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  1. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mag
    Unless we're just splitting hairs, isn't that EXACTLY the point? In a sense, it doesn't even matter what the rules say on this, because the only thing that CAN be practically judged by a human is whether the initial point of contact is over the net or not (or whether a player invades opponent's court space or not, you can't judge BOTH). And indeed, that is the interpretation of the rule in practical application in real tournaments, with real umpires (real humans) umpiring. Just think about the consequences of any other interpretations or the rule.
    Actually, I think it's not that difficult. I suppose it would be easier than judging for offside in a football (soccer) match. The umpire sits right in the middle, so he/she will always have a clear line of vision. For the borderline cases, I guess he/she will just have to give the benefit of the doubt to the striker (it's the opponent's fault to hit that high near the net). Anyway, luckily for us, this sort of situation don't often occur.

  2. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Nicholls
    I'm not sure I know what your point is then.
    I take it you didn't read the second part of my post, then?

    THE POINT: Why discuss a rule interpretation that is impossible to umpire? Or, to put it differently: it is irrelevant whether #4 is legal or not, because using any other interpretation of 13.3 than that the initial point of contact is what matters would mean that no human could make a correct call.

    Determining on which side initial point of contact occurred is hard enough, without the benefit of a replay.

  3. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by hcyong
    Actually, I think it's not that difficult. I suppose it would be easier than judging for offside in a football (soccer) match. The umpire sits right in the middle, so he/she will always have a clear line of vision. For the borderline cases, I guess he/she will just have to give the benefit of the doubt to the striker (it's the opponent's fault to hit that high near the net). Anyway, luckily for us, this sort of situation don't often occur.
    Did you see the pictures in the origional post? The shot was not too high off the net. Also, this happen quite often in case of very tight net drop return (lift or drop back again) while the other side block the net. You are talking about an ideal situation here with a ref who has 20/20 eyes (yes, this is required for ref in international match). However, can a ref tell if a racquet's tip is just touching the plane or has it cross over the plane just by 5mm? Yes, some members here plays international match while most of us don't. If that is the case we do not have a judge to call any shot. As I said it before, just play on...

  4. #55
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    Oh, OK.
    You're talking about enforcement of the laws.
    I thought we were talking about the letter of the law.

    Back to Gollum for the philosphy question then.
    If nobody sees the fault happen, did it really happen?

  5. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neil Nicholls
    Oh, OK.
    You're talking about enforcement of the laws.
    I thought we were talking about the letter of the law.

    Back to Gollum for the philosphy question then.
    If nobody sees the fault happen, did it really happen?
    Very good Neil

    Kicking solipsists out the way like the scum that they are, then yes the tree did fall and the fault did occur. But the event is unintersting in itself; it only acquires meaning through its relations to our values.

    So the tree fell, but if no-one cares about trees, then it doesn't matter. Philosophers are in disagreement over whether squirrels get a vote, but the issues of animal and alien minds can be discussed independently and are therefore not germane.

    The following are three mutually distinct but related issues: the letter of the law; the interpretation of the law; and the enforcement of the law. Judging cases such as this is difficult, because it requires consideration of all three and how they are connected. Isolation of any one element will lead to a spurious conclusion - because it is a conclusion out of context.

    None of that helps resolve the question; philosophy once again proves that its virtue is not solving problems, but posing them.

    For me, this thread has demonstrated that opinion on this matter is divided, with no clear ruling either way.

  6. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    Very good Neil

    Kicking solipsists out the way like the scum that they are, then yes the tree did fall and the fault did occur. But the event is unintersting in itself; it only acquires meaning through its relations to our values.

    So the tree fell, but if no-one cares about trees, then it doesn't matter. Philosophers are in disagreement over whether squirrels get a vote, but the issues of animal and alien minds can be discussed independently and are therefore not germane.

    The following are three mutually distinct but related issues: the letter of the law; the interpretation of the law; and the enforcement of the law. Judging cases such as this is difficult, because it requires consideration of all three and how they are connected. Isolation of any one element will lead to a spurious conclusion - because it is a conclusion out of context.

    None of that helps resolve the question; philosophy once again proves that its virtue is not solving problems, but posing them.

    For me, this thread has demonstrated that opinion on this matter is divided, with no clear ruling either way.
    Neo: WOW...........

    According to the "Classical" laws of physics, it is a fault.
    People care about the rule but most of people can not tell if it is carry over or this topic we are talking about here
    To enforce this rule, we need a camera which fix on the net, not the pretty girl in the stand. Also, a Deep Blue will also help to recreate the shot in 3D pictures.
    Last edited by silentheart; 05-09-2005 at 09:58 AM.

  7. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    Very good Neil

    Kicking solipsists out the way like the scum that they are, then yes the tree did fall and the fault did occur. But the event is unintersting in itself; it only acquires meaning through its relations to our values.

    So the tree fell, but if no-one cares about trees, then it doesn't matter. Philosophers are in disagreement over whether squirrels get a vote, but the issues of animal and alien minds can be discussed independently and are therefore not germane.

    The following are three mutually distinct but related issues: the letter of the law; the interpretation of the law; and the enforcement of the law. Judging cases such as this is difficult, because it requires consideration of all three and how they are connected. Isolation of any one element will lead to a spurious conclusion - because it is a conclusion out of context.

    None of that helps resolve the question; philosophy once again proves that its virtue is not solving problems, but posing them.

    For me, this thread has demonstrated that opinion on this matter is divided, with no clear ruling either way.
    Gollum, steer clear of LSD, you're frightening me.

  8. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    Gollum, steer clear of LSD, you're frightening me.
    You'll be relieved to hear that I gave up full-time philosophy almost a year ago. I have occasional relapses (see above), but I've pretty much kicked the habit. I feel I can lead a more normal life now, so long as I take things one day at a time

  9. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    You'll be relieved to hear that I gave up full-time philosophy almost a year ago. I have occasional relapses (see above), but I've pretty much kicked the habit. I feel I can lead a more normal life now, so long as I take things one day at a time
    I think you are a practising philosopher judging by your present philosophy in life in bold letters. Not that I disagree.

  10. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    None of that helps resolve the question; philosophy once again proves that its virtue is not solving problems, but posing them.

    For me, this thread has demonstrated that opinion on this matter is divided, with no clear ruling either way.
    This impass can be easily resolved by having close up camera-like device for replay as used in tennis and hockey. ie, we don't have to rely on squirrel to tell us if the tree as fallen if remote monitoring was set up.

  11. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    This impass can be easily resolved by having close up camera-like device for replay as used in tennis and hockey. ie, we don't have to rely on squirrel to tell us if the tree as fallen if remote monitoring was set up.
    Beware! That's isolating one element at the expense of the other related two.

    Because cameras are not used in this way, the rules can be vague. If cameras ARE used in this way, the rules will need to be changed to give an explicit verdict.

  12. #63
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    I just had to revive this thread.
    In the match between Mi Zhou and Ruina Going in 2003, the judge called an error. But I think it was pretty unfair. So much for video judging eh?

    I extracted the video scene. Take it here, it's less than 5 megs.
    http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...11JFWX13YNLYOU

    And here if the bandwith has been surpassed.
    http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...M0LY7GN2I9VOAN

  13. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loopy
    I just had to revive this thread.
    In the match between Mi Zhou and Ruina Going in 2003, the judge called an error. But I think it was pretty unfair. So much for video judging eh?

    I extracted the video scene. Take it here, it's less than 5 megs.
    http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=0...11JFWX13YNLYOU

    And here if the bandwith has been surpassed.
    http://s23.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=1...M0LY7GN2I9VOAN
    cant seem to download.
    can u post a frame capture photo?

  14. #65
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    I just tried and it seen ok. Wait for a few seconds... I have to wait for about 5 sec before the save window came up.

  15. #66
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    thanks, it worked this this time.

    the stroke looked ok to me on my first watch.
    when i zoom in, it clearly show the cork had passed the net plane and mi zhou racket is still 1.5 to 2 feet away. It was a bad call by the umpire.

  16. #67
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    pic 1: cork just enter mi zhou side while her racket is still 1.5 to 2 feet away
    pic 2: moment just before mi zhou strike shuttle. About 75% of shuttlecock is already on mi zhou side, cork facing toward mi zhou
    pic 3: moment after mi zhou strike shuttlecock with cork turning away from mi zhou. the freeze frame capture cork intersect the plane of the net (cork is facing away from umpire/camera)

    the umpire was wrong even when he had the best view.
    Attached Images Attached Images      
    Last edited by cooler; 05-14-2005 at 03:21 AM.

  17. #68
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    Nice capture cooler.
    I agree also, the umpire made a bad call. The commentators said it too, alrthough in a more brit manner.

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