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  1. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwun
    ...
    the main factors for a true replacement are:

    ...

    3. durability (must be better than feathers to be worthwhile)
    4. cost
    I'm not sure I fully agree with the parethesised sentence at the end of item #3. I think synthetic feathers need to only be as durable as real ones. At least in the beginning. Because their real selling point would be the (low and fairly constant) cost, IMHO, since they're no longer restricted by forces of nature as it were (e.g., avian flu, animal conservation policies, shrinking farm estates). We can simply manufacture as many or as little as we want depending on the state of shuttlecock supply in the market.

    Of course, it'd be even better if we can come up with synthetic feathers that are even better than the real thing right from the start. But, if we were really to do this, let's see if we can walk first before we take off at a trot.

    FWIW.

  2. #104
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    Although i think no man made skirt will be equal to feather performance but i feel the current plastic skirt has much much room for improvement. Change is tough, it cost alot and people require adjustment. Cost only would come down on mass production volume but who want to be the first introduce a better plastic (not mass produced) at say, 5x the cost. Look at energy, solar cell, fuel cell, wind power, wave power have all been invented long ago but still cant crack into the main stream until recently due to big jump in oil price. The problem in badminton is that we dont even have a prototype or people working toward a feather substitute. If crises hit, we only got one backup, a plastic shuttle that hasnt been change for like 20 years. Someone has to start working on better substitute now. Will chicken feathers solve this crises. Problem is, chicken is also part of the avian flu cycle. (unless chicken/duck/geese for raised in a controlled factory but the risk still exist)

    i hope the chicken feathers would bridge us to the next better synthenic shuttles. Chicken feather isn't the answer if badminton popularity keep rising.
    Last edited by cooler; 01-05-2006 at 11:56 PM.

  3. #105
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    Cooler, what about coming up with something like the mother of all synthetic goose?

  4. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    Cooler, what about coming up with something like the mother of all synthetic goose?
    design one and send it to yonex, then charge royalties, BOOM instant millionaire

  5. #107
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    I'm sure this point has been made, but if it stops bird flu getting around worldwide then I'm okay with it. As long as these new shuttles aren't too different to feather ones...

  6. #108
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    It may surprise some of you that the lowest grade duck feather shuttles perform much worse than the best plastics now.

  7. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    It may surprise some of you that the lowest grade duck feather shuttles perform much worse than the best plastics now.
    Not at all. What I mean is for the top plastic and the top feather to be much more similar in performance. I've found the carlton shuttles to be okay tho.

  8. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Quasimodo
    Anyhow, I think the trick to making a synthetic shuttlecocks that fly, play and feel like feather ones is not to use plastic skirts, but instead to use synthetic feathers while keeping the original (shuttlecock) construction. I can't believe that with all the advancement in material science and manufacturing technology that they---whoever "they" are---can't come up with synthetic feathers that can replace real goose ones. Fake feathers already exists. It can't be that hard to extend that a little to design and manufacture something that resembles goose feathers, can it? Not if they *really* try?
    THe problem isn't "plastic" per se- it's that nylon will never cut it
    since it can't be stiff enough in thin sheets. The carbon fiber synthetics
    should be much better. Anyone actually fork over the $$$$ to try those
    out? Other synthetics could probably be found that would work OK,
    though not sure how you'd ever get adjustable speed. Then of course
    there's cost and durability. Natural materials have the advantage
    of being optimized during millions of years of evolution so they tend
    to be darn hard to improve on. Hence the lack of strings better than
    gut or shuttles better than feathers. Though as has been pointed out
    enough R&D would likely succeed as it has with rackets.

    On a related topic-- someone mentioned going through a plastic
    shuttle in one game or less. Same here, though not for the reason
    postulated ( head falls off due to bad hit ) but because after a series
    of hard shots the skirt has collapsed enough that the speed of the shuttle
    has gotten way too fast to be legal.

    Though I've also had heads fall off with only good solid centered hits.
    Our league used to use a certain plastic shuttle whose head would fall
    off as soon as you started clearing. It would last pretty well in doubles
    matches but one singles match could easy use a half dozen shuttles
    due to the clears.

  9. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan_bischof
    THe problem isn't "plastic" per se- it's that nylon will never cut it
    since it can't be stiff enough in thin sheets. The carbon fiber synthetics
    should be much better. Anyone actually fork over the $$$$ to try those
    out? Other synthetics could probably be found that would work OK,
    though not sure how you'd ever get adjustable speed. Then of course
    there's cost and durability. Natural materials have the advantage
    of being optimized during millions of years of evolution so they tend
    to be darn hard to improve on. Hence the lack of strings better than
    gut or shuttles better than feathers. Though as has been pointed out
    enough R&D would likely succeed as it has with rackets.

    On a related topic-- someone mentioned going through a plastic
    shuttle in one game or less. Same here, though not for the reason
    postulated ( head falls off due to bad hit ) but because after a series
    of hard shots the skirt has collapsed enough that the speed of the shuttle
    has gotten way too fast to be legal.

    Though I've also had heads fall off with only good solid centered hits.
    Our league used to use a certain plastic shuttle whose head would fall
    off as soon as you started clearing. It would last pretty well in doubles
    matches but one singles match could easy use a half dozen shuttles
    due to the clears.
    head falling off is related to design, not related to having a plastic skirt.

  10. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by stan_bischof
    THe problem isn't "plastic" per se- it's that nylon will never cut it
    since it can't be stiff enough in thin sheets.
    ...
    I thought about this and I agree that a single sheet will most probably won't cut it. However, if it's shaped (e.g., a hollow tube), it may provide the necessary structural strength similar to that of real feathers. Kind of like auto body panels. A flat sheet metal is structurally very flexible. But, when given shapes (e.g., doors, fenders, bonnets, undercarriages), they become quite strong. Enough to do away with steel beam chassis.

    So, IMHO, with all the technology we've got, we ought to be able to design and manufacture a hollow tube with "fluff" on opposite sides, and see how that works out. Granted that, as Stan said, nature's got millions of years head start on us perfecting avian feathers, so we've got some catching up to do. But, this should be a start.

  11. #113
    Regular Member ants's Avatar
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    Do you know that in terms of shuttle recovery when you hit it , the plastic ones perform much better than the normal feathered shuttle.

  12. #114
    Regular Member jug8man's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants
    Do you know that in terms of shuttle recovery when you hit it , the plastic ones perform much better than the normal feathered shuttle.
    Sounds very interesting & impressive. Care to ellaborate coz i'm not very sure what you mean by 'recovery'

    Thanks

    The Borneon BaddyNut

  13. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by jug8man
    Sounds very interesting & impressive. Care to ellaborate coz i'm not very sure what you mean by 'recovery'

    Thanks

    The Borneon BaddyNut
    During the contact from the stringbed to the shuttle, the CORK is actually facing the stringbed. After the impact which is within the microseconds, the CORK will face the opponent side. That is what i call Recovery of the shuttle.

  14. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by taneepak
    It may surprise some of you that the lowest grade duck feather shuttles perform much worse than the best plastics now.
    We used to buy in cartons of no brand shuttles, which costs around HK20 per dozen. I find their flight much better, say compared with YY Mavis 300.

  15. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants
    During the contact from the stringbed to the shuttle, the CORK is actually facing the stringbed. After the impact which is within the microseconds, the CORK will face the opponent side. That is what i call Recovery of the shuttle.
    That's why plastic shuttle travel a lot faster..

  16. #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants
    During the contact from the stringbed to the shuttle, the CORK is actually facing the stringbed. After the impact which is within the microseconds, the CORK will face the opponent side. That is what i call Recovery of the shuttle.
    How about the 'recovery' of the shuttle skirt when hit hard, like in a smash?

  17. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by ants
    Do you know that in terms of shuttle recovery when you hit it , the plastic ones perform much better than the normal feathered shuttle.
    I was just browsing http://www.yonex.com.au for an unrelated purpose, but a sentence there under the Shuttlecocks section caught my eyes and I quote: In factory smash-speed tests to 300 kmph, Mavis 370 delivered consistent 0.020-sec. recovery, only 0.005 sec. off the 0.015 recovery performance of YONEX Feather Shuttlecocks. Do you mean that the slightly slower recovery time is actually better in actual play?



    P.S.: I apologise in advance if I sound like I'm doubting you. That's not my intent. I just want to get a clarification.

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