Pause in the serve

[Gollum]

LOGIC 101 - how abstract

Try this on for size:

"Anything is provable from a contradiction."

Obscure technical explanation

More precisely:

Given a formal language L1 that is expressively adequate and sound, and a sentence P equivalent to the sentence (A ^ ¬ A) in the language L of propositional calculus, it follows that P entails X for all sentences X in L1.

I think I've set that up right. Soundness might not be necessary, but I threw it in for good measure Besides, languages that are not sound are not of much interest.

(Erm....and maybe I should say "formula" instead of "sentence".)

For example, this is a valid argument:

Premise -- Grass is green and grass is not green.
Conclusion -- London is in France.

It's stupid, but completely valid.

[event]

I understand that some countries have a locally-authorised interpretation of the law that say - for convenience use the level of the elbow to indicate the top of the waist.

It is only an interpretation, though. The law talks only about the waist, which is normally agreed to be below the level of the bottom rib, and the elbow is, strictly speaking, irrelevant. Elbow height and bottom rib do not always coincide.

The elbow, as a locally authorised interpretation, is irrelevant. Okay, but the waist being "normally agreed to be below the level of the bottom rib" is also an interpretation and I've never seen that in the rules, either. The point is that the rules are vague and any interpretation is just an interpretation. I have given up trying to ask opponents to enforce this rule because it is so loosely interpreted that the pros regularly have ridiculously high serves. Tell me how the serve in this photo, to take a random example, is below his ribcage, elbow height, navel, or anything else that might count as a waist. Is it just me or others concur with this observation? From what I can tell, the service judges are more vigilant about the racquet angle than the height. Comments?

[CWB001]

The elbow, as a locally authorised interpretation, is irrelevant. Okay, but the waist being "normally agreed to be below the level of the bottom rib" is also an interpretation and I've never seen that in the rules, either. The point is that the rules are vague and any interpretation is just an interpretation. I have given up trying to ask opponents to enforce this rule because it is so loosely interpreted that the pros regularly have ridiculously high serves. Tell me how the serve in this photo, to take a random example, is below his ribcage, elbow height, navel, or anything else that might count as a waist.

Hmm. I don't think you picked a good example. It looks good to me. I think your eyes have been deceived by the shirt designs or the net. Or maybe you are looking at the the racquet head or the server's hand.

[event]

Hmm. I don't think you picked a good example. It looks good to me. I think your eyes have been deceived by the shirt designs or the net. Or maybe you are looking at the the racquet head or the server's hand.

Maybe you're right. I think I was taught that the racquet head had to be below the waist and it's taking some time to get used to what the rules say, which is, of course, only that the shuttle must be below the waist. Still, it looks to me as if the shuttle here is too high and I'm convinced it's not the most extreme example. I'm sure I've seen higher.

[Kamen]

i have been following this thread for some time now but no one seems to mention about how long, within the rule, can we pause?

What if the server paused more than 5 secs?

[Neil Nicholls]

but the waist being "normally agreed to be below the level of the bottom rib" is also an interpretation and I've never seen that in the rules, either. The point is that the rules are vague and any interpretation is just an interpretation.

It's not an interpretation, it's a dictionary definition of "waist".
waist - the narrowing of the body between the ribs and hips

[DinkAlot]

Hmmmm, the serve below is borderline to me.

If I were a judge and the serve was causing the opponents problems, then I would call a fault. But if it's just an honest serve and there is no advantage/disadvantage, I would let it go. However, if the opponents mentioned something, I would enforce a fault.

[cheongsa]

A fault was called on Lee Wan Wah during the finals of the China Masters '05, while he was doing one such serve. He walked over to the service judge shaking his fingers, meaning to say "no, no, no, Mr. Service Judge", and was promptly warned by the umpire.

Jens Eriksen has a very similar service stance, and I don't think I have ever seen a service fault called on him.

As for Lee Wan Wah, now that they have wear the tiger-stripped shirts, the service judges can just see whether the shuttle is struck above the top, or is it the second or the top, strip?

[jerby]

that really is borderline....i'd call it fault if you'd ask me. the rackethandle isn't obviously pointing down.. and assumign his pants are tied on his hips his waist would be lower...

[coops241180]

A fault was called on Lee Wan Wah during the finals of the China Masters '05, while he was doing one such serve. He walked over to the service judge shaking his fingers, meaning to say "no, no, no, Mr. Service Judge", and was promptly warned by the umpire.

Jens Eriksen has a very similar service stance, and I don't think I have ever seen a service fault called on him.

As for Lee Wan Wah, now that they have wear the tiger-stripped shirts, the service judges can just see whether the shuttle is struck above the top, or is it the second or the top, strip?

i thought jens wasn't as upright to be honest, hence the shuttle would be lower - also - isn't jen's a bit taller than lee?

[CWB001]

i'd call it fault if you'd ask me. the rackethandle isn't obviously pointing down

Hmm. When did you last have an eye test? The racquet handle appears to be at about 40 degrees to the horizontal (with the hand about 15 cm above the racquet head), which more than complies with the requirement for the hand to be discernably above the racquet head. No non-blind service judge could fault the serve depicted.

[OTFK]

i have been following this thread for some time now but no one seems to mention about how long, within the rule, can we pause?

What if the server paused more than 5 secs?

I would not do it too often as I was warned for intentionally delaying the game.

[DinkAlot]

Hmm. When did you last have an eye test? The racquet handle appears to be at about 40 degrees to the horizontal (with the hand about 15 cm above the racquet head), which more than complies with the requirement for the hand to be discernably above the racquet head. No non-blind service judge could fault the serve depicted.

Agree with the racket head complying but what about the shuttle being above the waist? That's my concern.

9.1.5: the whole shuttle shall be below the server's waist at the instant of being hit by the server's racket;

Assuming the server hits the shuttle from the above referenced picture, to me the shuttle is 2"-3" above his waist, therefore a fault. Again, I would not call a fault unless the server was getting a decided advantage or if the opponents complained.

[CWB001]

Agree with the racket head complying but what about the shuttle being above the waist? That's my concern.

9.1.5: the whole shuttle shall be below the server's waist at the instant of being hit by the server's racket;

Assuming the server hits the shuttle from the above referenced picture, to me the shuttle is 2"-3" above his waist, therefore a fault. Again, I would not call a fault unless the server was getting a decided advantage or if the opponents complained.

Well I think that he does comply. The angle of view is misleading but if you extend a line between the 2nd line stripe on the shirts of both the players (which I reckon is the top of the waist, or thereabouts) you will see that the shuttle is well below it and therefore legal. He is even roghly level with the 3rd stripe. In addition the shirt of the server is lifted up by his arm lift, which makes the shuttle appear higher than it is.

You must ignore the net and look for proper clues as to position.

[DinkAlot]

Well I think that he does comply.

This is where we disagree. We disagree where his waist is. I say based on the picture, the shuttle is above his waist. You say it is not.

It's a subjective call.

[CWB001]

This is where we disagree. We disagree where his waist is. I say based on the picture, the shuttle is above his waist. You say it is not.

It's a subjective call.

We certainly do. But you have not said where you think his waist is and how you arrived at that conclusion. I have.

[DinkAlot]

We certainly do. But you have not said where you think his waist is and how you arrived at that conclusion. I have.

In my opinion, the shuttle is above the waist. It does not matter how I arrive at my conclusion. It's my opinion. End of story.