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  1. #1
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    Default How to tell partners that this is the right formation for a particular situation?

    This is a problem in MD that I always deal with and makes me frustated because I am always told I am wrong and the opponent gets a point. The problem is with my positioning and rotation and sometimes my choice of shots. This happens with almost everyone I play with.

    This is the situation and what we argue:

    1. I hit down at every chance after a flick serve, my partner stand at the side then the opponent block it to the net, then they got the point, my partner then argues that I should've played a clear instead while I argue he should've been at the front.

    2. The opponent clear to my rear side, I move back and smash, my partner is still at the side, the opponent block to the net, and they got the point. my partner then argues that I should've played a clear instead while I argue he should've been at the front.

    3. I am in an unfavorable position and clear, move to the side, my partner goes to the front and crouch his body, then our opponent smash to the empty side and got the point, my partner then argues that I should've been at the middle while I argue he should've been at the side.

    4. From a side by side position, I managed to do a straight block to the net, I then move forward anticipating a netshot, my partner is still at the side, my opponent then do a straight lift to my rear, I don't move back, my partner is still at the side, the opponents get the point. my partner then argues that I should've move back while I argue he should've covered the rear as I go to the front.

    The time we don't have a debate is when the opponent doesn't get the point, which usually involves some luck and me scrambling to reach the shuttle, where my partner then goes "good, just like that, it's yours" which I can only give a surprised look in exchange.

    sometimes it becomes unbeareble and frustating so it makes me stop the play by hitting the shuttle out or into the net.

    Funnily enough, my partner seems angry if I copy him, especially moving to the front after a clear. its kind of a " Hey, Why don't you try covering the whole court by yourself while I just duck around at the front court"

    so...the bottom line is, what should I do?.

    It's kind of pointless to learn the basic front-rear and side by side formation and how to apply it only to get a partner who doesn't apply it,

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    1. I agree with you. I think it's your partner's responsibility to cover the block to the net. Not sure why he thinks a clear is the proper reply to a flick serve. Depending on the quality of the flick serve, your momentum is already moving back. Makes sense to me that it would save you recovery time to stay and cover the back. I use this strategy (flick serve) to push my opponent who is weaker in the back away from the net.

    2. I agree with you. I am starting to notice a pattern here... Not sure if you can win in MD's by clearing when you're not under pressure.

    3. Agree with you. Seems to me your partner is playing a brand of Bizarro badminton. He's doing everything backwards. Why would he move to the front when he sees you are under pressure and clears? Isn't it a basic tenet in doubles that when the shuttle is high to your opponent, you need to get to a defensive position (side by side)?

    4. I think you're right on this situation as well. (Maybe we should play together?) I think the principle is the player who plays the shot has the initiative since he knows what shot he just hit and is in the best position to judge how to follow up. By you moving to the net after hitting a block, your partner should realize that you're committing to the front and should start moving back to cover you.

    It's almost an automatic move (block to the net, follow up, partner takes rear). I've seen this sequence countless number of time on Youtube. I don't recall seeing a national player block a low shot to the net (which means for a split second his side has the advantage) and then move back and not pressure the net.

    At the risk of being obnoxious, I am not sure what is there to debate. You are correct in all the situations you've raised, at least in my opinion. Have you try to explain the merits and logic of your choice of movement in those scenarios? I am curious to hear his justifications for his play.

    How is your partner's footwork by the way? I am wondering if these are just excuses for covering up lack of ability? In other words, I wonder if the issues you're having with your partner is due to lack of physical ability or it's just because you guys are on different pages?

    PS: I just reread your post and realize THIS HAPPENS TO YOU WITH EVERYONE YOU PLAY WITH?!!!

    And since you play in Indonesia, I am starting to wonder if I've been doing it wrong...
    Last edited by No_footwork; 07-10-2015 at 02:40 PM.

  3. #3
    Regular Member Rob3rt's Avatar
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    I think you're doing the right thing on every point you've made. I would've positioned just like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by opikbidin View Post
    Funnily enough, my partner seems angry if I copy him, especially moving to the front after a clear. its kind of a " Hey, Why don't you try covering the whole court by yourself while I just duck around at the front court"

    so...the bottom line is, what should I do?.
    Maybe change partner?

    What I've noticed, is that when I play with older players most of them like to play a defensive/counter-attacking type of game. They are not fast enough to cover the replies when you go full out attack. Maybe your partner prefers this type of game as well, since he always wants you to play clears.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob3rt View Post

    What I've noticed, is that when I play with older players most of them like to play a defensive/counter-attacking type of game. They are not fast enough to cover the replies when you go full out attack. Maybe your partner prefers this type of game as well, since he always wants you to play clears.
    I don't think I can change partners when almost everyone are like that. Training my partner and introducing the correct way is more viable. and I succeed in some extent for some beginners that I partnered.

    Yes, sometimes it's like that, but many of the young ones also play like that. and for a counter attacking game, at least we should be side by side when defending, not front back.


    Quote Originally Posted by No_footwork View Post
    At the risk of being obnoxious, I am not sure what is there to debate. You are correct in all the situations you've raised, at least in my opinion. Have you try to explain the merits and logic of your choice of movement in those scenarios? I am curious to hear his justifications for his play.

    How is your partner's footwork by the way? I am wondering if these are just excuses for covering up lack of ability? In other words, I wonder if the issues you're having with your partner is due to lack of physical ability or it's just because you guys are on different pages?

    PS: I just reread your post and realize THIS HAPPENS TO YOU WITH EVERYONE YOU PLAY WITH?!!!

    And since you play in Indonesia, I am starting to wonder if I've been doing it wrong...
    the logic they use is just like what Lee jong bak explained in his video about doubles positioning: www.youtube.com/watch?v=k__HuDs_2hE
    and it becomes a useless debate

    Their footwork isn't good, there is no proper footwork. but i got to admit their shots are good, especially the deception shots and net play.

    Just a exaggeration, not everybody plays like that, but at intermediates, many play like that, for beginners, they are just statues at the front court. I think it's just many players at intermediates identify themselves as a back player or front player so they don't know the rotation concept. Incidentally, players that I'm suitable with tend to be all round and fast feet players.

    I really don't know about it. I must also admit I'm thinking the same thing, are the teachings I got from Gollum, LJB and zhao Jianhua are wrong. because the majority of people say I am wrong, only a minority say what I am doing is right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by opikbidin View Post
    Just a exaggeration, not everybody plays like that, but at intermediates, many play like that, for beginners, they are just statues at the front court. I think it's just many players at intermediates identify themselves as a back player or front player so they don't know the rotation concept.
    Oh I see. Just curious, assuming you are also at the intermediate-level, how do you do against players such as your current partner when you team up with someone that has the same idea of rotation as yourself?

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    Quote Originally Posted by No_footwork View Post
    Oh I see. Just curious, assuming you are also at the intermediate-level, how do you do against players such as your current partner when you team up with someone that has the same idea of rotation as yourself?
    I did good, mostly wins, some slight losses.

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    I can sympathize.

    I have played with an (older) experienced club player, and he, more than once, expressed disgust at me replying high clears with drop shots. His rationale was, there's no way for him to know when I would clear or drop, won't be in time to move from side to cover front, so he's more comfortable covering only his side. But it was obvious to me that when I take the opponent's clear, he should think "attack" and move to the front; if I happen to reply with a clear then he should move back to his side. Guess he's just lazy.

    Another time I played with a friend. See sometimes I have this problem of not following through with my net shots, because I often think in "singles" and forget I have a partner. So he compensated me by moving from the back to the front to take the opponents' net reply to my net shots, and split seconds later I realized my mistake and we both rushed to the net, leaving the back all empty. I've asked him not to, let me get in the habit of doing the right thing, and he just argued forgetting about "rules" and compensating me. No dice.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by opikbidin View Post
    I think it's just many players at intermediates identify themselves as a back player or front player so they don't know the rotation concept.
    I wonder if this is a common problem. I've had similar situations where someone new will either ask me or tell me where I should play. My response is usually (if they ask) "that depends". Come to think of it, whenever I have this conversation before the match, we have a lot of breakdowns similar to the ones you've described in your original post.
    Last edited by No_footwork; 07-10-2015 at 08:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by opikbidin View Post
    I did good, mostly wins, some slight losses.
    Good. This confirms that your concept of rotation is valid.

    Have you noticed if the other team also have similar breakdowns in court coverage or maybe what they are doing is just different but equally valid?

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    Quote Originally Posted by No_footwork View Post
    Good. This confirms that your concept of rotation is valid.

    Have you noticed if the other team also have similar breakdowns in court coverage or maybe what they are doing is just different but equally valid?
    Just like me describe the most common situation I encounter as I can't answer your question validly:

    1. If we use a lift/clear to the back when they are on a side by side position , unless it's really high and slow , they will still be side by side and will usually hit a clear again instead of hitting it down.

    2. Hit a clear to the middle at the back when they are side by side, they struggle to get it and hit a clear, now their formation is front-back and should be side by side again after hitting a clear, but they don't, and just smash to the sideline of midcourt. gets a point or a loose return that is easily killed off

    the case is, they really hit so many clears even when it should be hit down, and struggle to change quickly from side-side to front-back

  11. #11
    Regular Member arfandy's Avatar
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    Sadly, most of recreational players do not care about footwork nor position. As long as the bird flies, it makes them happy. Look the bright side, your racket is still alive by the end of game.

  12. #12
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    1. I remembered since years ago my first coach told me many club players didn't do their rotation right, when their partner received flick serve. The proper response for receiver's partner should be to move in tandem with the receiver, covering the front court, rather than waiting till a reply is played then move. So the net result is they either lose the attack or a point out-right.

    2. Same thing here. Your partner should move in tandem with your movement, not after he figures out what you're gonna play.

    3. Now, I'm beginning to wonder if you have all the fun(ny) partners...

    4. You're correct here as well, provided your rushing forward is immediate (no delay). If you're late, it could be confusing, and you could be flicked.

    So what should you do? You may demonstrate to them how you could earn points from them in their mistakes. E.g. simplest one to implement is #2. Instead of partnering with these people, play against them, knowing all their bad responses.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by opikbidin View Post
    This is a problem in MD that I always deal with and makes me frustated because I am always told I am wrong and the opponent gets a point. The problem is with my positioning and rotation and sometimes my choice of shots. This happens with almost everyone I play with.

    This is the situation and what we argue:

    1. I hit down at every chance after a flick serve, my partner stand at the side then the opponent block it to the net, then they got the point, my partner then argues that I should've played a clear instead while I argue he should've been at the front.

    Hitting down is correct but do it to the side nearer your partner so that he has less area to cover. Asking you to cover while he remain on his side means he wants to play "singles in doubles" or thats what he thinks doubles should be play.

    2. The opponent clear to my rear side, I move back and smash, my partner is still at the side, the opponent block to the net, and they got the point. my partner then argues that I should've played a clear instead while I argue he should've been at the front.

    Again bring it down nearer to him and again he wants to play singles in doubles.

    3. I am in an unfavorable position and clear, move to the side, my partner goes to the front and crouch his body, then our opponent smash to the empty side and got the point, my partner then argues that I should've been at the middle while I argue he should've been at the side.

    What you did it right. He wanted to play mix doubles in that instant BUT its not a MD game.

    4. From a side by side position, I managed to do a straight block to the net, I then move forward anticipating a netshot, my partner is still at the side, my opponent then do a straight lift to my rear, I don't move back, my partner is still at the side, the opponents get the point. my partner then argues that I should've move back while I argue he should've covered the rear as I go to the front.

    You're right. Again he reverted to singles doubles.

    The time we don't have a debate is when the opponent doesn't get the point, which usually involves some luck and me scrambling to reach the shuttle, where my partner then goes "good, just like that, it's yours" which I can only give a surprised look in exchange.

    You have been kind to give a surprise look. Others may not be that nice.

    sometimes it becomes unbeareble and frustating so it makes me stop the play by hitting the shuttle out or into the net.

    Understand how you feel and what you're going through. We all have one way or another partner some weird chaps in our life in badminton for lack of a better description, makes you feel like you've done a great sin in your previous life to be in this situation.

    Funnily enough, my partner seems angry if I copy him, especially moving to the front after a clear. its kind of a " Hey, Why don't you try covering the whole court by yourself while I just duck around at the front court"

    so...the bottom line is, what should I do?.

    Bottom line is he's an AH........what you should do is not to partner him anymore or choose to continue and get over with his blame game.

    It's kind of pointless to learn the basic front-rear and side by side formation and how to apply it only to get a partner who doesn't apply it,
    Correct unless you're prepare to play singles double.

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    Quote Originally Posted by No_footwork View Post
    PS: I just reread your post and realize THIS HAPPENS TO YOU WITH EVERYONE YOU PLAY WITH?!!!

    And since you play in Indonesia, I am starting to wonder if I've been doing it wrong...
    That's a good one. I've to wonder about it too, now that you bring this up...

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    Show him some videos of professional players in action and point out that you don't constantly clear in MD and you need to rotate.

    The most depressing thing is when a new partner says do you play front and back or sides.

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    Quote Originally Posted by darrengsaw View Post
    The most depressing thing is when a new partner says do you play front and back or sides.
    For the fun of it, I should say this to a newly pick-up partner, and watch his/her face.

  17. #17
    Regular Member visor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by opikbidin View Post
    so...the bottom line is, what should I do?.
    Pretty clear isn't it?
    Get a new partner...

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