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  1. #69
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    Plastic?


    I could make even Cooler nevous with the idea of me playing with nylon again.

    I do agree nylons present a control problem - soon as you spin them at the net, it almost a guranteed point and I can turn a new one into a bullet so much that it won't slow down enough to stay in the court.
    Then again I tend to got body hunting with nylon shuttles

  2. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ViningWolff
    Plastic?


    I could make even Cooler nevous with the idea of me playing with nylon again.

    I do agree nylons present a control problem - soon as you spin them at the net, it almost a guranteed point and I can turn a new one into a bullet so much that it won't slow down enough to stay in the court.
    Then again I tend to got body hunting with nylon shuttles
    lol, yes, i remember in my first corporate challenge, us against u guys in the final. In XD. your smashes were like... bodies or horizontally out.

  3. #71
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    Default Conspiracy Theory

    Just to STIR the pot a little more ...

    Maybe this is a conspiracy for the top racquet manufacturer (ahem) to gain further market share, riding on synthetic shuttles?

    (1) With the controversy of the bird-flu, China's rising cost of manufacturing (as China's economy develops, cheap labour is harder to find), the larger profit margin can now jusify the cost of R&D into synthetics

    (2) Someone (ahem) is close to manufacturing a synthetic shuttle that flies like feather and the durability is the same as feather (you don't want durability to surpass the feathers!)

    (3) Have to "start somewhere" to give merit/recognition to the plastic shuttle

    (4) There are lots of competing feather shuttle manufacturers but nothing close to the number of synthetic manufacturers

    (5) To flip the market production (demand for feathers) into demand for plastic shuttles and bring its manufacturing within its own borders

    (6) If North America starts competing (ie/ developing grassroot players), demand for IBF sanctioned plastic shuttles will sky-rocket

    My two & half wooden nickels! Cheers!
    Last edited by Break-My-String; 01-04-2006 at 04:00 AM.

  4. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWB001
    In the whole of Surrey I'm not aware of ANY competitive adult clubs that use plastics, and only one junior club. They are illegal in the district adult leagues and they are never used for practice sessions. County matches and above use exclusively feathers.

    Are you telling me that in Hertfordhire the competitve clubs and leagues use plastics?
    It depends on the league. For example, The Letchworth & District league (13 clubs) specifies Mavis 370 or equivalent to be used. Stevenage League (19 clubs) states that any shuttles can be used, but everyone uses plastics (All bar 3 use 370s). South West Herts (26 clubs) specify that feathers must be used in the top two divisions of each of their leagues. Hertford Area League (24 clubs) don't specify what to use so there is a mix of feathers and plastics.

    (I play in the Stevenage League and the Hertford Area League)

    As far as I'm aware, as in Surrey, county matches and above use exclusively feathers.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWB001
    You are quite right. That is what I meant and should have said.
    In that case, I apologise for calling you a snob!

    Incidentally, where in Surrey are you from? I lived in Redhill for a couple of years and still have friends (and soon-to-be-family) there.

  5. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_e_thompson
    It depends on the league. For example, The Letchworth & District league (13 clubs) specifies Mavis 370 or equivalent to be used. Stevenage League (19 clubs) states that any shuttles can be used, but everyone uses plastics (All bar 3 use 370s). South West Herts (26 clubs) specify that feathers must be used in the top two divisions of each of their leagues. Hertford Area League (24 clubs) don't specify what to use so there is a mix of feathers and plastics.

    (I play in the Stevenage League and the Hertford Area League)

    As far as I'm aware, as in Surrey, county matches and above use exclusively feathers.



    In that case, I apologise for calling you a snob!

    Incidentally, where in Surrey are you from? I lived in Redhill for a couple of years and still have friends (and soon-to-be-family) there.
    I live in Camberley, right on the Surrey/Hants/Berks border.

    I'm very surprised that all those leagues allow plastics. They are banned here - feathers only in all tournaments and matches.

    County matches all over the country will be feathers only.

  6. #74
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    Default True

    Its true, all IBF tours from Feb will use plastics, reasons :

    1) Too expensive to use feathers in Tours as high wastage

    2) Unable to find sponsors for IBF tours since new management took over, cut costs.

    3) Some kind of agreement with sponsors to use plastic.

    4) Other than 21 point ladies to wear more "sexy" outfits.

    Most tours will no longer be telecast live.

  7. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn
    Its true, all IBF tours from Feb will use plastics, reasons :

    1) Too expensive to use feathers in Tours as high wastage

    2) Unable to find sponsors for IBF tours since new management took over, cut costs.

    3) Some kind of agreement with sponsors to use plastic.

    4) Other than 21 point ladies to wear more "sexy" outfits.

    Most tours will no longer be telecast live.
    If what you say is true, then this is horrific. However, I still don't believe it. What are your references for saying it?

    There is nothing on the IBF website about any of this except the trial rules changes. Anything more is just scaremongering.

  8. #76
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyGeneric
    With (most) nylon birds hit very powerfully they should do the same, however the nylon (plastic) actually folds and the bird loses a large amount of this wind resistance and so the bird is still moving much closer to the speed it was originally hit at even when it reaches the other side of the court, making a smash essentially "unreturnable" as stated earlier.
    It is my understanding that when the plastic shuttle folds, not only does it 'loses a large amount of it's wind resistance' but the temporary distortion of the main shuttle frame (the part between the cork and the feathers) causes a random spin like trajectory until the point that the shuttle return to it's original form.

    This may explain why some people find it harder to retrieve a plastic shuttle smash besides the earlier point.

    Do correct me if i'm wrong.

    The Borneon BaddyNut.

  9. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Break-My-String
    Just to STIR the pot a little more ...

    Maybe this is a conspiracy for the top racquet manufacturer (ahem) to gain further market share, riding on synthetic shuttles?

    (1) With the controversy of the bird-flu, China's rising cost of manufacturing (as China's economy develops, cheap labour is harder to find), the larger profit margin can now jusify the cost of R&D into synthetics

    (2) Someone (ahem) is close to manufacturing a synthetic shuttle that flies like feather and the durability is the same as feather (you don't want durability to surpass the feathers!)

    (3) Have to "start somewhere" to give merit/recognition to the plastic shuttle

    (4) There are lots of competing feather shuttle manufacturers but nothing close to the number of synthetic manufacturers

    (5) To flip the market production (demand for feathers) into demand for plastic shuttles and bring its manufacturing within its own borders

    (6) If North America starts competing (ie/ developing grassroot players), demand for IBF sanctioned plastic shuttles will sky-rocket

    My two & half wooden nickels! Cheers!
    Conspiracy are we.
    1) In china, econ is only growing in major city. In country, people are getting poorer and poorer.
    2) Give a company enough money, they will make a plastic that fly like a feather and last longer. Example, German in WWII, they ran out of oil, so they made synthatic oil.
    3) Sound like you want to give a C student a B so he will work hard for a A but result will still be a C student.
    4) Agree with one additional point. There are not enough GOOD plastic shuttle OEM.
    5) Agree.
    6) Money to bring in big player. *** sell.

    Happy newyear everyone...

  10. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn
    Its true, all IBF tours from Feb will use plastics, reasons :

    1) Too expensive to use feathers in Tours as high wastage

    2) Unable to find sponsors for IBF tours since new management took over, cut costs.

    3) Some kind of agreement with sponsors to use plastic.

    4) Other than 21 point ladies to wear more "sexy" outfits.

    Most tours will no longer be telecast live.
    Is this april fools or ??????????????????????????????

  11. #79
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    I can see how the collapsing of the skirt on a nylon shuttle leads to a random spin.

    The guys at the one tourney I played a few years back said the shuttle was also hard to see.. all they saw was the head of the bird coming at them - which mean the skirt was folded up so much there was nothing to create spin.

    i.e. a 300 km/h knuckleball...

    In that regard I find that nylon don't last as long as feather. I miss-hit a nylon bird once, it'll stays deformed and it's done. The last time I played a serious tourment with plastic, we ended up using five (yes, count'em, five) nylon shuttles over two games in the semi-finals. ( keep in mind I'm pure power and not a "slicer")

    feather seem to bounce back better.

  12. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bbn
    Its true, all IBF tours from Feb will use plastics, reasons :

    1) Too expensive to use feathers in Tours as high wastage

    2) Unable to find sponsors for IBF tours since new management took over, cut costs.

    3) Some kind of agreement with sponsors to use plastic.

    4) Other than 21 point ladies to wear more "sexy" outfits.

    Most tours will no longer be telecast live.
    i find it hard to swallow that plastic shuttles for ibf tours, I do think feathers is necessary for A- or better players. How come i don't see tour pros practicing with plastic if this new rule is coming down? Surely they should be start phasing in plastic in their training and pushing plastics into the junior ranks as well.

    I think plastic shuttles can be made better to emulate feather performance but would never be close to resembling feathers.

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    here goes...

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    1. LOL, isnt that what i have said before in another thread "it's either u got it or u don't" (keith chan as example) Those are my words. http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...hlight=feather
    Yes.. My point being that just because player A is better than Player B an beats him with a wooden-plank, Tennis ball, Steel-racket or only in socks without shoes...or for that matter with plastics.. doesn't prove diddley that plastic is OK or performs close to a feather shuttle Or even is oj to play with . So I don't t agree with your conclusion that many players don't like plastics because they are not skillfull enough to play plastics..

    quote from your post: "Plastic haters find they cant control the plastic shuttles as easy as feather. That is why they dislike plastic shuttles. "

    I don't think they hate it beacuse they can't control it.. I think they hate it because it doesn't fly like its supposed to (like the original it's trying to replicate)..


    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    2. i'm not nor had not denying the flight, feel characteristic are different I didn't say skillful players can't control plastic shuttle, i said it is HARDER in comparision to feather. That is why all players eventually gravitate to feather playing.
    I don't think there is a concensus that real shuttles in anyway would be "easier" than plastics..Its just that if the shuttle decellerates more and is lighter emphasis on skills required will be different.. Skills in touch netplay, slices, decepitions, pushs become more important.. Flat cross-drives and slow-drops and big flat-angles smashes becomes less important skills .. To me it's exactly the same argument that you and I agreed on when comparing tennis to badminton.. Playing plastics is more 2D and feathers more 3D... Doesn't say you can't be good at playing 2d, and that skill isn't required for playing good plastic-badminton.. But its different and less 3-dimensional play.. To me it limits and dumbs down the game..


    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    3. u keep saying plastic doesnt perform as well as feather, not denying that. U are just giving me more support here. If something is less performing, as in plastic, it generally mean IT IS HARDER TO CONTROL IT, LESS COMFORMTABLE TO PLAY, LESS FEEDBACK.

    A simple analogy:

    which would u prefer to play with?

    steel = durable, hard to control
    graphite racket=feel nice and less strenuous but not durable.

    0.85mm string = durable, minimal feeback
    0.67mm bg85 = not durable, great feel and feedback

    wouldn't u say a steel racket is harder to control?
    It's a strange analogy.. Don't really know if control is the biggest drawback of a steel-racket.. Maybe it's generally harder to play with, especially defence! But for base to base clearance the heaviness may actually make some parts of the play easier for most beginners with a heavy steel racket.

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    wouldn't u say the thick 0.85mm string is easier to control?
    hmmm. No I wouldn't say that,,,I would say a 0.67 string is easier to control, but I would add that tension would probably be a bigger factor than gauge..

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    wouldn't u say all players would prefer a graphite racket with bg85 in this example?
    No, I wouldn't say "all", I would say there are probably som odd-balls preferring thick-string-heavy-steel-rackets out there somewhere..Perhaps even the same ones preferring Mavis 300 over good feathers ;P.. But probably not amongst most club-players and amonst world-top players :P

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    so in parallel

    plastic= durable but harder to control
    feather= better feel and control, less durable.
    My comparison would be::
    plastic= Poor feel and control, flat trajectory, Limited non adjustable speeds, higly durable.
    feather= Great feel and control, good trajectory, more exact speeds, less durable.


    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    feather is superior in the sense it is easier to control.
    lower terminal speed feature of a feather shuttle does not equate to superiority. It just mean a different flight profile. Yonex can make really really slow plastic shuttles if they want to.
    Well to use your own analogy with the steel rackets and thick strings...
    You could of course argue that anyone that says Graphite racket with .67 strings are superior to steel rackets with .85 strings, are incorrect and that they are really just "different"... But I think most people who like badminton would agree to :

    a) Graphite rackets are superior to steel rackets..
    b) Feather shuttles are superior to the current plastic replicas available as of today.

    You may of course argue that steel and graphite rackets are just different, and neither is superior.. But I think that's just playing with worlds.. Modern rackets are superior (my view of course)... Just as feathers are superior to the syntetic "copies" available to consumers 2006-01.

    cheers,
    Twobeer
    Last edited by twobeer; 01-04-2006 at 02:42 PM.

  14. #82
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    again i think u had misquoted me.

    i never and will never say plastic feel play and feel like feathers.

    the word superiority must has a base reference.
    in term of feel and control, thinner string, light racket and feather shuttles take the edge. However, u cant say feather has superiority flight profile because u r basing it upon itself, feather flight profile. What if badminton was invented based on plastic shuttle and then feather shuttles come later to emulate the plastic flight, any plastic die hard would say feather flight is subpar to plastic flight. Base on your definition of feather superiority on flight profile alone, wouldn't a speed 70 shuttle be MORE superior because it slow down even faster/sooner than your regular speed 77


    Plastic is faster because there is no attention paid to it by yonex and others.
    Maybe rising costs and bird flu would put attention back to plastic shuttles.
    Because of 3 speed ratings, it is rare that a proper speed plastic shuttles are even played. This alone already handicapped plastic's perceived performance.

    for your info, golf, tennis, basketball are all old games that were conceived using leather type balls but they are all using synthenic type ball today. Why, because they have to if they want to popularize their sports.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    for your info, golf, tennis, basketball are all old games that were conceived using leather type balls but they are all using synthenic type ball today. Why, because they have to if they want to popularize their sports.
    I don't think so. I think that the newer balls in those sports were introduced because they had "better" characteristics. Popularity was not an issue as far as I am aware. Which brings us back to feathers, of course.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CWB001
    I don't think so. I think that the newer balls in those sports were introduced because they had "better" characteristics. Popularity was not an issue as far as I am aware. Which brings us back to feathers, of course.
    yes, the #1 characteristic is .. durability.
    Players in golf & tennis have accepted the 'faster speed' of the synthenic replacement. Basketball wasnt a good example i guess, the ball is too big to make any different in speed or durability.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    again i think u had misquoted me.

    i never and will never say plastic feel play and feel like feathers.

    the word superiority must has a base reference.
    in term of feel and control, thinner string, light racket and feather shuttles take the edge. However, u cant say feather has superiority flight profile because u r basing it upon itself, feather flight profile. What if badminton was invented based on plastic shuttle and then feather shuttles come later to emulate the plastic flight, any plastic die hard would say feather flight is subpar to plastic flight.
    Feathers are the reference, because most competetive players prefer these characteristics of a shuttle..
    If a huge majority of great players would have preferred a flat trajecorty with folding skirts during smashes.. I am sure plastic would have been considered the reference..
    and if a replacement shuttle trying to emulate plastics made from feathers would fail to emulate this...this would have been considered sub-standard.. But fact stands: the characteristics of feathers IS the current reference, and preferred by most (I think there has been polls on this in BF ).

    And whenever a new plastic shuttle is released marketing tells us that this will be "as good as a feather".. and then we try it and have to conclude it sucks

    If you look at Yonex advertisment they try to differentiate their different qualities of plastic with how fast they turn in air and drops off (the more expensive the more the trajectory is supposed to match a feather-shuttle)..


    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    Base on your definition of feather superiority on flight profile alone, wouldn't a speed 70 shuttle be MORE superior because it slow down even faster/sooner than your regular speed 77
    I think You are confusing trajectory with speed.. Slower plastics or feathers will still have the same difference in trajectory.. The point is not WHEN it slows down, but HOW it slows down.. A plastic starts to slow down from the racket inpact and slows down almost linear.. loosing the same amount of speed per millisecond.. The feather looses porpotionaly moore speed the slower it travels..therefore the difference in trajectory.

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    Plastic is faster because there is no attention paid to it by yonex and others.
    Maybe rising costs and bird flu would put attention back to plastic shuttles.
    Because of 3 speed ratings, it is rare that a proper speed plastic shuttles are even played. This alone already handicapped plastic's perceived performance.

    for your info, golf, tennis, basketball are all old games that were conceived using leather type balls but they are all using synthenic type ball today. Why, because they have to if they want to popularize their sports.
    As I think You may find if you read my earlier post, I am not saying, Yonex and others CANNOT innovate and produce syntetic shuttles that could rival feather-shuttles.. And I would be Thrilled if they did!! I would really low high-tech syntetic Nano-shuttle that could perhaps even be made even more consistent, and temperature insensitive than current feathers.. Heck Why settle with what we have to day.. I would applaud progress...

    BUT what we have today are things like Yonex Mavis 3xx, Carlton Tx, etc and these plastic shuttles are plain and simply bad... really really bad ... But that doesn't mean syntetics must always be bad, just that the ones you can buy 2006-01-04 is...

    heck.. When did Yonex last produce even a new model of their syntetics??

    /Twobeer
    Last edited by twobeer; 01-04-2006 at 04:31 PM.

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