Cai Yun ( 蔡赟 ) and Fu Haifeng ( 傅海峰 )

[j4ckie]

I would recommend you learn English before arguing further, fortune. I did not compare #1 and #8 (Cai/Fu were #2, btw). I simply said that the #2's performance was so good that they went through the match quickly and saved energy.
Neither did I call you stupid at any point (I claimed one of your arguments to be stupid). Stop mentioning sth that isnt true.

Anyhow, your whole argument is based on two hypotheses: a) that the Danes were in fact extemely tired, which can arguably be doubted (while they may not have been at 100%, they will have recovered as well as possible) and b) that in better shape, they would have gotten 50-60% more smash winners.
While hypothesis a) is an exaggeration, but might essentially be true (they might've been a little more tired than the Chinese), hypothesis b) is without any doubt wrong. Why would they have gotten so many more smash winners if they were in better physical shape? They lost most of the serve-return game, got few lifts, and actually did the best they could with what they got. However, they were just not good enough to create more attacking opportunities. Your whole hypothesis is based on the assumption that in better physical shape they would've gotten over 50% more attacking opportunities. That would not have happened. Cai/Fu were better in the serve/return situation, and that had nothing whatsoever to do with physical fitness. They also blew BoMo out of the water concerning flat, fast, drive-based game which occurs when both teams refuse to lift - BoMo were so afraid of Fu's attack that they rather tried to win an uphill battle in flat rallies than give him the opportunity to smash. The Chinese, however, were perfectly comfortable playing a game where they were superior, so they didn't see the need to lift too often.

Oh, and how does your whole 'extremely tired'-idea hold up to the fact that CM smashed hard until the very end? If he had in fact been so tired that he could not smash properly anymore, wouldn't anyone have noticed? Gill Clark, who has without a shadow of a doubt more experience in the sport than any of us, commented that the Danes were outclassed and that it was nearly a bit of a shame this final couldn't be as exciting and thrilling as the others because it was a "master class" by the Chinese.


I'm growing tired of you repeating your argument over and over again despite how many times it's been proven to be wrong, btw. Everyone else agrees that there's no way professional sportsmen are extremely tired when competing the same way as usual (no day of rest between matches). Why can't you just accept that? The way you argue makes it seem like you're a die-hard fan of the Danish combination and not the Chinese as you claim

[Justin L]

One day rest is good to have but not essential. A top athlete if he wants to be the best must be prepared for the worse case scenario as far as fitness and stamina are concerned. If a contestant feels tired and a rest day is given whether by arrangement or stroke of luck, consider that a bonus; if not available,he still has to be prepared for battle. That, to me, is the hallmark of a true champion.

As we know fitness can be trained by anyone who is dedicated and hardworking but less so is skills training; even more so natural talent which different person is gifted to varying degrees though it has often been said that hard work can make up for lack of talent. So whatever it is, a professional player will never allow himself to be handicapped by lack of fitness, esp for those with inferior or insufficient talents.

About the rest day advantage, I have another thinking. I feel that it's more mental than physical. Mental weariness or unpreparedness affects the body much more than the other way round. Those cases you quoted I am inclined to view them as illustrations of this principle. In other words, to a player who is mentally strong, motivated,self-confident and possesses inner self-belief, that one day rest or lack thereof shouldn't make much of a difference, at least it won't be so significant as to be a decisive factor.

Haven't we heard of contests where a particular contestant seems to be labouring under difficult conditions or struggling against all odds particularly in the physical aspect but finally managing to overcome it by sheer willpower and determination? For this I need not provide illustrative examples for I believe we all have our own story to tell.

Simply put, if you're mentally tired, even if you're fairly strong and unstretched bodily you'll still feel drained,spent,exhausted. Conversely, a mentally 'high' person, self-driven, spirited is undeterred and ever ready to go on, and actually will make it through without showing noticeable signs of fatigue. This might sound cliched, an oversimplification, a truism but that's how I view it.

As an analogy, when a player says he's tired he may mean he's been playing too much badminton and just wants a break - this isn't the same as saying, in that match he was too weak to play from lack of rest. As we all know, professional players regularly train 7-8 hours a day, so what is an hour or more match a day; of course,tournament condition is different but it's more to do with the added mental stress than the physical demand which they can cope, barring injury.

It's your prerogative to use those examples to argue your case. Similarly,allow me the same privilege to quote your example to argue otherwise. For example, the case where Sony D K had 5-6 days rest for his SF Sudirman Cup'05 match while the Koreans had 3-4, slightly less for their next match - you used this two examples to conclude that the long break facilitated their subsequent victories. The problem is assertion is not the same as proof. How do you prove the number of days rest was what contributed to their wins - what if they'd lost? Surely there are cases where a player/team with rest day(s) went on to lose.

Another point I want to reiterate as I've said this elsewhere is: if a day's rest is necessary and advantageous, why are qualifiers at SS/GPG tournaments required to play two matches a day and immediately scheduled to play the next day if they qualify into the main draw, and that against higher-ranked opponents who start fresh in round one?

As an aside, frankly I'm impressed with your ability to call forth so much data,facts and figures to back up your arguments although I don't necessarily always agree with your judgements and conclusions. Your doing so must have caused you considerable research effort, possibly tedious and painstaking work unless you have special means or access to resources not widely available to most of us or maybe you posses a secret technique(?). Needles to say, without questioning their veracity, many of us reading your posts would have indirectly derived benefits from them in terms of details and knowledge gained, thanks to you.

My parting shot: I can confidently say, Bo/Mo with or without the one day rest will probably lose to Cai/Fu at the LOG Final assuming they all play at or near their best. A subjective claim nonetheless.

[Justin L]

One day rest is good to have but not essential. A top athlete if he wants to be the best must be prepared for the worse case scenario as far as fitness and stamina are concerned. If a contestant feels tired and a rest day is given whether by arrangement or stroke of luck, consider that a bonus; if not available,he still has to be prepared for battle. That, to me, is the hallmark of a true champion.

Sorry,a typo error significant enough to make amendment (if very minor I won't bother): para.1 - ... the worst case scenario....

[Fortune]

Enough with the extremely tired. They weren't. End of story.

Imop, he played very well from the back and there was absolutely NO sign of fatigue with either of the Danes. They were outpaced, had the worse serve-return game and just could not stand up to the fired up Chinese.

No sign of fatigue after playing for 81 mintues ? Do you think they just walk around for 81 minutes ? If they play like the 4 pairs in WD, yes, I agree they are not tired.

The competition was not tougher than any other SS tournament, where no one ever stated they were 'extremely tired' in the final. Cut the crap.

So you wanna say the preparation of all players / pairs in OG is the same when they prepare for SS events ? What a joke hahaha

Also, why would you assume that they would've won this if they had been in slightly better shape? They have a very bad H2H against Cai/Fu and have never been able to go the same pace as them. They few times they won they did because they managed to slow the game down to their fav. pace.

Only slightly better shape ? So according to you, the 81 minutes of SF duel didn't make significant impact for them ??? Even 2 times World champion Nova needs one day rest for stamina recovery after 32 minutes of duel

Also, the better smash is definitely Fu.

Yeah, all of us already know Fu has the fastest smash in the world, but BoMo also not far behind. In their first duel, China Masters 07, Cai/Fu can make 14 smash winners vs 3. But when the Danes already know Cai/Fu style, they are almost pretty even. In the other 7 duels, only 3 smash winners (138 vs 135) separates Cai/Fu and Bo/Mo. Read once again, only 3 within 7 duels.

While Mogensen is a great back court player he can not hold a candle to Fu concerning penetration and smashing power. He's very good at keeping the attack, but the only thing that stupid 60% smash winner statistic shows is that Cai/Fu were defending high rather than give Boe any chance to kill it at the net and sometimes ended up short.

The only stupid thing is BoMo can fires 28 smash winners against Jung/Lee (when both pairs are very fit, and LYD focus only in MD for the last 2 - 3 days). And as far as I know, Cai/Fu defence is not as solid as Jung/Lee. That's the reason why I said BoMo can win if they are fit, as they already proved in the SF when they win against World #1 and clear favorite Jung/Lee.

A day of rest would NOT have transformed Mogensen into an all-day smashing machine.

A day of rest already enough for BoMo to beat Jung/Lee...thanks to 28 smash winners, against the pair that has the most solid defence in the world in the last 2 - 3 years. After playing for 70 minutes, BoMo still can make 2 - 3 smash winners. Really different with final, especially in the second set.

They also snatched at a couple shots at the net, which is a sign of nerves, not fatigue.

When you are extremely tired, it is very likely to do more mistakes.

Now stop hallucinating about any what-if scenario and face that the Danes were never anywhere close to beating the Chinese, whether they had 1 day of rest or 500.

It seems that you don't know much about rest days. Rest for 3 months (+/- 90 days) is not good for your performance, not to mention the 500 days. Cai/Fu can slaughtered BoMo if the Danes rest for 500 days LOL . 500 days of rest is bad for everyone lol . About 1 rest day ? I think it is not my hallucination, as BoMo can beat the world #1

[Fortune]

I would recommend you learn English before arguing further, fortune.I did not compare #1 and #8 (Cai/Fu were #2, btw). I simply said that the #2's performance was so good that they went through the match quickly and saved energy.

I know my English not so good, but I can clearly understand what you mean. I would recommend you to improve your logic before arguing further, j4ckie. Koo/Tan is not in the same level as the other 3 (this is your own words)...means an easier opponent, that's why Cai/Fu can win it quickly...,while BoMo facing the toughest opponent, even stronger than Cai/Fu, no wonder if the match going into rubber sets, and finished more than 80 minutes. If Jung/Lee = world #9, yes...it can compare...I'm agree with you, it was BoMo's fault. But now, you are comparing #1 and #8. What a joke hahaha

Neither did I call you stupid at any point (I claimed one of your arguments to be stupid). Stop mentioning sth that isnt true.

I just wanna say, if you are not smart enough, never say stupid to others

Anyhow, your whole argument is based on two hypotheses: a) that the Danes were in fact extemely tired, which can arguably be doubted (while they may not have been at 100%, they will have recovered as well as possible)

Even Nova needs one day rest after 32 minutes duel. So 81 minutes duel doesn't need one day rest ? How about the comment of Park Joo Bong and Taufik ? Can you explain ?

While hypothesis a) is an exaggeration, but might essentially be true (they might've been a little more tired than the Chinese)

Cai/Fu only plays for 36 minutes, BoMo for 81 minutes (longer more than twice), so this is called a little more tired ?

and b) that in better shape, they would have gotten 50-60% more smash winners

hypothesis b) is without any doubt wrong. Why would they have gotten so many more smash winners if they were in better physical shape?

When both pairs are very fit, BoMo can win against Jung/Lee. While they are extremely tired, they can give a good fight vs Cai/Fu

They lost most of the serve-return game, got few lifts, and actually did the best they could with what they got. However, they were just not good enough to create more attacking opportunities.

When you are extremely tired, most of your shots going into the wrong direction.

Your whole hypothesis is based on the assumption that in better physical shape they would've gotten over 50% more attacking opportunities. That would not have happened. Cai/Fu were better in the serve/return situation, and that had nothing whatsoever to do with physical fitness. They also blew BoMo out of the water concerning flat, fast, drive-based game which occurs when both teams refuse to lift - BoMo were so afraid of Fu's attack that they rather tried to win an uphill battle in flat rallies than give him the opportunity to smash. The Chinese, however, were perfectly comfortable playing a game where they were superior, so they didn't see the need to lift too often.

Oh, and how does your whole 'extremely tired'-idea hold up to the fact that CM smashed hard until the very end? If he had in fact been so tired that he could not smash properly anymore, wouldn't anyone have noticed? Gill Clark, who has without a shadow of a doubt more experience in the sport than any of us, commented that the Danes were outclassed and that it was nearly a bit of a shame this final couldn't be as exciting and thrilling as the others because it was a "master class" by the Chinese.

I didn't notice about Gill Clark comment. I only concetrate to watch the game. And even she not mention about extremely tired, doesn't mean BoMo not extremely tired. Maybe she is trying to pleased the China fans that are "tired" already with her anti-China comment as usual

I'm growing tired of you repeating your argument over and over again despite how many times it's been proven to be wrong, btw. Everyone else agrees that there's no way professional sportsmen are extremely tired when competing the same way as usual (no day of rest between matches). Why can't you just accept that? The way you argue makes it seem like you're a die-hard fan of the Danish combination and not the Chinese as you claim

Have you seen my previous post about China players ?

[Fortune]

Besides, a day's rest whether entitled to by the format or given due to walkover is not necessarily a good thing. It disrupts your momentum and breaks the high that you've built up, doing more harm than good.

One day rest is good to have but not essential.

I'm confused. So actually, the one day rest is good or not, my friend ?

[Fortune]

Post # 1620 :

When you are extremely tired, most of your shots going into the wrong direction.

Edit : when you are extremely tired, your accuracy of shots drops drastically

[lavac]

needs moar extremely tired

[Justin L]

Ahh yes,my friend, on the surface you seem to have caught me contradicting myself but allow me to say that's because you inadvertently quoted me out of context.

My first post #1612 stated that it isn't necessarily a good thing...disrupts the momentum...doing more harm than good.

My second post #1617, after the sentence you quoted, I went on at length about the mental aspect being much more important and so on and so forth, downplaying the significance of rest day(s). To recap, I was actually saying the rest day advantage is more of the mind than the body and that practically every professional athlete is able to cope with the physical demands of their sport, only fearing injury.

To add, I don't remember any world class player attributing their defeat to fatigue or conversely their victory to having rest day(s). I recall someone mentioning WSX once complained of tiredness (not sure in the mental or physical sense) to her coach ZN after losing to Lu Lan in the Asia BC 2011 and was roundly berated for her poor excuse.(I admit I'm not able to verify that incident).

I would also say Bo/Mo after their resounding triumph over Chung/Lee in the LOG SF must be feeling elated and supercharged to take on Cai/Fu knowing they are at least assured of silver; therefore feeling too tired to play ought to be the last thing on their minds;on the contrary,they should be raring to go. Simply put, I doubt they were mentally nor physically too tired when playing Cai/Fu.

Nevertheless, let's agree to disagree. Thanks for the exchange of views.

[Fortune]

One day rest is good to have but not essential. A top athlete if he wants to be the best must be prepared for the worse case scenario as far as fitness and stamina are concerned. If a contestant feels tired and a rest day is given whether by arrangement or stroke of luck, consider that a bonus; if not available,he still has to be prepared for battle. That, to me, is the hallmark of a true champion.

If I'm not wrong, every player / pair want to avoid the toughest opponent until the final, so they can go all out, in order to win the match and also the title. If they meet in SF or before, this is the consequences : tired or even extremely tired for the next match, which can reduce your chance to win the title.

As we know fitness can be trained by anyone who is dedicated and hardworking but less so is skills training; even more so natural talent which different person is gifted to varying degrees though it has often been said that hard work can make up for lack of talent. So whatever it is, a professional player will never allow himself to be handicapped by lack of fitness, esp for those with inferior or insufficient talents.

Jung/Lee or Cai/Fu was tired or extremely tired, they still have a chance to win against BoMo. But if BoMo was extremely tired, it is game over.

About the rest day advantage, I have another thinking. I feel that it's more mental than physical. Mental weariness or unpreparedness affects the body much more than the other way round. Those cases you quoted I am inclined to view them as illustrations of this principle. In other words, to a player who is mentally strong, motivated,self-confident and possesses inner self-belief, that one day rest or lack thereof shouldn't make much of a difference, at least it won't be so significant as to be a decisive factor.

I think the comment from Nova is clear : "luckily we have one rest day for stamina recovery before competing". From this statement, I think it is physical

As an analogy, when a player says he's tired he may mean he's been playing too much badminton and just wants a break - this isn't the same as saying, in that match he was too weak to play from lack of rest. As we all know, professional players regularly train 7-8 hours a day, so what is an hour or more match a day; of course,tournament condition is different but it's more to do with the added mental stress than the physical demand which they can cope, barring injury.

Taufik, Nova, and Park Joo Bong squads are regularly train for 7 - 8 hours, but they are tired (after playing more than 65 or 70 minutes) and need one day rest to perform well in the next match. The reason ? I don't know. I have to ask them first before I can answer it.

It's your prerogative to use those examples to argue your case. Similarly,allow me the same privilege to quote your example to argue otherwise. For example, the case where Sony D K had 5-6 days rest for his SF Sudirman Cup'05 match while the Koreans had 3-4, slightly less for their next match - you used this two examples to conclude that the long break facilitated their subsequent victories. The problem is assertion is not the same as proof. How do you prove the number of days rest was what contributed to their wins - what if they'd lost? Surely there are cases where a player/team with rest day(s) went on to lose.

Indonesia still do the same thing if they played against China in the group stage, from UC 1996, SC 05, SC 09, TC & UC 2012. I don't think that the Indonesian coach are very stupid as they failed all of them except UC 96 ? Are they very stupid ? I don't think so. Korea do the same in SC 09. So Korea coach is stupid ? I don't think so.

Another point I want to reiterate as I've said this elsewhere is: if a day's rest is necessary and advantageous, why are qualifiers at SS/GPG tournaments required to play two matches a day and immediately scheduled to play the next day if they qualify into the main draw, and that against higher-ranked opponents who start fresh in round one?

For SS events, I think it is just temporary. If a player / pair successfully being ranked no 25 or 26, I think they don't need to play from the qualification stage, right ? However, if we want to make it fair for everyone, then the 1st seed has to play 6 matches to win the title, compare only 5 matches in SS. Which one do you prefer ?

My parting shot: I can confidently say, Bo/Mo with or without the one day rest will probably lose to Cai/Fu at the LOG Final assuming they all play at or near their best. A subjective claim nonetheless.

we have different opinion.

[Fortune]

Nevertheless, let's agree to disagree. Thanks for the exchange of views.

Thanks...

[Cheung]

A brief synopsis of fatigue

http://jap.physiology.org/content/104/5/1541

Given the complex redundancy in most biological systems, it is unlikely that a single locus or mechanism will explain fatigue and exercise limitation under all conditions. Later this year, we will no doubt enjoy the quadrennial Olympic festival of sports and marvel at the athletic achievements on display. They will provide great entertainment and enjoyment, but perhaps also stimulate our physiological curiosity in trying to understand just how they were achieved.

I have no doubt those athletes are at their near physical peak at the Olympics. It's extremely difficult to measure the mental fatigue. An athlete may not even recognise the mental fatigue in themselves.

[Justin L]

A brief synopsis of fatigue

http://jap.physiology.org/content/104/5/1541



I have no doubt those athletes are at their near physical peak at the Olympics. It's extremely difficult to measure the mental fatigue. An athlete may not even recognise the mental fatigue in themselves.

A very interesting,insightful synopsis from the scientific perspective, thanks for the introduction,Cheung.

IMHO, science itself, as always and widely held, can be very advanced as far as the physical or physiological aspects are concerned but not when human affairs are involved such as in the social sciences, psychology, psychoanalysis or dealing with the emotions or what we call the 'mind' (as distinct from the human brain).

Even in medical science, the brain and its central nervous system is the last frontier of the human body yet to be conquered; there's much that we still don't know about it unlike the rest of the body, something neuro-scientists and neurologists in general admit as much but you don't expect them to tell their patients/subjects,thereby exposing their ignorance. Pardon me if I sound presumptuous for expressing my layman's view.

In that article you linked,let me highlight the following extract I deem worthy of our attention - note the word "psyche" (in psychology it refers to the human mind) is put in inverted commas in a way acknowledging that science has no definitive knowledge of it yet:

"... There can be little doubt that the regulation of central motor output is crucial in determining exercise performance. The great Finnish runner Paavo Nurmi stated �Mind is everything, muscle pieces of rubber. All that I am, I am because of my mind.� The strong motivation for success, coupled with the fatigue resistance obtained through years of intense training, no doubt contributes to the outstanding athletic feats so often observed in the sporting arena. But there can be a fine line between glory and catastrophe, with this same motivation sometimes pushing athletes beyond the limits that fatigue might have ordinarily imposed. Understanding the complex links between the �psyche� and neuromuscular activation is a challenge for the future...." (End of extract).

And, mind you (pun unintended), we aren't talking about mind-altering drugs or anabolic steroids as they are still within the domains of physiology not the 'mind' or 'psyche' as in the sense of "mind over matter". Being no expert, I shan't say more except to express some evocative thoughts.

[CanucksDynasty]

Could've, would've, should've. Life's not fair. Take the hand you're dealt and deal with it. Fact is...the best team won. End of story.

[SibugiChai]

is cai yun official retire now ???

[Siu Feng]

no photo for their Olympic 2012?

[george@chongwei]

is cai yun official retire now ???

It seems like they are going to denmark for the denmark ss...