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    Default Indo mixed double

    I have always been wondering why there are no great
    XD pairs from Indo in the last 20 years (don't know anything
    about earlier years). They have fantastic MD all the time,
    and their WD were OK in the 90s.

    Another thing is that seems very few Indo MD player plays
    XD seriously. Is it because style or something? Nova's technique
    seems way cruder than Candra/Sigit/Gunawan/Halim etc.
    It really seems to me that if pairing up Candra and Lilyana,
    Indo would have a better XD pair than the current one.

    Compare to Korea. They also have great MD players, and
    their MD players are quite successful in XD.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333
    I have always been wondering why there are no great
    XD pairs from Indo in the last 20 years (don't know anything
    about earlier years). They have fantastic MD all the time,
    and their WD were OK in the 90s.

    Another thing is that seems very few Indo MD player plays
    XD seriously. Is it because style or something? Nova's technique
    seems way cruder than Candra/Sigit/Gunawan/Halim etc.
    It really seems to me that if pairing up Candra and Lilyana,
    Indo would have a better XD pair than the current one.

    Compare to Korea. They also have great MD players, and
    their MD players are quite successful in XD.
    At the 2000 Olympic Games, Timur and Trikus were seeded first. Though I have not been following their exploits before that, they must have been really good to earn that seeding.

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    Well, although they are seeded No.1, according to some games (not
    the Olympic one) I saw, they are no where near the level of Kim/Ra.
    furthermore, part of my question is that why the best Indo MD players
    are not in the XD circuit...
    Quote Originally Posted by cheongsa
    At the 2000 Olympic Games, Timur and Trikus were seeded first. Though I have not been following their exploits before that, they must have been really good to earn that seeding.

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    I believe that should end now with Widianto Nova/Lilyana Nasir whom I think has a great potential to lift Indonesian XD to higher levels, challenging the powerhouses of Korea, China and Denmark.

    I'm not making this assumption based on the WC2005 win alone - I have seen them playing in a few recent matches except the most and I must say they are the most balanced XD pair I have seen in recent years, even more balanced I dare say against the legendary Kim/Ra.

    They no longer stick strictly to the stereotype of 'woman front, guy back' in XD but are rather equal in both positions - Nasir is no lady who is scared of giving a good smash and dead precise drops from the back, while Nova is just as good at the net as his partner is.

    I have high hopes for these two and they are still young, so much potential.
    I erm.. hope.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333
    Well, although they are seeded No.1, according to some games (not
    the Olympic one) I saw, they are no where near the level of Kim/Ra.
    furthermore, part of my question is that why the best Indo MD players
    are not in the XD circuit...
    i think Trikus/Timur are quite good pair.....
    and i read in indo newspaper...after Nova/Natsir won the WC...that indo has won XD WC before in arround 70's......
    the reason why the MD player dont play in XD becuase MD is the priority...unless they dont do well in MD...then they'll play XD......

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    Well there are quite a few "balanced" pairs nowadays, e.g.,
    Nova/Lilyana, Sudket/Saralee from thailand, Laybourn/Juhl
    from Denmark. Also, in the late 80s, ?/Verawati often take
    a guy-front/girl-back formation. However, the reason, it
    seems to me, is that the guys are not as good as KDM,
    Thomas Lund or PJB in controlling the game and creating
    chances for the girl at net. (In the latter cases, Verawati
    and Juhl are very tall and powerful, so their smashes can
    really kill).

    Also, if you watch Kim/Ra game, you will see that Ra does not
    really STAY at the net. They rotate quite frequently. I think
    the only pair that stick to the traditional formation is Zhang/Gao,
    sometimes they would even switch position after Zhang Jun put
    a net drop, i.e., Gao Ling rush forward and Zhang Jun rush backward.

    Anyway, I still think the games of Kim/Ra and Park/Chung are the
    ones that XD should be played like. :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by wilfredlgf
    I believe that should end now with Widianto Nova/Lilyana Nasir whom I think has a great potential to lift Indonesian XD to higher levels, challenging the powerhouses of Korea, China and Denmark.

    I'm not making this assumption based on the WC2005 win alone - I have seen them playing in a few recent matches except the most and I must say they are the most balanced XD pair I have seen in recent years, even more balanced I dare say against the legendary Kim/Ra.

    They no longer stick strictly to the stereotype of 'woman front, guy back' in XD but are rather equal in both positions - Nasir is no lady who is scared of giving a good smash and dead precise drops from the back, while Nova is just as good at the net as his partner is.

    I have high hopes for these two and they are still young, so much potential.
    I erm.. hope.
    Last edited by ye333; 09-16-2005 at 12:40 PM.

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    It seems the best MD players in all other countries do
    XD... China maybe another exception, but Chinese MD
    are not very good anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by udin_udik
    i think Trikus/Timur are quite good pair.....
    and i read in indo newspaper...after Nova/Natsir won the WC...that indo has won XD WC before in arround 70's......
    the reason why the MD player dont play in XD becuase MD is the priority...unless they dont do well in MD...then they'll play XD......

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    Quote Originally Posted by wilfredlgf
    I believe that should end now with Widianto Nova/Lilyana Nasir whom I think has a great potential to lift Indonesian XD to higher levels, challenging the powerhouses of Korea, China and Denmark.

    I have high hopes for these two and they are still young, so much potential.
    I erm.. hope.
    Hmm...Nova is already pretty old (28 this year), while Butet is indeed a very promising player. However, despite their no 1 rank, they only managed to win 1 title this year (World Championships). I hope they can win the Indonesia Open and perhaps 1-2 more titles this year.

    The top 5-6 pairs in XD are definitely equal in terms of skill. They have beaten each other in recent tournaments and it will be hard to say who is the best. I used to think Zhang Jun/Gao Ling are the most balanced pair, but, their performances in recent months are not that convincing.

    In terms of prospect, I would say that Lee Jae Jin/Lee Hyo Jung (22/24) is the most promising pair because of their younger age and the fact that both are also accomplished players in MD and WD. They are paired up in less than 1 year and yet they already won 4 titles this year (Korean Open, Malaysia Open, German Open, and Thailand Open). Sudket/Saralee is also showing an improvement this year with victories at the Asian Championships and Japan Open.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333
    Well, although they are seeded No.1, according to some games (not
    the Olympic one) I saw, they are no where near the level of Kim/Ra.
    furthermore, part of my question is that why the best Indo MD players
    are not in the XD circuit...
    A quick reason may be that you need two to tango... the Indonesian women doubles players will need to raise their general level, before it is profitable to match them up with the men's doubles player.

    Another, and perhaps more important to the coaching staff, is that playing in two disciplines will affect the players' chance of going deep in either discipline.

    I think we all saw Lee Jae Jin overstretched during WC 05 playing both. Kim Dong Moon is different, since he is already one class above in MD. In fact, I have never seen him tired on court. Ha Tae Kwon, yes, but never Kim Dong Moon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333
    Compare to Korea. They also have great MD players, and
    their MD players are quite successful in XD.
    Only a few Korean MD players have really done anything in XD to speak of. Ha Tae-kwon was paired with the Ra Kyung-min's partner, Lee Kyung-won, several times but didn't do anything spectacular. Similarly, does anyone remember any XD results being posted by Lee Dong-soo, Kim Moon-soo, Yoo Yong-sung, or Jung Jae-sung? All top MD players. And this is in Korea where you have proven women's players.

    I think Cheongsa might have it with the point about the quality of the Indonesian women's doubles players. Remember that Nova was in a solid 2nd-tier pair when he was playing with Vita Marissa. He's been a contender ever since Lilyana came along. It wasn't just Kim/Ra that he and Vita couldn't beat. There were several top pairs that they couldn't get past.

    I agree that Kim and Park seemed to be a whole different level. They proved they could win with several different partners. With everyone else, it seems that chemistry is extremely important. In Korea, they have lots of strong women to choose from so the chances of finding a pair that clicks is high. Indonesia's case is not that different from Malaysia's. In Malaysia, you are just starting to see some women breaking into the second tier in doubles and the mixed doubles are looking a little more promising, even with their top MD players not participating.

    The interesting thing about Nova is that I don't remember him ever playing MD. That wasn't true of Trikus. His pairing with Sigit prior to Athens was only the most recent.

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    Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

    Natsir needs a better partner

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave_Turtle
    Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

    Natsir needs a better partner
    Widianto actually has exceptional racket skills that I'd put above Wijaya or Budiarto. But he does lose out by some way to them in terms of the more physical capabilities like speed, power, etc.
    Still, players have proven that technique can prevail over power-play in doubles, otherwise Fu/Cai and Zhang/Gao would be winning everything in their respective disciplines.

    Overall, Widianto may not be as good as Chandra or Sigit, but I think it's a fantastic balance with Natsir. I'd like to see them stick together for a few more years. If they got a power-player to replace Widianto anytime soon, I fear they will become like Fu/Cai where they play so fast that they often get ahead of themselves and become inconsistent from match to match.

    An under-powered KDM is the best analogy I can come up with right now.

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    That's a rather harsh comment. What is your definition of a 'better' partner for Natsir?
    Quote Originally Posted by Brave_Turtle
    Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

    Natsir needs a better partner

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    But Korean top MD players all tried in XD. And this continues to be the case, since Lee Jae Jin seems serious in XD. Due to the difference between the two, of course some of them would prove to be not fit in XD. For example, I believe Sigit would totally fail if he tries XD. But the question is strategy and placement players like tony gunawan also never touched XD (b4 he came to US). Any one disagree that Natsir/Gunawan would beat Natsir/Widiato?

    Also, I think you don't need a good women squad to obtain good XD pairs. For example, Indo WD now is much worse than their WD in the 90s (e.g. Eliza/Zelin can sometimes win one game from the formidable Ge/Gu, can you imagine any Indo WD pair getting more than 5 pts from Gao/Huang or Zhang/Yang now? ), but Lilyana is for sure a better XD player than either Timur or Vita.

    Quote Originally Posted by event
    Only a few Korean MD players have really done anything in XD to speak of. Ha Tae-kwon was paired with the Ra Kyung-min's partner, Lee Kyung-won, several times but didn't do anything spectacular. Similarly, does anyone remember any XD results being posted by Lee Dong-soo, Kim Moon-soo, Yoo Yong-sung, or Jung Jae-sung? All top MD players. And this is in Korea where you have proven women's players.

    I think Cheongsa might have it with the point about the quality of the Indonesian women's doubles players. Remember that Nova was in a solid 2nd-tier pair when he was playing with Vita Marissa. He's been a contender ever since Lilyana came along. It wasn't just Kim/Ra that he and Vita couldn't beat. There were several top pairs that they couldn't get past.

    I agree that Kim and Park seemed to be a whole different level. They proved they could win with several different partners. With everyone else, it seems that chemistry is extremely important. In Korea, they have lots of strong women to choose from so the chances of finding a pair that clicks is high. Indonesia's case is not that different from Malaysia's. In Malaysia, you are just starting to see some women breaking into the second tier in doubles and the mixed doubles are looking a little more promising, even with their top MD players not participating.

    The interesting thing about Nova is that I don't remember him ever playing MD. That wasn't true of Trikus. His pairing with Sigit prior to Athens was only the most recent.
    Last edited by ye333; 09-19-2005 at 12:40 PM.

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    I think it sould be "Widiato is .... Sigit if he plays MD".

    Tend to agree Natsir deserves a better partner. But currently few XD male players are actually better than Widiato. Maybe the only choice is Nathan Robertson? He deserves a better female partner anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brave_Turtle
    Widianto is just nowhere near Candra or Sigit.

    Natsir needs a better partner

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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333
    I think it sould be "Widiato is .... Sigit if he plays MD".

    Tend to agree Natsir deserves a better partner. But currently few XD male players are actually better than Widiato. Maybe the only choice is Nathan Robertson? He deserves a better female partner anyway.
    Maybe it's just because Natsir is too good so Widianto looks less good.....Natsir rocks !!!!

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    I think very few Indonesian top players would like to play XD. It's either MD or MS. Indeed the mentality has to be changed. XD is somewhat "dipandang sebelah mata" (not taken seriously).

    I remember reading in newspaper the event when Bambang Suprianto has decided to play XD. Bambang was a good MS player, but at that time we have a lot of good MS players. So Bambang decided to leave MS and play XD. Even his coach --or PBSI-- questioned his decision. "Do you really want to play XD?!"

    Nova Widianto started his career as an MS player too. But he realized as a single player he would not go so far, so he switch to XD. And he does it well so far...

    With this mentality, I think it's only a dream to see Lilyana pairing with Chandra or other top MD players. But who knows....
    Last edited by Ningtyas; 09-19-2005 at 10:39 PM.

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