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  1. #18
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    i think taufik generates a lot of power from his foot stomping

  2. #19
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    Default power...

    I think if a test of Taufiks fast twitch muscle fibers for his right forearm where conducted, I beleive it would show that he indeed has very strong fast-twitch forearm and wrist muscles.

    These muscles have been built up by years of training, and are of course geared more towards fast twitching fibers than slow strong "bulky" fibers for big weights.. This muscles will not show like huge bicepts or bulky arm muscles.. But still doesn't mean he has "weak" arms.. I would also bet his right arm also is alot stronger than his left..

    Just think about it.. training your arm with badminton-shots many hours daily for many years with good technique.. Would it even be possible not to get strong underarm muscles from that :-)

    /twobeer
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  3. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer
    ... forearm and wrist muscles.
    Good point but I don't think there is any muscles in your wrists at all(try to flex your wrist and not your forearm in the same time (If you do then I'll see you on the discovery channel)). Its more like tendons and veins and 'stuff'.

    Certainly his forearm is incredibly powerful. I would like to see a documentary about professional players life. And not the kind of shallow 'n tv friendly "I-like-to-meet-my-friends" kind of documentary... but a real deep and intriguing one for hardcore badder's... that would be AWESOME

    Maybe information is whats lacking to get badminton the respect it deserves?

  4. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin (SWE)
    Good point but I don't think there is any muscles in your wrists at all(try to flex your wrist and not your forearm in the same time (If you do then I'll see you on the discovery channel)). Its more like tendons and veins and 'stuff'.

    Certainly his forearm is incredibly powerful. I would like to see a documentary about professional players life. And not the kind of shallow 'n tv friendly "I-like-to-meet-my-friends" kind of documentary... but a real deep and intriguing one for hardcore badder's... that would be AWESOME

    Maybe information is whats lacking to get badminton the respect it deserves?
    Yea good point about the wrist.. I guess i meant the forearm muscle for up-down movement of the hand (incorrectly labeled wrist muscles ) and the muscles for forearm rotary as the other strong ones :-)

    /Twobeer

  5. #22
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    It's worth noting that Taufik's hitting technique is very unorthodox. The angle between formed by his racquet shaft and his forearm is much steeper than other players', especially during preparation where it is close to 90 degrees. Biomechanically, the optimal angle at point of contact is 135 degrees (there is scientific evidence for this and it has been discussed here before), and most top players (unconsciously) adhere to this, but during the preparatory phase there are great variations.

    Compare Taufik's preparation to Lin Dan's, for instance. Lin Dan also has a very odd preparation phase, but in the opposite way from Taufik. Lin Dan's shaft-to-forearm angle during preparation is very shallow, sometimes it looks to be almost 180 degrees. Somehow he has succeeded in making that work too.

  6. #23
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    WRIST POWER!!! WRIST POWER!!! WRIST POWER!!!
    This is the answer...

    Taufik got super strong wrist power...every saw his backhand cross court drive at the rear court?? wow... FAST....STRONG....POWERFUL....

  7. #24
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    I don't tihnk it's all about wrist power tho.. hahahaha.. I thought you gotta rotate your forearm, along with wrist, and every muscles of your body. I also heard, the power you get is from your basic foundation, which is from your legs too. lol... and all of that.. along with experience and timing, it would be strong. i guess?... well.. some people are just blessed with smashes like that.... Halim smashes crazy too... that's just what i learned from people around the places.. I'm a noob. haha

  8. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChocoChipWaffle
    Update:

    I watched Taufik's video again. It's the one against lee tsuen tseng during tc 2002 final... and i found out something that not alot of players do...

    his arm acts like a fly swatter... his arm looks like an accessory, and his body rotation looks like it does all the work. His arm acts like a whip lash.

    All i can add so far...
    can u share us that video ?

  9. #26
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    All top players have strong wrists, which are necessary for power, deception. and snap.
    I am inclined to believe that a strong wrist, correctly used, is the key to power. The wrist is the part that gives shots sting and power. Let me explain.
    Let us have a look at this wonderfully supple 'universal' joint. Put out your hand like you are holding a racquet with the basic grip. Imagine you are holding a screwdriver instead of a racquet. Now turn the 'screwdriver' inwards (anti-clockwise) and you will find it can turn or rotate 90 degrees. Reset your screwdriver grip back to original, then turn or rotate it outwards (clockwise) and you will find it can rotate another 90 degrees. In total your wrist can rotate 180 degrees. You will also notice that the forearm gets a free ride-it also rotates, almost 180 degrees near the wrist but less so near the elbow.
    Another aspect of the wrist is its ability to stronly bend or in badminton speak 'cocking' and 'uncocking' of the wrist. Your wrist can bend foreward towards palm side about 45 degrees, and backwards towards the back of the palm another 45 degrees. This gives you a total of 90 degrees 'cocking' and 'uncocking' power.
    The above two unique properties of the wrist, rotation and cocking and uncocking, if executed correctly, will give you effortless power. The rotation of the wrist (which some late comers like us to believe is pronation of the forearm) either inwards or outwards, when executed immediately after impact of the racquet/shuttle, will straighten the arm, effectively 'lengthening' the length of the racquet plus the arm, thus providing that extra punch. A forehand clear or smash with the wrist rotating inwards will straighten the arm a split second after impact. If the wrist is not rotated the arm will not be straight after impact, thus losing power. With backhand clears or smashes, the outwards rotation of the wrist (the forearm gets a free ride) will straighten the arm after impact, resulting in power. With the racquet and the arm almost straight the racquet head speed is much faster than with a non-straight arm plus racquet. It is this extra racquet head speed that gives you the punch, not a macho man with a 25 inch bicep.
    Now you add the 'cocking' and 'uncocking' property of the wrist, which also imparts additional speed, length and steepness, to the above wrist rotation, the wrist is the key.
    In the late 1950s tennis greats like Pancho Gonzales and Rod Laver claimed that it was the wrist that was the key to their power, but they were later rubbished by non-playing sports scientists. However, today you do hear of pronation in tennis-you can see it-which is what the wrist does. In badminton, top players of old regarded the wrist as god.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mag
    It's worth noting that Taufik's hitting technique is very unorthodox. The angle between formed by his racquet shaft and his forearm is much steeper than other players', especially during preparation where it is close to 90 degrees. Biomechanically, the optimal angle at point of contact is 135 degrees (there is scientific evidence for this and it has been discussed here before), and most top players (unconsciously) adhere to this, but during the preparatory phase there are great variations.

    Compare Taufik's preparation to Lin Dan's, for instance. Lin Dan also has a very odd preparation phase, but in the opposite way from Taufik. Lin Dan's shaft-to-forearm angle during preparation is very shallow, sometimes it looks to be almost 180 degrees. Somehow he has succeeded in making that work too.
    could you explain this a little further? I'm not sure what you are referring to by these angles. from what I understand, you are saying that on Taufik's preparation he brings the racquet to 90 degrees, which means the racquet and forearm form a right angle. Lin Dan's is 180, so does that mean he has little to no backswing?
    and when you refer to optimal point of contact being 135 degrees, does this mean that the racquet has swung past the "straight from the arm" point? I have heard a lot of coaches teach that the optimal point is when the racquet points straight up from the arm. thanks

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    The rotation of the wrist (which some late comers like us to believe is pronation of the forearm) either inwards or outwards...... (the forearm gets a free ride)
    I believe that it doesn't matter what the anatomical truth is, so long as the player understands the right movement.

    Nonetheless I still believe that emphasising the wrist as the main source of power is harmful for teaching, because many players incorrectly assume this means flexion and extension of the wrist. If you must teach with anatomy, the forearm is better.

    Note that the wrist is a joint, not a muscle. The wrist joint can move in four different ways: extension and flexion; and radial deviation and ulnal deviation. Extension and flexion are the movements normally called "cocking" and "uncocking" for a forehand stroke such as a flick serve; radial and ulnal deviation are the cocking and uncocking movements for a backhand with the thumb grip, such as a backhand flick serve.

    The wrist itself, as a joint, does not move at all during pronation and supination -- it's the forearm that pronates and supinates. During a badminton swing, however, there will normally be some relaxed wrist flexion or extension on the end of a forearm rotation.

    The forearm does not get a "free ride" in any movement of the wrist, because every movement of the wrist is controlled (and powered) by the forearm muscles.

  12. #29
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    You can actually try to test out the power of the wrist/forearm rotation without any wrist cocking and uncocking vs the same wrist/forearm rotation but with cocking/uncocking of the wrist, by trying to hit a smash or a clear. With the former there is a lack of whip but the latter will be more speedy and punchy. Do the latter like the way Lin Dan does-he pronates and cocks his wrist, the latter almost at more than right angles, which gives him his killer smashes. Now, if Lin Dan merely pronates his wrist/forearm but dispenses away with the cocking and uncocking of his wrist, his smash will be much tamer. It is this added wrist snap, in combination with the wrist rotation, that speeds up the shuttle. You can record on dvd in HQ mode a LIn Dan match and then replay it back at 1/4 speed (slow motion) to study this wrist/forearm rotation plus wrist cocking/uncocking motion. HQ mode will give you a clearer picture.

  13. #30
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    First, I agree that wrist flexion and extension (cocking and uncocking) contribute to the power of a smash. I believe, however, that the direct power contribution is small.

    Analysing the wrist movement of top players can be misleading. Yes, the wrist moves substantially; but that does not entail that the wrist movement is providing power directly.

    In my view, the wrist movement is mainly transferring existing power developed by the forearm rotation. The wrist flexion is quite relaxed and forms the end of a kinetic chain, rather than generating significant power.

    See this formal study for an analysis of the segmental power contributions:
    http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home5/PG022594...nton_smash.pdf

  14. #31
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    I believe the wrist is only for timing purposes. When you see Taufik smash he generates power from every portion of his body. You can see the potential energy building up in him when he jump smashes, his legs rise a little flexing his hips slightly, his torso turns, his shoulder cocks back, his non racket arm gets ready for the follow through. Then his relaxed body contracts and most of this energy throughout his body is expelled when he contracts everything using the arm to get the kinetic energy to his racket. Generating speed is all about the transfer of kinetic energy to the racket - and the wrist is the final part of the body so timining is everything to transfer the most possible energy.

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum
    First, I agree that wrist flexion and extension (cocking and uncocking) contribute to the power of a smash. I believe, however, that the direct power contribution is small.

    Analysing the wrist movement of top players can be misleading. Yes, the wrist moves substantially; but that does not entail that the wrist movement is providing power directly.

    In my view, the wrist movement is mainly transferring existing power developed by the forearm rotation. The wrist flexion is quite relaxed and forms the end of a kinetic chain, rather than generating significant power.

    See this formal study for an analysis of the segmental power contributions:
    http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home5/PG022594...nton_smash.pdf
    Hey, that's where I will be going at the end of next year! I wonder whether the engineers would appreciate a physicist's input?

  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eurasian =--(O)
    I believe the wrist is only for timing purposes. When you see Taufik smash he generates power from every portion of his body. You can see the potential energy building up in him when he jump smashes, his legs rise a little flexing his hips slightly, his torso turns, his shoulder cocks back, his non racket arm gets ready for the follow through. Then his relaxed body contracts and most of this energy throughout his body is expelled when he contracts everything using the arm to get the kinetic energy to his racket. Generating speed is all about the transfer of kinetic energy to the racket - and the wrist is the final part of the body so timining is everything to transfer the most possible energy.
    Hmm, i would concur with the statement i've highlighted above. Which brought me to an 'direct' example withTaufik.
    Now, to share with you all, last yr as i was helping with doing the translation in the World Championship, i was fortunate enough to help translate for Taufik after his victory in the Final. Just before the barrage of questions came up, i noticed he was wincing a bit while grabbing and rubbing his shoulder which then i asked him why he was doing. I remembered him said in response, with some wincing, "Ouch, my (right)shoulder is really in pain, as he grabbed and sort of rub his (right) shoulder/upper torso. It's quite sore".(Imagine all those smashes he did in the other 4-5 matches prior). Other than that, i don't see anywhere else on his body which indicate it was affected.
    Thus i would say, the shoulder area also plays a very important factor, esp. for Taufik's smashes, along with the arm, elbow, forearm, wrist and hand.

    BTW, Gollum, i haven't read the whole thing, but i must say that's a very interesting yet very comprehensive study.
    Last edited by ctjcad; 09-08-2006 at 12:54 PM.

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    I concur with Eurasian's statement. I see almost men single player rise his right hip and leg (for righthanded players) in preparation phase for a smash. This would help contract the body much more.
    In my view, LinDan has a quite different style of smash - which is very wristy. His smashes are not so strong, but often very steep. Just look at the camera replay from behind when he smashes, his preparation phase is rather short and compact, but finishes with an explosive wrist snap.
    If someone wants to look for a really, really powerful, smash, i would recommend looking for Fuhaifeng's video. In contrast to Lin, Fu seems not using wrist at all, but mainly forearm pronation

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