatcats have put paid to any hope of progress.

    Conversely, I'm yet to see a sport in which the players' lot hasn't improved because they turned 'professional' and went about their own careers with an international body overseeing just the calendar, the rules and the rankings. Look at golf, tennis, (the real) football, basketball, chess, and what have you.

    Sure, the ATP and the NBA are drowning in TV money.
    But do these bodies handle the players' careers?
    They don't.

    They manage the game and not the players' incomes.
    And that's how it should be for badminton too.

    And who would argue that the ATP and the NBA were born into money?
    It's individual players that made the associations what they are today.

    A few years down the line, we could see that happen in badminton too.
    Nah, change that 'we could' to 'we will'
    I mainly agree with what you wrote here, Oldhand....

    I think with Indonesia embarking on the path of individual sponsorships sometime next year... following the footsteps of Denmark, England, France, Hong Kong, etc. .....China, Korea, and Malaysia might want to reconsider their stance on using the 'collective contract' method...

  5. #294
    Moderator Oldhand's Avatar
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    Excellent illustration, Krisna!

    Your point on long-term mediocrity paying better than short-term excellence is quite disturbing. It highlights how commercial interests are corrupting the sport from within!

  6. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Hope that China Badminton Association can follow their Basketball Association.
    I would guess that Yao Ming is earning much more than Lin Dan.
    .
    CB(asketball)A??? They are even plagued with more problems as far as I know One club hired an ex-NBA player (who were in the same team as Yao Ming), only to learn that he did not return to China after the CNY holiday was over and that player's contract had to be terminated.

    Yao Ming is hired by the Houston Rockets, which is a franchise (again, the concept of money-making organization) and a team of the NBA.

  7. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc View Post
    .
    Hope that China Badminton Association can follow their Basketball Association.
    I would guess that Yao Ming is earning much more than Lin Dan.
    .
    Much more than you can imagine. There was a thread on the top earners in China (encompassing all areas, not sports alone). Yao Ming was one of the top earners. Lin Dan was about 19th or so. Have to find this thread to for the exact $$

  8. #297
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    Here is the thread. Go to post #10.
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...light=yao+ming

  9. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    Badminton is very different from say tennis or basketball. The ATP and NBA have a huge locked-in revenue stream from television. These revenues are so large that they can afford to pay top prize money. Badminton as we know it today gets money from mainly Yonex, and most of it goes to the national associations. Even then this money is peanuts. We now have badminton independents that want to take a bite of the cherry of this peanuts pool of money.
    While no doubting Yonex's contribution to badminton, it should be noted that the sport WILL GROW EVEN BIGGER if other companies are allowed to chip in as well. We did not have such a luxury in Indonesia (as Krisna has discussed thoroughly) due to the system of collective contracts imposed by Yonex on PBSI.

    The fact that the "peanut" sum of money given by Yonex already allowed INA to win a Gold Medal in every Olympics since 1992 makes you wonder the impact that private sponsorships will have on the sport itself! Both the sponsors and players will benefit because larger pool of money will be circulated and consumers too benefit because they are exposed to more products (not only the great YY ).

    I strongly agree with Krisna that individual sponsorship of players will have to start in INA, starting from the independent and perhaps club players. This will ensure that they stay committed to the sport and still contribute to the greater good of INA's badminton and the future as well.

    We have seen that local companies like Astec, Tetra Pak, Alfamart, Gudang Garam, Jawa Pos, Djarum, and now Amway and Pertamina have committed to sponsoring the domestic badminton circuits (including the two annual international tournaments: Djarum Indonesia SS and GGJP Indonesia Int Challenge). The Walikota Tarakan Open which was just concluded last week had a prize money of about US$18k -- more than the standard of an Int Challenge tourney. Hau-Ge also mentioned that Pertamina is even willing to sponsor another GP Gold tourney in Indonesia, starting next year Such is the level of enthusiasm by our local companies.

    This trend will continue and with more prize money being offered domestically, club (and non-Pelatnas) players will be more motivated to give their best in trainings and tourneys.

    I can't see any reason why INA badminton will not benefit in the long-run, with the emergence of more private sponsors

  10. #299
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    The only driving force that counts is television revenue, not sponsors. Television revenue is in turned driven by TV viewers who are interested in watching the game. Sponsors in major sports that have huge TV revenue stream outbid each other to broadcast the games. Badminton is not there yet, far from it.
    In today's badminton, revenue from television has not jumped by leaps and bounds. In fact TV revenue in badminton pales in comparison with the money sponsors like Yonex and governments like Malaysia put in. Until and unless the TV revenue stream becomes really big, independents and national associations in badminton will have to fight for a piece of a "zero-sum-game" pie.

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    Again, are we talking about the "same piece of pie" from Yonex alone because clearly, they are not the only company who has the money and ability to sponsor badminton associations and tournaments????

    Well, at least in INA, we are fortunate that right now, there's some proof that the pie is not as limited as what you mention No doubt, TV money will be an important source of revenue for any sport! But before we get to the level of million-dollar TV money, let's get down to the basics and fix the system that's so flawed right now with the collective contracts from Yonex

    I believe that INA badminton is on the right track and we are managing the situation better and better each day. Under the leadership of the new PBSI management and their no-nonsense attitude, as well as the committment and enthusiasm shown by fans and local sponsors in INA, it will be foolish to assume that INA badminton WILL NEED TO RELY ONLY ON YONEX to thrive in the future

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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    The only driving force that counts is television revenue, not sponsors. Television revenue is in turned driven by TV viewers who are interested in watching the game. Sponsors in major sports that have huge TV revenue stream outbid each other to broadcast the games. Badminton is not there yet, far from it.
    In today's badminton, revenue from television has not jumped by leaps and bounds. In fact TV revenue in badminton pales in comparison with the money sponsors like Yonex and governments like Malaysia put in. Until and unless the TV revenue stream becomes really big, independents and national associations in badminton will have to fight for a piece of a "zero-sum-game" pie.
    taneepak, you've to understand that your logic, which might be valid in a country like USA, isn't exactly applicable to many parts of the world (INA included).

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    Quote Originally Posted by badadum View Post
    taneepak, you've to understand that your logic, which might be valid in a country like USA, isn't exactly applicable to many parts of the world (INA included).
    Just to give an example:
    INA's DBL (Deteksi Basketball League), which is a recently launched basketball league for high-school students drew record crowds, esp in recent years and attracted sponsors like Honda and even NBA sent one player to grace the opening ceremony of the flagship DBL Arena in Surabaya last year.

    Lo and behold...with the growing popularity of DBL, there comes the TV-money from Globaltv.

    http://www.deteksibasketball.com/

    So, nothing is impossible in INA

    Imagine if our local badminton circuit can be as lively as this high-school basketball competition Sponsors will be salivating to put their bids on players/clubs.

    Current Sponsors of DBL:
    Honda (main sponsor)
    Relaxa (DBL official candy)
    BNI (DBL official bank)
    League (DBL official sportwear)
    Prima (DBL official drink)
    Proteam (DBL official ball)
    GlobalTV (DBL national TV partner)

    Very impressive I should say....
    Last edited by badMania; 02-10-2009 at 11:00 AM.

  14. #303
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Arrow For every $1m earned by Lin Dan, $32.33m is earned by Yao Ming

    Quote Originally Posted by madbad View Post

    Here is the thread. Go to post #10.
    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...light=yao+ming

    .
    madbad ... Thank you for the link.

    That's unbelievable, for every $1m earned by Lin Dan, $32.33m is earned by Yao Ming.
    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by badMania View Post
    Just to give an example:
    INA's DBL (Deteksi Basketball League), which is a recently launched basketball league for high-school students drew record crowds, esp in recent years and attracted sponsors like Honda and even NBA sent one player to grace the opening ceremony of the flagship DBL Arena in Surabaya last year.

    Lo and behold...with the growing popularity of DBL, there comes the TV-money from Globaltv.

    http://www.deteksibasketball.com/

    So, nothing is impossible in INA

    Imagine if our local badminton circuit can be as lively as this high-school basketball competition Sponsors will be salivating to put their bids on players/clubs.

    Current Sponsors of DBL:
    Honda (main sponsor)
    Relaxa (DBL official candy)
    BNI (DBL official bank)
    League (DBL official sportwear)
    Prima (DBL official drink)
    Proteam (DBL official ball)
    GlobalTV (DBL national TV partner)

    Very impressive I should say....
    Agreed, and it counters what the previous post which contend most of everything is driven by TV viewers/revenue only. Badminton is one of the most popular sport in INA, so sponsorships will come regardless of TV viewers or not. The problem has been execution, not lack of sponsorships (at least internally).

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    Let us look at this from the following perspective. The mother of all in sports popularity is mass media revenue, mainly of the visual type, i.e. TV. It is this "mother" that sponsors come onto the scene for a variety of reasons, like selling their name or goods or services. The ultimate size of all the total sponsors are determined by the size of the cash-cow inflow of TV revenue. When this has not increased having more sponsors will not increase the total revenue stream, only splitting it.
    Back to the players who go independent. Independent players like the Danish and Hong Kong players are not fully independent in the way that Taufik is becoming one. Yes, they have separate and individual sponsorships but are still part of the national squad and enjoy the benefits and training resources of the national team. Taufik and other Indonesian independents are striking out on a different route-completely independent without having the vast training resources of the PBSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak View Post
    The only driving force that counts is television revenue, not sponsors. Television revenue is in turned driven by TV viewers who are interested in watching the game. Sponsors in major sports that have huge TV revenue stream outbid each other to broadcast the games. Badminton is not there yet, far from it.
    In today's badminton, revenue from television has not jumped by leaps and bounds. In fact TV revenue in badminton pales in comparison with the money sponsors like Yonex and governments like Malaysia put in. Until and unless the TV revenue stream becomes really big, independents and national associations in badminton will have to fight for a piece of a "zero-sum-game" pie.
    For me it is quite obvious that one of the reasons for the low TV ratings is because the near-monopoly endorser (Yonex) is terrible at promoting their brand on TV... How many Yonex TV ads have we seen worldwide in the past 10 years...? Compare that with Nike, Adidas, etc.

    Nike and Adidas ads for basketball help improve basketball overall! Makes it cool!
    Nike and Adidas ads for soccer help improve soccer (football) overall! Makes soccer cool!
    Nike and Adidas ads for tennis help improve tennis overall! Makes tennis cool!
    ...thus, we get higher TV ratings!

    The competition between several strong brands make the sport [they focus on] even more noticeable! Thus... the pie will be bigger! This is what badminton needs! Not a stagnant piece of pie.

    When Victor Badminton Equipment, Li Ning, Wilson, Head, Dunlop endorse more and more individual players, they will make sure the audience see them on TV in athlete specific ads [like Nike with Jordan, Adidas with Beckham, etc.]... THIS will make badminton cool! Yonex... so far are just too content in endorsing so many National Associations, they don't really bother endorsing the individual athletes within it with specific ads...

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