Question to those fortunate to have seen Tang Xian Hu playing : Do you see similarity in strokes production,physical build,court movement and style ? In other words is Xia's game modelled after Tang (minus the endurance part of course).
To:Kwun I've already made some headway in reviving footage of Rudy Hartono's great moments. At this moment they are checking the 20-30 year old tapes to see if they are in working condition. In Tang's case only China BA and China Television have records.Perhaps you can try the China website, I'm sure some tapes may have been releaed long ago but they have not been re-issued.There are quite a few of Li Fu Rong in the 70's readily available in a co. called PHILCON.COM. Let me know if you have any success.
Re: To:Jake Right. Anyway this vcd co in China called Fook something or Philcon (www.philcon.cn) produces a series of 10 vcd's of famous table tennis stars demonstrating techniques and includes footages of thier great wins.In addition the China TT association has produced a set of vcd's (10 in a series) documenting Chinese TT history from 1950's to 80's. Now if only they can be convinced to do the same for badminton, we may finally get the chance to see Tang and Hou in action.
Re: To:Kwun It takes me a long time to figure out who Tang Xian Hu was. He was the Chinese Indonesian who moved back to China and helped develop the sport in China. I watched him on TV a few times while the Chinese badminton team visited Hong Kong. I was just an elementary school kid. He is also Xia's coach. I thought a lot of commentator already said Xia is coping Tang's game.
Re: To:Jake yes. it would be nice for the China BA to do that. it would be a great way to promote badminton in China or anywhere else in the world. do we have anybody here who has connection to them?
Re: To:Jake Think may be useful if someone get in touch with the posters at some chinese badminton forum. For starters, try contacting this guy(?) at bmfuny@163.net who seems to have quite a few 1980 and 1990s matches on VCDs like Han Jian/Frost 1985 WC etc. I came across his listing on a chinese website so may have to contact him in mandarin (but try english anyway). I have not seen Tang in action but recall elders calling him The Thing when I was a younger man. Not sure why that name but unbeaten in international matches (regardless of the lack of matches for prc) from 1963-1975 is something else.
Re: To:Jake Also not sure why he is called the Thing - probably as powerful as the Thing in the Fantastic 4??. Back then the media in China referred to a 'Tiger' and a 'Monkey' in badminton: Tang Xian Fu and Hou Jia Chang. Tiger because of power and Monkey because of agility. In their prime, Tang only lost to Hou and Hou also only lost to Tang. It seemed that during that time, not a single player in the world could match them. Tang Xian Fu went to Denmark in 1966 (??) with Chinese badminton team and beat the then Danish (also All England Champion??) Erland Kops in 2 straight sets. Erland Kops was so convincingly beaten that had a photo of Tang enlarged to life size and hung in his office - so the news said. Another famous player Punch Gunalan, once asked to name the all time best player in his opinion and he said 'Tang Xian Fu'. If not in mistake he reminded the interviewer that he also played against Rudy Hartono. Now, comparing Xia to Tang - I would borrow a comment from Platini, the famous French football player when asked to compare another famous French player to Maradona : what Zidane could do with a ball Maradona can do the same with an orange. To me, there's simply no comparison. Tang is in a of his own. Is not every player is regarded as 'all time greatest player' or the 'most perfect badminton player ever'.
Re: To:Jake This is a real nostagic....Let us put this into perspective, after beating Indonesia ( incl Rudy Hartona, Muljadi, Sonneville) to win Thomas Cup. Malaysian team did visit China for a tour of friendly matches. It was a white washed, though I remember Malaysia did win few games from Ng Boon Bee/Tan Yee Khan ( one of the greats by the way). Tang and Hou ( they were always mentioned in pair by press !) beat Malaysia's best and world class single players in the tour like Tan Aik Huang,Yew Cheng Hoe, Punch Gunalan. It was greeted with shocks in Malaysia's (results were front paged ), after overcoming the initial shocks, the badminton world learned and praised the talents of Tang & Hou and the # 3 Fang. Tang & Hou did not not compete in open tournements like All England, and never played against top Indonesia players due to political reason - but it was assessed at that time (late 60 and early 70) that they were much better players than Rudy Hartono. That was a golden era (you tend to biase with the era that you were growing up );with great single players like Kops, Pri, Delf, Aik-Huang, Muljadi, Hartono, Sooneville,Channanrong and Gunala to name a few. Unfortunetely Tan & Hou did not compete against them in the Open tournements..
Re: To:Jake As far as I know Tang and Hou did not play them in tournaments organized under IBF. They played in friendlies, invitationals and tournaments organized by the then World Badminton Organization(not sure if that was the organization name??) where many Asian countries were also members. My opinion is that current players skills still do not match Tang, Hou or even Hartono. It's true that many things improved, from training methods to equipment materials. But does that mean that you have better quality players? China is seen as a players' 'factory'. Players are mass produced and you can see similar patterns in players style. Logically current Chinese players skills should be better than their predecessors. But from my limited knowledge, recent players like Ji, Xia, Sun, Dong, Chen Gang, etc did not reach the level of the players of the 80's. We can see that there are many excellent badminton players. And as always great players appear and will later be replaced by another great player. There will always be discussions on who is the 'all time greatest' and it will never be pacific. As for me, I have watched Tang, Hou, Hartono, Prakash, Liem, Zhao, YY, Frost, Gade, etc and think that Tang is the better one. For once, his power, speed you can find similar players. For technical skills (offensive, defensive and dividing these into power and fine categories) - racquet skills and footwork he is still unmatched.
Re: To:Jake One thing that has definately changed is the pace of the modern game. It's so much faster than 20 years ago. Can a faster game 'allow' the expression of so many elaborate skills? Sun and Gade (IMO) are the best in recent years because of their ability to 'think' on court. For Gade, it's a pity he gets nervous on the final big games. For Sun, it was a shame he had those injury problems.
Re: To:Jake The pace of the game is changed but mostly to non Asian players. If you compare older generation of non Asian players you'll notice that they play at a different pace. However this is changing and Gade and C Martin are a good examples. From what I've been able to watch up to now I do not see or any new changes in techniques. Of course I could be wrong but seems that basics that I've learned are still applicable. Dong Jiong and Sun Jun when I first watched them play, both played at a very high pace. Even when under pressure their returns were also at high pace - say returning the shuttle with underhand in FH side, they would hit flatter return, similar to an attacking clear. In short, there were not varying the pace of their game and were in a way predictable. Later they changed their game but... Sun Jun I think that basics are not as strong as his predecessors. Think his footwork is not as good but he is really quick. He could be out of position or not well positioned to receive a shot, but he was able to fix and change very quickly. But this also has a toll on your strength and stamina. Similar to receiving a anticipated shot versus reacting to an unexpected one. Take an example, watch last year's All England game between Gopichand and Gade. I think Gopichand played a very high quality game. He moved Gade around and did not allow him to play his usual attacking game. To be able to do this, Gopichand must have an exceptional stroke (really hard to tell from video pictures), confusing his opponent and not allowing him to anticipate what stroke he is going to hit. Ellaborate or not, it worked for him. When I watched Tang play, his strokes and footwork were very very quick. Watching in a position that had him in front, his movements were incredibly fast. His movements were not deceptive, so to speak. They were fast, sometimes so fast that I did not even see the racquet movement. His movements were so coordinated and smooth - can't tell if he is going to clear, smash or drop. Hard to explain here. Only wished the video cameras were as common as today.
Re: To:Jake point taken but its probably also true that there were a greater variety of playing styles in the past. imho its easier to have a more dynamic game (though no less easy to master) than it is to have a all court game of han jian and frost. i doubt racquet technology in badminton has the same impact as that in tennis where a "slower" game is virtually gone (except for clay courts). a faster game imo clearly can accommodate a wide range of skills if the player has the ability to pull it off. the mark of a great player (singles or doubles at that) is his/her ability to vary the pace and change his tactics accordingly during the match. viver mentioned gopi's variations and deception giving gade some trouble in the 2001 AE. lol, i wonder how gade would have cope with prakash wiping his perspiration.
Wow ... Wow ... How I wish I ever had the chance to see them then .. Unfortunately, the earliest 'Great' player I've ever seen on TV or live was Han Jian in the 80's. And then came along players like Frost, Sugiarto, Misbun Sidek, Yang Yang, Xiong Guobao, Zhao Jianhua, Ardy, Joko etc, etc .... Of the lot to date, I still consider Zhao to be the consumate 'Wizard' on the court. With the most natural gift for the game and the greatest range of shots as well as deception. He had tremendous pace and power too. But unfortunately he lacked the consistency. Or I would put as 'motivation'...
Re: Wow ... I watched Prakash play before. I had posted before a match between him and Chen Tianlong from China. It was clear that Chen was technically better but Prakash was a really intelligent (crafty??) on court. He beat Chen using his perspiration. From what I've watched, I think Gopichand is more dangerous than Prakash. He should be taller than Prakash, seems to move faster and have a more powerful smash. If he plays consistently this way he should be a serious contender for #1 spot, I think. Other players I think that could also be strong contenders are the youngsters from China: Lin Dan and Bao ChunLai. Watched only a clip of few seconds here the game they played in Danish Open. It seemed to me these 2 guys have really good skills - racquet and footwork. Probably are the players to watch in the near future.
Re: Wow ... I respectfully disagree about gopi being more dangerous than prakash. IMHO from what i've seen, prakash has a far better all round game and a better fighting spirit. i get the sense that gopi will let the game go if shots/calls are not going his way. this may be a sign of his immaturity which he'll improve with experience but he has a little way to go. agree about lin dan which i think will be no 1 fairly soon if he continues to improve and mature. he's probably oe of best talents to emerge from china in years and a lefty!
Re: Wow ... This is the first time I saw Gopichand play and was impressed by the way he played. As I said, if he is able to play consistently the way he played against Gade... I've seen Prakash play before, live and on TV. I would agree that he is a very good player, to be all round, in my opinion he needed a stronger smash. In the few games I watched him play he mostly plays the 4 corners and uses very expertly the half smashes to unsettle his opponents. I don't recall him using smash and net play to win points. Think even that game, Japan Open (82??) where he played Han Jian, also same strategy. No (don't remember any) hard smashes and won the match. And of course he is a master tactician on court. He knows a lot of ways to make you lose focus during the game. Gopichand plays a style very similar to Prakash. My thinking about him being more dangerous than Prakash is due to his height, apparently physically stronger, moves faster and have a harder smash. But you could be right about Prakash's fighting spirit. Don't recall he ever gave up fighting however strong his opponent was. One thing I remember Prakash very well is because my best friend resembles him a lot. I was with him in Guanzhou to watch a friendly between China and Denmark back in early 80's. We were watching the Danish team practice. Chinese players and coaches were close by also watching and they looked at our direction and smiled. Later my coach came told us that they thought Prakash (my friend) was also there watching.
