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  1. #205
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    Almost everybody here is focusing on the negative effects of this scoring change: shorter games (although that was a goal for IBF), less risk taking, no great comebacks, etc, and I agree with all that. But whining about the IBF being a bunch of half-brained losers (no protest from me there) is just not constructive. We have this scoring system now, and a final decision will be taken in May on its future. Either we "see nothing, hear nothing, say nothing" until then and hope that it just goes away (it might not), or we should focus the debate on what is good with this system or how it can be improved. In other words, constructive debate.

    I feel I've got enough 3x21 games under my belt now to give a first impression. As much opposed to this as I am, I tried hard to see some merits with this system, and after a while I did. Well, one merit: the mental game. The player really needs to be 100% focused all the time. Let's face it, in a 3x15 match, slacking off a bit if actually possible. Waste a few points in the beginning of each game just "to get started", sloppy/stupid risk-taking in your own serve, etc etc, you all know what I'm talking about. This also happens to be the kind of behaviour that calls for Big Comebacks, which is now much harder to pull off.

    So, for the mental game, I think this scoring change is for the better.

    However, there are several drawbacks. The one that I think has the most negative effect on the game is this: in most other sports with rally scoring, the serve is an offensive shot. In badminton, however, the serve is a defensive shot -- you can't attack your opponent with a serve. Instead, the initiative is with the receiver. The server counters this by taking risks when serving and really aiming for the lines, knowing that a lost serve isn't the end of the world. There is a power balance at work here.

    However, under the new scoring system, there is really no room for errors on the server's behalf, so he/she is forced to play more of a percentage shot. Aiming for the lines is simply too expensive. And add to this that the receiver has all the more reason to attack -- the power balance is gone. (This applies mostly to doubles but also to singles.)

    This fundamentally changes the way that badminton is played, and IMHO the other drawbacks are superficial in comparison. So, in order to be constructive, what can be done to regain this power balance? Well, if this scoring system is to become permanent, I feel it should be coupled with a modification of serving rules. The IBF also proposed this initially for doubles, by suggesting that the doubles service court be made bigger. At that time, I really didn't see why, but now I can see that they were trying to re-establish this server/receiver balance. But instead of focusing on the receiver, maybe it would be better to loosen the restrictions on the server? I'm not sure how, but one way might be to abolish the "racquet head under hand" rule? The shuttle would still need to be hit below the waist, but by allowing the racquet head over the hand there would be room for a few more tricks up the server's sleeve.

    Thanks for listening. Now flame on.

  2. #206
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    Default doubles scoring

    I played first games according to the proposed new rules yesterday. Scoring in singles is really nothing to discuss about. In doubles I found out that parters take serves in turns - similar to volleyball (6 players in conseutive order) an exactly like in beach volleyball (2 players in turns). The position from where to serve is defined by number of points scored by the side - even or odd. Quite simple actually! But since IBF needed one full page to explain this, I wonder whether we have oversimplified something or IBF's explaining capabilities are that bad...

    What is bad is that game lasts much shorter time. We were two equal strength doubles and first game that we played according to''old'' rules lasted 20 minutes, while second one according to ''new'' rules lasted less than 10 minutes. Of course it's not possible to make statistics out of that, but 10 minutes is definitely not enough in my opinion.

  3. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by aljosa
    I played first games according to the proposed new rules yesterday. Scoring in singles is really nothing to discuss about. In doubles I found out that parters take serves in turns - similar to volleyball (6 players in conseutive order) an exactly like in beach volleyball (2 players in turns). The position from where to serve is defined by number of points scored by the side - even or odd. Quite simple actually! But since IBF needed one full page to explain this, I wonder whether we have oversimplified something or IBF's explaining capabilities are that bad...

    What is bad is that game lasts much shorter time. We were two equal strength doubles and first game that we played according to''old'' rules lasted 20 minutes, while second one according to ''new'' rules lasted less than 10 minutes. Of course it's not possible to make statistics out of that, but 10 minutes is definitely not enough in my opinion.
    i think ur right about taking turns when serving, i hadn't seen that pattern.. if this is the case it makes it a little simpler, since you can figure out where you should be stood based on the score and who served last.

    Coops

  4. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brave_Turtle
    Lin said he didn't like the new scoring system. Taufik didn't like the new system. LYB didn't like the new system. Most of my baddy friend don't like the new system.
    I will give this system a try for another 3 months (like you suggested), if I still don't like it, I hope this it die like 5x7.
    I thought this was what Lin Dan said : "This new system means we have to concentrate and be alert all the time, and be fast too. I am getting used to it." This is at odds with what you said. Did Taufik play in the World Cup? LYB as the Chinese coach will have a big voice when the time comes to decide.

  5. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    I thought this was what Lin Dan said : "This new system means we have to concentrate and be alert all the time, and be fast too. I am getting used to it." This is at odds with what you said. Did Taufik play in the World Cup? LYB as the Chinese coach will have a big voice when the time comes to decide.
    Not really on odds with his statement...Lin Dan could still be preffering the old system even with the "diplomatic"? statement "This new system means we have to concentrate and be alert all the time, and be fast too. I am getting used to it.". He doesn't say he likes it.. just that he is "getting used"..

    The statement could be true even if there was the old 5x7 scoring discussed (or any shorter scoring for that matter)..

    /Twobeer

  6. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    TV probably represents the best hope to promote the game of badminton. With wide TV coverage, others like more sponsorships and bigger and bigger prize monies will follow. Identifying the major players is the easy part. Now how the hell are you you going to increase TV coverage on badminton, bring in more sponsors and increase prize monies to those of tennis? Lets say all of you BC Forum members collectively become Chairman of the IBF for a term, how would you go about it? Maybe this "bottom-up" management style will throw up some rare gems? Don't worry about hate emails.

    No TV will cover a game that nobody want to watch. To promote the game we must make it more interesting, not more boring. No game is interesting if at 18-10 people start to leave or switch off the TV as there is almost no possibility of a comeback. The leading player at 18-10 will play the safest game he can as he knows the game is already in the bag. No safe game is ever interesting.

  7. #211
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    This topic creates such a heated discussion and I do not want to be left out here ......BTW, few people comment that players do not like the new scoring system but I do not get the impression from their interviews.

    After World Cup, CCTC-5 interviewed the winners and asked their opinions about the new scoring system. I did not hear a single player making negative comments. Almost everyone said they got used to it after a while....maybe its because they were in front of TV. If they did complain about the new system elsewhere, I like to read about that......

    I have not tried the new system yet, so I cannot tell its good or bad, so I am not taking a stand on either side at this point....

  8. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by chibe_K
    I have not tried the new system yet, so I cannot tell its good or bad, so I am not taking a stand on either side at this point....
    While You're at it you should also try out the 15x5 rallyscoring system!! (I heard thats whats IBF gonna try if this fail..).. And also 10x3 rally scoring which will make the game even more high-tension and shorter (for a more exiting TV-friendly game) according to my sources inside IBF

    /Twobeer

    P.S. And don't forget to try out the use of single-service lines in doubles.. An interesting idea to make the lines easer to understand ...

  9. #213
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2NDround
    No TV will cover a game that nobody want to watch. To promote the game we must make it more interesting, not more boring. No game is interesting if at 18-10 people start to leave or switch off the TV as there is almost no possibility of a comeback. The leading player at 18-10 will play the safest game he can as he knows the game is already in the bag. No safe game is ever interesting.
    The jury is still out there on whether the new system will bring in more spectators than the old system, the sum total of the old and new because new fans and audiences are the future of badminton. It is money that speaks. More spectators, especially new fans, means TV broadcasters will come knocking on the door. TV broadcasters must make money for them to keep coming back. They can only make money when they can fill in the in-between games frequently. No commercial breaks, good for badminton die-hards but not good for TV. Without frequent TV, badminton will remain a village sport.

  10. #214
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    Guess what, LD will now take every title for 2006. Who can honestly beat him now? He's already the fastest singles player in the field.

  11. #215
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    The jury is still out there on whether the new system will bring in more spectators than the old system, the sum total of the old and new because new fans and audiences are the future of badminton. It is money that speaks. More spectators, especially new fans, means TV broadcasters will come knocking on the door. TV broadcasters must make money for them to keep coming back. They can only make money when they can fill in the in-between games frequently. No commercial breaks, good for badminton die-hards but not good for TV. Without frequent TV, badminton will remain a village sport.
    Taneepak, Do you honestly think it will attract more fans by changing the scoring rules of the game slightly???? Wouldn't you agree that other factors are far more important in order to attract audience and fans? The poll in this forum indicates that >80% of BF-forum members disslike this (= risk of actually reducing viewers from current fan-base), Wouldn't you agree there is a substantial risk that more people turn away from buying tickets, watching/promoting the games, when rally-scoring is used.

    I have already canceled my trip to Thomas Cup next year, and will not go to all-england, as I will not enqurage this scoring by buying tickets to these events..

    Could we actually find a living person that says "I wasn't interested in watching badminton before when they had 15x3.. But now when its 21x3 I really (I actually did a freudian keyboard slip at first, typing.. "rally" instead of "really" ) enjoy watching badminton" ????? I think not...

    /Twobeer
    Last edited by twobeer; 12-20-2005 at 07:19 PM.

  12. #216
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    No matter how bad the current format is, i will still watch and support badminton.

    Had a long chat with Hafiz yesterday after coming back from the World Cup.
    The 21 point format is not good, he says. You can't go out after before 11-0 points. By that time, you are already so sweaty and maybe tired. It is a much faster game and you can't enjoy it much.
    But changes is always there and we as players have to adapt to it fast. If not we will be left out. I hope i will learn to like this format.


    After that i got a trashing from him.

  13. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by twobeer
    Could we actually find a living person that says "I wasn't interested in watching badminton before when they had 15x3.. But now when its 21x3 I really (I actually did a freudian keyboard slip at first, typing.. "rally" instead of "really" ) enjoy watching badminton" ????? I think not...

    /Twobeer
    I have same opinion
    I much didn't enjoy to see the World Cup Final matches (with 3 x 21 rally pts) in TV Broadcast not because who are the winners.
    With so many service fault and some bad calls (TV has showed the ball on the line but umpire called out), one fault could destruct the play. I'm sure will born not real winner in badminton's future.
    This new scoring system will send the badminton going down.

  14. #218
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    Just like only a few of you, I'm also of the opinion that we should let the new scoring system be tested for a reasonable period of time before we arrive at a final verdict. I'm actually glad to note that the professional players acknowledged that they need to make changes to their play to accommodate to the new system. It means they are flexible and willing to take the challenge.

    The IBF is no fool but it doesn't mean that its Council members cannot make mistakes. Remember there are past badminton champions in ithe IBF Council, including Punch Gunalan and Rudy Hartono. But the fact that they are willing to make changes and have debated the issue of how to find ways to promote the badminton game internationally at great length and among other things, come up with this highly 'controversial' new scoring system is, IMHO, a positive move on their part. Lest we only how to criticize them, don't forget the good things that they have done - like the new International Training Centres that they have started.

    As some posters have commented, the IBF had made known their goals and action plans for some time now and the best way to popularize badminton to the world is through TV. But the IBF needs the money to be able to do this effectively so there has to be some trade-offs. Sponsors need more TV time to introduce their products and services. It is hoped that the new scoring system can help solve this problem. But we need to test it out and make modifications if necessary to ensure its success.

    Right now, it appears that the new scoring system is confusing for many of us social players, especially for doubles. But I'm sure over time, when we get used to it, it will not be a great problem. It is only natural that new things will need some time getting used to and often times any 'new' change is met with suspicion, reluctance and outright rejection. We have forgotten that there have been so many changes in human history and many of these changes have kept man on the move, bringing along new and wonderful creations for us to enjoy.

    We should therefore be more positive and not prejudge any proposed changes. Let the system work itself out. There must be reasonable time for it to be tested. The IBF has its plans. If, at the end of the 'experimental period', the majority of those involved who count most gives a 'NO' signal, then the IBF will have to go back to the drawing board and think of better solutions. But so far, even within such a short time, there has not been an avalanche of negative feedback that necessitates the IBF to stop in its tracks.

    Now players, especially if they are not as fast as Lin Dan, will have to play smarter and more accurately. They must be more focussed and can't afford to allow their mind to linger even for a second. The serve, which has always been one of the the most important tools of the game, now takes on greater significance. It has to be so good that the opponent can't kill it on the spot. It will appear that attacking players will have a decided advantage to shorten the rallies. But it will also force players to hone their defensive skills to perfection! The rallies could then last longer, though not as long as before.

    Imagine what sort of 'movie' you will be watching - badminton played even at a much higher level! Oh the TV viewers will love it. The sponsors will love it. IBF will love it!

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    loh, i'll buy that.
    good summary.

    all changes bring griefs to some and benefits to others.
    if 15x3 is good as we think, it will survive. Only changes can prove how
    good (or bad) the 15x3 system really is. The 5x7, 5x9 have proved 15x3 was better. Another test would prove how good the 15x3 really is.

    Personally i think better rackets and training have sped up the game already.
    Any faster will leave me still holding onto my half eaten hot dog and that would be a waste

  16. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    Personally i think better rackets and training have sped up the game already. Any faster will leave me still holding onto my half eaten hot dog and that would be a waste
    Mmmmmm, hot dog! With extra onions and ketchup?

  17. #221
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    Default similarities with the 3x15

    Not that i give it a lot of thought, but i was watching the Hafiz vs Chen Jin match and watching how close it was at some points and i wondered - why is it staying close?

    and then it occured to me.. if you don't score with your serve you don't actually make any improvement in score. and i thought - it's just like 3x15, but accelerated somewhat. you need to win the serve back then win a point to actually get anywhere.

    i think if the IBF increased the score to 25 or 31 and had ad breaks at 8 and 16 or 10 and 21 (depending on whether it was to 25 or 31) we could have a TV friendly system that had similar length games to 3x15.

    comments anybody? (apart from - if it ain't broke don't fix it...)

    Coops

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