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  1. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robin (SWE)
    and yet another example of a statement without facts to support it....
    Oh and I've got one too! Swedish people have this natural ability to withstand cold weather, for real!.... NOT
    canadian live in an igloo and eat seal blubber for dinner.... and all of us are lumberjack or hunters

  2. #36
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    We also feed hockey pucks to our young!


    Quote Originally Posted by Double_Player
    canadian live in an igloo and eat seal blubber for dinner.... and all of us are lumberjack or hunters

  3. #37
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    i dont think these things matter to the actual playing of the sport shure its great to study these things that intrigue us but when it comes to play whatever suits us the best lets us play to our best

  4. #38
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    The motive power comes from the swing. Without it you cannot get any leverage. The rest, body, timing, wrist/arm rotation, wrist snap, etc can then make use of the leverage thus generated to deliver the power efficiently or to misuse it if done incorrectly.

  5. #39
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    Are we talking about Taufik's Smash or Wrist Power here?

  6. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by evolution-Fung
    i dont think these things matter to the actual playing of the sport shure its great to study these things that intrigue us but when it comes to play whatever suits us the best lets us play to our best
    Ah... but the best for each of us is typically a variation of a normal form, which is what the study is about. If you know what the normal form is, there is a higher likelihood that you can find that best form for yourself.

    Good coaches, from years of experience playing and coaching, can spot severe deviations from the normal form, and recommend corrections. If the deviations are too severe, different muscle groups interfere with each other in contributing to the final power stroke (clear or smash).

    I think this thread, by bringing out the differences in stroke production of different players, is basically highlighting what deviations from the normal form might be unimportant.

    These biomechanics studies are useful, in the sense that they silence advocates of "wrist power", especially advocates who are coaches. Wrist flexion comes in as an important stage of the energy transfer process, but is hardly the final stage, because with modern light racquets, subtle finger/grip changes will affect the kinetic chain as well. Finally, modern racquets deform a lot in the swing, and the contribution from this racquet "flexion" ought to be considered as well.

    I suppose the main lesson in these biomechanics studies of segmental power is that the physics involved here is precisely that of the forced oscillator: maximum power transfer occurs when the applied force is in phase with the velocity of the oscillator. It is just that for segmented power transfer, there are more than one applied force (from different muscle groups), and more than one oscillator (the different segments).

    Another observation I believed the authors of the studies missed --- which they would have noticed, if they had measured the shuttle velocity as well --- is that the initial speed of the shuttle is approximately twice the racquet head speed. For the Singapore women national team members, the typical racquet head speed reported was about 40 m/s, which works out to about 80 m/s for the initial speed of the shuttle. If this is what is measured in all those hyped up smash speed measurements, then these women are smashing at about 290 km/hr! Still a lot slower than Fu Haifeng's record smash, but very fast nevertheless!

  7. #41
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    I suppose in normal trash-talking, I hear opponents say "I gonna kick your ass, Dave!" but if I'm playing against cheongsa, I'm betting bottom dollar I'll hear something along the lines of "today, I'm playing my A-game, as I find my applied forces are in phase with the velocity of my oscillators. Watch out!"

    -dave
    p.s. ahhh, smiley

  8. #42
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    Have people yet to move on from this wrist/forearm issue?

    Can we not just summarize the valid and filter out the excess verbosity?

    Yes, Taufik has a powerful smash.
    Yes, he does have the most amazing soft tissue shoulder structure of all of the men's singles players.
    Yes, the wrist ought not deviate much from neutral in any phase of the smash stroke for optimal power.
    Yes, the wrist will uncock for sliced smashes and to a lesser degree for some variations of reverse-sliced smashes.
    Yes, Lin Dan would be losing power if, hypothetically, he uncocked his wrist for a straight smash.
    Yes, there are different techniques which, blasphemously to members of this board, require different optimal starting points and backswings.
    Yes, it is never too late to learn proper techniques for both forearm and wrist.
    Yes, it is easier to achieve steep angles using a wrist-based smash.
    Yes, positiong and recruitment of certain body parts while constructive for certain smash techniques is detrimental for others.
    Yes, of the four forms of finger power only one is optimal for maximum power smash.
    Yes, for many modern rackets, high string tension is more a sign of user weakness rather than strength.

  9. #43
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    On what ground would you come to this conclusion? Isn't tension a personal preference?

    Quote Originally Posted by quisitor
    Yes, for many modern rackets, high string tension is more a sign of user weakness rather than strength.

  10. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by quisitor
    Yes, of the four forms of finger power only one is optimal for maximum power smash.
    The four forms of finger power?

    Please, enlighten us

  11. #45
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    To me personally i think some BC member here can smash harder than many of the singles player out there..
    I think majority of us miss the point with professional singles player...
    Their smash is so deadly because it came so sudden and very unexpected.. Lin Dan is a good example.. he turns a supposively cross court slice drop into a cross court smash...
    And I personally think Taufik's smash is deadly because it is extremely accurate, and this guy's footwork is so efficient that it allows him some time to fly so high behind the shuttle and thunder it down

  12. #46
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    Default Muscle Composition

    Quote Originally Posted by Robin (SWE)
    Good point but I don't think there is any muscles in your wrists at all
    In your forearm/wrist there's a few muscles which I'd say are related to a smash. There's the Flexor carpi radialis (if spelt correct) and Palmaris Longus. These are two long muscles on the underarm which would be responsible for pulling the wrist down. There's also a much smaller muscle in the joint of the wrist which contributes to this action called the flexor retinaculum.

    Muscle composition isn't really as much down to practise as it is to inheritance from parents. For example, a friend of mine could be born egnerally with a much more concentrated amount of slow twitch fibres which would mean he was a lot more built as you say and muscular naturally and would have a much more powerful muscle exertion. Myself could have inherited a large number of fast twitch fibres meaning my muscles would be better suited to quick snappy and explosive movements rather than endurance.

    Maybe Tuafik has more fast twitch than slow twitch fibres in his muscles which would explain why you say he's not built... But also would explain the power because for these three muscles in the arm to contract at once suddenly would create a bit of power from the wrist.

    I'm no professional anyway I'm only 15 so I can't really go flat out and say I'm right - don't shout at me if I've said anything wrong, a nice little prompt would be appreciated.

    Thanks guys.

  13. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simp84
    To me personally i think some BC member here can smash harder than many of the singles player out there..
    I think majority of us miss the point with professional singles player...
    Their smash is so deadly because it came so sudden and very unexpected.. Lin Dan is a good example.. he turns a supposively cross court slice drop into a cross court smash...
    And I personally think Taufik's smash is deadly because it is extremely accurate, and this guy's footwork is so efficient that it allows him some time to fly so high behind the shuttle and thunder it down
    I doubt that BC members could smash harder - remember that smashing hard is a skill that requires an optimized overhead stroke and specific speed-strength in the movements involved.

    However, it is true that theoretically, people could be smashing harder than the pros, it's just that it's unlikely that non-pros have really optimized their stroking techniques. Specific speed-strength could probably be developed to be greater than the pros because professional players need to maintain their stroke variations leading them to train in a way that is not optimized for power generation, but rather the best balance of power and variations.

    This is like in football where bench pressing strength is important to the players. Generally, football players will be the ones you find with the greatest bench presses. Then, you get some guys who, after retiring from college football keep up with bench pressing, by becoming powerlifters, and so powerlifters will have much stronger bench presses than football players. However, powerlifters do tend to train much more intensely than your average recreational badminton player.

  14. #48
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    given the fact that his backhand is one of the best in the world .. its logical to assume that this is related to his forearm strength and that this would be an advantage for the smash also

  15. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by stumblingfeet
    I doubt that BC members could smash harder - remember that smashing hard is a skill that requires an optimized overhead stroke and specific speed-strength in the movements involved.

    However, it is true that theoretically, people could be smashing harder than the pros, it's just that it's unlikely that non-pros have really optimized their stroking techniques. Specific speed-strength could probably be developed to be greater than the pros because professional players need to maintain their stroke variations leading them to train in a way that is not optimized for power generation, but rather the best balance of power and variations.
    haha... u doubting some here aren't u? I bet SirDink can smash way harder than Fu hahaha....

  16. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by wood_22_chuck
    I suppose in normal trash-talking, I hear opponents say "I gonna kick your ass, Dave!" but if I'm playing against cheongsa, I'm betting bottom dollar I'll hear something along the lines of "today, I'm playing my A-game, as I find my applied forces are in phase with the velocity of my oscillators. Watch out!"

    -dave
    p.s. ahhh, smiley
    I generally do not announce my intentions when I step onto the court but I do sometimes predict scores. This is usually when I am playing against a stronger side, and is expecting to lose.

  17. #51
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    There is minimal power without the swing, even for Lin Dan or Taufik. Only when you have a decent swing can you generate a decent power shot.
    In all power strokes, the body weight is taken back sideways on to the rear foot as the racquet swings back. When the racquet starts on the forward swing, the body should be thrust simultaneously upwards and forwards to the right in a strong spiral. As the shuttle is hit, the body is now square (from sideways) to the net and the right foot is moving forward of the left to maintain balance. This spiral swing forward of a 170lbs man obviously imparts power to the stroke and helps the player move into position for his next one.
    But all this is useless without the swing, the mother of all power strokes. Lets give credit where credit is due.

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