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  1. #69
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    General Foo, I believe i replied to one of your post before..If not, that's fine also..

    Anyway, the reason why I think "everyone" is caught up in mentioning "average american person" or why you felt America is being mentioned as having "the most potential to invest in badminton" is because most people in the world(whether from Europe or Asia) will realize and admit that U.S. is "arguably the main driving force in this world". Especially if one is looking from the "commercialization power" of the U.S...That's what badminton need..Think about it, what other country put up more "commercialization" other than the U.S.??..With that realization, this is basically the argument, what other country other than the U.S. is capable of promoting badminton "big time"...
    Like Susy Susanti said earlier in one of her interview, she said something in a line like "if U.S. can bring a game like basketball or baseball to the rest of the world, it means it can do the same to badminton. If the U.S. can jumpstart a sport, the rest of the world will follow"...Sorry, i don't recall the link to the post, perhaps Kwun or others can help in giving that link??...

    So, that's why in a "sense", IMO, yes badminton need America to make itself even more popular..
    in a way, that is true. to support that point, i have made the observation that, if one turns on your TV in China or Hongkong, or even in Japan, (only countries i have been to and watched TV recently), and then watch the sports news. there are usually more coverage on the NBA, NFL, etc, than most other sports. even though the matches for NBA, etc, are not held in these countries. that's what i call popularity.

    popularity not in terms of participation, but in terms of media coverage and attention.

  2. #70
    Administrator kwun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    Now, if you know the reason why every kindergarten, primary school, high school or college in North America does not have at least one badminton court to every 100 students, you probably have the answer why badminton is not big time there. Any moves to make the sport popular must come from the grassroots. If the schools don't do it, you think Yonex is foolish enough to be a misguided 'Santa Claus'? As I said earlier, sponsors are not 'market makers'. Market makers are people like us. If every American parent will go out of their way to buy their kids a racquet each, help build more courts, hire more coaches, have their lives revolve around badminton, this will do it. It is after all grassroots. But then the big question-why should they do it? I don't see Yonex or other sponsors having a role here. Sponsors will come later, begging and fighting to give you bags of money.
    taneepak, you have pointed out exactly my point in the article.

    1. no one would take up a sport for no reason, well, perhaps some would, but not a significant proportion to make any difference. therefore, you don't see many Americans taking up badminton. thus no popular.

    2. no Americans taking up the sports means very few sponsors.

    3. see 1.

    and the circles continue.

    in other words, you have continued to point out the problem, but offered no plausible solution.

  3. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    taneepak, you have pointed out exactly my point in the article.

    1. no one would take up a sport for no reason, well, perhaps some would, but not a significant proportion to make any difference. therefore, you don't see many Americans taking up badminton. thus no popular.

    2. no Americans taking up the sports means very few sponsors.

    3. see 1.

    and the circles continue.

    in other words, you have continued to point out the problem, but offered no plausible solution.
    Exactly, points #1,2,3 have been beaten up gazillion times already in BC.
    He's still stuck in a loop it seem The problem of grassroot had been discussed, right down to the cost of a basketball versus plastic shuttle.
    Last edited by cooler; 04-19-2005 at 04:25 PM.

  4. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    I see the need to define 'popular'.
    Badminton is already second most participated sport in the world so in this sense badminton is already 'popular' The other part of 'popularity' is # of people wanna watch it or the audience size which badminton lacks here. By getting US onboard ie, glamoritize it , badminton can be a truly mainstream sport. But............

    U cant really blame yonex because the return on promotional/marketing bucks spent in north american cant compare to asia, ie much cheaper in asia and there are 2.5+ billion of chinese and indian and SE asian vs 0.35 billion canada/US/mexico. That is the bottom line

    Let me give u a mathematical derivation or proof:

    1. marketing and material cost 10x cheaper in asia
    2. population in North American(N.A.) is 10x less than asia

    investment bang for the buck is 100x less attractive in N.A.

    - er
    Marketing decisions isnt always done based on pure # of the population. It has to be done based on # of specific population that can afford your product. Yes, its true that there are 2.5 billion chinese and another couple billion in India. But, how many are actually living in a world that they can afford a Yonex racket or buy shuttles that last 5 points or pay membership fees to badminton facilities? Yes, in USA there is only .35 billion but I am willing to bet that there are 100x or more people in USA that can afford to play badminton.

    Currently, its totally obvious that the sponsors such as Yonex are waiting for demands of badminton to go up before they will step up to the plate and sponsor with big $$$$. Well, this may be a good business decision that everyone already knows and its a safe decision that you and I can make without even a business degree. However, both what Kwun and I are saying is that the market potential is huge and instead of waiting for badminton to take off, which may take forever in the established sports world in north america, Yonex needs to create the demand by stepping up the markeing and promotion of the sport with substantial tournament prize money as well as well organized badminton training programs similar to youth soccer leagues. Only with these right driving forces, badminton will break out from the trend and perhaps make a move on main stream sports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpalot
    Marketing decisions isnt always done based on pure # of the population. It has to be done based on # of specific population that can afford your product. Yes, its true that there are 2.5 billion chinese and another couple billion in India. But, how many are actually living in a world that they can afford a Yonex racket or buy shuttles that last 5 points or pay membership fees to badminton facilities? Yes, in USA there is only .35 billion but I am willing to bet that there are 100x or more people in USA that can afford to play badminton.

    Currently, its totally obvious that the sponsors such as Yonex are waiting for demands of badminton to go up before they will step up to the plate and sponsor with big $$$$. Well, this may be a good business decision that everyone already knows and its a safe decision that you and I can make without even a business degree. However, both what Kwun and I are saying is that the market potential is huge and instead of waiting for badminton to take off, which may take forever in the established sports world in north america, Yonex needs to create the demand by stepping up the markeing and promotion of the sport with substantial tournament prize money as well as well organized badminton training programs similar to youth soccer leagues. Only with these right driving forces, badminton will break out from the trend and perhaps make a move on main stream sports.
    psychologically ur correct, i'm not disagreeing that.
    however, i'm sure yonex, nike, dunlop, prince, carlton, slazenger, etc have all done their math

    sorry i can't add more, i don't want to and can't speak for the above organization.
    Last edited by cooler; 04-19-2005 at 08:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    psychologically ur correct, i'm not disagreeing that.
    however, i'm sure yonex, nike, dunlop, prince, carlton, slazenger, etc have all done their math

    sorry i can't add more, i don't want to and can't speak for the above organization.
    You know there is a difference in all those corporations that you listed. Of all the companies, there is one company called Yonex that is making muli-millions from the sport of badminton for many many years now. As a badminton player that never really see any badminton being promoted to the main stream in north america other than few shiny moments in the Olympics, I like to see something. Anything. Any efforts will do. When I saw a post that Ping Pong has a huge tournament in Las Vegas, I know exactly how far behind badminton is already. Did anyone know the first few casinos in Las Vegas ever built all have badminton courts built in ?? Now it seems next to impossible to even have a tournament in that city. The facilities would be impossible to rent given the obvious levels of lack of promotion for badminton at this time.

    Anyways, instead of waiting, lets look at Speedminton. It is an example of creating demand without having any market share. Speedminton is a brand new "game" that has zero population to start. But given their marketing ability I have seen so far, it wont take long to surpass badminton. So question is, how much more demand is Yonex waiting for before they will start ???

    http://www.mariaworld.net/speedminton.htm
    Last edited by Jumpalot; 04-19-2005 at 08:51 PM.

  7. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jumpalot
    You know there is a difference in all those corporations that you listed. Of all the companies, there is one company called Yonex that is making muli-millions from the sport of badminton for many many years now. As a badminton player that never really see any badminton being promoted to the main stream in north america other than few shiny moments in the Olympics, I like to see something. Anything. Any efforts will do. When I saw a post that Ping Pong has a huge tournament in Las Vegas, I know exactly how far behind badminton is already. Did anyone know the first few casinos in Las Vegas ever built all have badminton courts built in ?? Now it seems next to impossible to even have a tournament in that city. The facilities would be impossible to rent given the obvious levels of lack of promotion for badminton at this time.

    Anyways, instead of waiting, lets look at Speedminton. It is an example of creating demand without having any market share. Speedminton is a brand new "game" that has zero population to start. But given their marketing ability I have seen so far, it wont take long to surpass badminton. So question is, how much more demand is Yonex waiting for before they will start ???

    http://www.mariaworld.net/speedminton.htm
    I share your grief.
    table tennis is bigger(higher profile) than badminton in europe as well.
    IMO, leadership role should still fall on the IBF. I doubt the paddle makers (in table tennis) are doing the promotion but rather i think it is the table tennis associations are spearheading table tennis. Of course there are example where a sport company does the pushing like in speedminton. However, table tennis is real and had been result of TT association efforts.

  8. #76
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Personally, 'Popular' means, it's something that the rest of the world can easily identify and in most cases will try to follow or create a spin-off of it. I'm not just talking about sports(ie.badminton,soccer), but anything in general that comes out of the U.S. Now, I'm not saying ALL things that have come out of the U.S. have had big impacts(ie. like American Football), but lots of things in the world today, have some influences from the U.S. For an example not related to sports, the U.S. popularize the show "American Idol" and I know in Indonesia there's a show called "Indonesian Idol". Where did they got the idea from??yep the U.S...I'm sure others in here can bring other example(s) that can be found in other countries which can be traced back to the U.S. Then basketball, nowadays, players from Euro, Asia, Africa, Australia are playing or at least have their mugs on TV in the U.S. As for soccer, it has been there for a long time, even the U.S. has been exposed to it. But it didn't experience a big boom of interest until the last 10+ yrs. or so(with the World Cup held in the U.S. in 1994). After that, we all could see how much interest has grown ever since. The MLB was created and until now still exists. Of course the U.S. Women's team has been dominating the soccer world for years recently.
    Anyhoo, here's hoping with the upcoming WC, which will be held in 4 months, it will "jumpstart" the interest of badminton in the U.S...Too bad, it's only going to be a 1 week event and only played in 1 city...

    As far as your statement that says "Badminton is already second most participated sport in the world so in this sense badminton is already 'popular'", hmm, it could be true, but if you can show us some kind of stats/evidence which backs up your statement..I know, for a fact, basketball is on the rise world-wide, as seen by the influx of international young players drafting and moving to the U.S..Could the lure of big money awarded playing in the NBA, a big factor in the "rise" or "popularity" of basketball??..
    Hmm, which brings me to another question, could it be that probably it depends on who the major sponsor is and WHERE are they coming from??ie. Nike is from U.S. thus the major push..Whereas Yonex is from Japan..

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    I see the need to define 'popular'.
    Badminton is already second most participated sport in the world so in this sense badminton is already 'popular' The other part of 'popularity' is # of people wanna watch it or the audience size which badminton lacks here. By getting US onboard ie, glamoritize it , badminton can be a truly mainstream sport. But............

    U cant really blame yonex because the return on promotional/marketing bucks spent in north american cant compare to asia, ie much cheaper in asia and there are 2.5+ billion of chinese and indian and SE asian vs 0.35 billion canada/US/mexico. That is the bottom line

    Let me give u a mathematical derivation or proof:

    1. marketing and material cost 10x cheaper in asia
    2. population in North American(N.A.) is 10x less than asia

    investment bang for the buck is 100x less attractive in N.A.

    - er
    Last edited by ctjcad; 04-20-2005 at 01:06 AM.

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    no one knows for sure anymore but being 2nd most popular sport had been continue loosely stated by many organization, clubs, and website.

    http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...G=Search&meta=

    badminton is johnny come lately and required massive effort to displace or stealing fan base from other well established sports. However, I surely dont want to convert some goon-like fans from basketball/hockey/WWF to badminton supporters. A safer and lower cost route is to wait for it to grow from grassroot. This take time but the foundation would be stronger. . I see the later is happening although maybe not as quick as we hardcore badminton fans like it to be but it is happening.

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    Default Nice work!

    Yeah i must agree that Badminton is not popular. The thing that is the most annoying is that most people believe that Badminton is a whimpy sport. It just makes my annoyed on how they can judge a sport without even trying it.

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    A lot is being talked about 'popularity' of the game.the game may not be that popular,but i think it is gaining atleast 'some' attention now.in countries like indonesia denmark etc. badminton is pretty popular.but in most other countries in the world it is not the case.u may say there is no money in the sport etc,etc but i think a start has to be made from somewhere.now,it's not like the media is not at all 'interested' in the sport but the case definitely is that the media is not running behind badminton.persnally from my experience i will say that there is lack of proper communication and hardly any means that badminton news hits the world's sport headlines.so it's not like the world media is not interested in the sport but i think that in most cases it's just that they have no information whatsoever.there is no uniformity in badminton news.[atleast in countries where badminton is not very famous]:-examples-

    1.during the all england there was badminton news on the news channels of how the players entered the pre-quarters,i.e whom they defeated etc.but after that there was no news on who entered the quarters,the semis and then the finals.only for the finals was the news shown on tv.[is that not odd??]

    2.it seems that recently the world's oldest active badminton player expired.[was from canada i think].this was piblished in all newspapers here,but strangely when camilla martin retired there was no news whatsover.now it's not like the world media is not interested in such a great champion,but it's just that they were not given enough data uniformly.
    i think the IBF should appoint a committe sollely to make sure videoclips,player's opinions etc. during a tournamnt be made available for the 'world' media rather than the news being just limited to areas located locally.that's from where the 'popularity' would begin
    have any of u living in countries where badminton is not a major sport have had similar experiences.??
    Last edited by DaN_fAn; 04-20-2005 at 03:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaN_fAn
    A lot is being talked about 'popularity' of the game.the game may not be that popular,but i think it is gaining atleast 'some' attention now.in countries like indonesia denmark etc. badminton is pretty popular.but in most other countries in the world it is not the case.u may say there is no money in the sport etc,etc but i think a start has to be made from somewhere.now,it's not like the media is not at all 'interested' in the sport but the case definitely is that the media is not running behind badminton.persnally from my experience i will say that there is lack of proper communication and hardly any means that badminton news hits the world's sport headlines.so it's not like the world media is not interested in the sport but i think that in most cases it's just that they have no information whatsoever.there is no uniformity in badminton news.[atleast in countries where badminton is not very famous]:-examples-

    1.during the all england there was badminton news on the news channels of how the players entered the pre-quarters,i.e whom they defeated etc.but after that there was no news on who entered the quarters,the semis and then the finals.only for the finals was the news shown on tv.[is that not odd??]

    2.it seems that recently the world's oldest active badminton player expired.[was from canada i think].this was piblished in all newspapers here,but strangely when camilla martin retired there was no news whatsover.now it's not like the world media is not interested in such a great champion,but it's just that they were not given enough data uniformly.
    i think the IBF should appoint a committe sollely to make sure videoclips,player's opinions etc. during a tournamnt be made available for the 'world' media rather than the news being just limited to areas located locally.that's from where the 'popularity' would begin
    have any of u living in countries where badminton is not a major sport have had similar experiences.??
    there there, you're getting warm.
    It's back to the source, lack of leadership.

    IBF is too one dimensional, tinkering the scores, uniform, court size, etc. Very narrowed mind. What they should do is more media relationship / interaction. Like dan fan said, supply writeup of recent result to media network, give them video clips. Hell, give the media people copyright exempted videos of the recent tournament as promo, just like free samples in any new product introduction. What is the point locking those videos in the vault and charging expensive dvds to the fans. Badminton won't get exposure by having IBF officials in meetings, they have to go out there and sell, sell, sell! IBF need to pounds the pavement, not selecting color scheme of player's shirt, re-jigging scoring system and redrawing lines of courts in the meeting rooms
    Last edited by cooler; 04-20-2005 at 04:04 AM.

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    Cool

    [QUOTE=ctjcad]Personally, 'Popular' means, it's something that the rest of the world can easily identify and in most cases will try to follow or create a spin-off of it. I'm not just talking about sports(ie.badminton,soccer), but anything in general that comes out of the U.S. Now, I'm not saying ALL things that have come out of the U.S. have had big impacts(ie. like American Football), but lots of things in the world today, have some influences from the U.S. For an example not related to sports, the U.S. popularize the show "American Idol" and I know in Indonesia there's a show called "Indonesian Idol". Where did they got the idea from??yep the U.S...
    QUOTE]

    American idol was actually based upon the shows: pop idol; popstars and x factor which were first launched in britain.

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    [QUOTE=General Foo]
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Personally, 'Popular' means, it's something that the rest of the world can easily identify and in most cases will try to follow or create a spin-off of it. I'm not just talking about sports(ie.badminton,soccer), but anything in general that comes out of the U.S. Now, I'm not saying ALL things that have come out of the U.S. have had big impacts(ie. like American Football), but lots of things in the world today, have some influences from the U.S. For an example not related to sports, the U.S. popularize the show "American Idol" and I know in Indonesia there's a show called "Indonesian Idol". Where did they got the idea from??yep the U.S...
    QUOTE]

    American idol was actually based upon the shows: pop idol; popstars and x factor which were first launched in britain.
    LOL, britain huh, so was badminton

    US shows like reality shows, fear factor came from japan i think where they have these wacky game shows

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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    True, that's probably the influence..But how did it become so "big" and "popular"??..Did the British "popularize" it??Or was it because the U.S. "copied" and made it "popular" from it's commercialization??...
    That's my whole point-it's not so much who "really started" it, but who "made it big or who popularize it"....

    Quote Originally Posted by General Foo
    American idol was actually based upon the shows: pop idol; popstars and x factor which were first launched in britain.

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    Exactly, you're getting close to my(as well as other people's) point..
    Like Britain who invented Badminton and tv shows who introduce pop idols stars and Japan who has all these wacky game shows, it wasn't til the U.S. bought the idea and started similar things and made it "popular"??..And how did it end up so "popular" worldwide??..Were the Japanese or British able to "popularize" their show "big time"??Or was it because of U.S. effort/attempts..

    That's my whole point and that's what is needed for badminton..Invest in the U.S. and use its commercialization and reap the benefit...

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    LOL, britain huh, so was badminton

    US shows like reality shows, fear factor came from japan i think where they have these wacky game shows
    Last edited by ctjcad; 04-20-2005 at 04:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Exactly, you're getting close to my(as well as other people's) point..
    Like Britain who invented Badminton and tv shows who introduce pop idols stars and Japan who has all these wacky game shows, it wasn't til the U.S. bought the idea and started similar things and made it "popular"??..And how did it end up so "popular" worldwide??..Were the Japanese or British able to "popularize" their show "big time"??Or was it because of U.S. effort/attempts..

    That's my whole point and that's what is needed for badminton..Invest in the U.S. and use its commercialization and reap the benefit...
    I think we all agree (by now) what's need for badminton to go mainstream, the question is to whom and by whom?

    I dont think the above shows were dreamt up by tv executives after watching british and japanese shows but rather 'someone' or some groups went and sold the show idea to the tv executives.

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