User Tag List

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast
Results 35 to 51 of 52
  1. #35
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brunei
    Posts
    453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A substantial pronation because of the way we grip it? Ie gripping it as if we are gripping a kitchen knife and if we try to whip the racket to hit the bird, we naturally have to pronate slightly ? Otherwise we will chop the bird instead ?

    Oh btw, since you don't quite get my metaphors, do you use any metophors/analogies for your students to help them visualize and appreciate the way ? If you have, maybe you can enlighten me as I seem to understand words explaining a certain technique better with metaphors
    Last edited by Monster; 08-22-2006 at 03:39 AM.

  2. #36
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,937
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster
    A substantial pronation because of the way we grip it? Ie gripping it as if we are gripping a kitchen knife and if we try to whip the racket to hit the bird, we naturally have to pronate slightly ? Otherwise we will chop the bird instead ?
    Yes. The right grip is approximately like how you would hold a kitchen knife (not a pan), and adopting this grip forces you to pronate your forearm -- not slightly, but substantially and violently. This creates power.

    The trouble is that many players, when they try this grip, use the same technique as they did with the panhandle (like holding a pan) grip. Then they complain that they can't hit the shuttle.

    Technique and grip need to be taught together. This is especially important for forehand overheads (I am including a basic technique section in the new grips guide).

    Oh btw, since you don't quite get my metaphors, do you use any metophors/analogies for your students to help them visualize and appreciate the way ? If you have, maybe you can enlighten me as I seem to understand words explaining a certain technique better with metaphors
    Metaphors are an excellent coaching aid. Different players "get" different metaphors, so it's worth having a stock of them.

    Metaphors on their own, however, are a little risky. Often different people interpret them differently. That's a limitation of communicating entirely by text!

    For this reason, I like to keep the metaphors fairly simple, using them to communicate broad ideas and feelings, but not to communicate very precise, subtle distinctions.

    Some good basic metaphors for the forehand grip and throwing action:
    • "The basic (forehand) grip is like holding a knife or axe, not a frying pan."
    • Or: "It's like shaking hands with the racket handle."
      • Supplement these metaphors with demonstration and technical qualification: "but it's not exactly like holding a knife. The "blade" should be at a slight inwards angle, so that the top edge is pointing out away from your body, and the bottom edge is pointing in. This puts the "V" shape between thumb and forefinger towards the diagonal bevel on the racket handle."
    • "For an overhead forehand, the hitting technique is like throwing a ball, not like throwing a dart."
      • Supplement with a demonstration -- compare right way with wrong way. Show in slow motion how the racket angle changes about 180 degrees during the stroke. Use throwing practices with a shuttle (some people can't throw a ball properly -- so teach them!).
      • Optional racket head cover practice to help them gain some awareness of the difference in feel between throwing with the racket head facing forwards (like a dart) and throwing with the racket head initially sideways on. Aim for decreased air resistance in the swing, as this should improve the timing of the throwing action. This practice can be over-used and does not teach a perfect technique.
    Last edited by Gollum; 08-22-2006 at 05:24 AM.

  3. #37
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    143
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    hi monster, the swinging motion on overhead (smashing/clear) is similar to a tennis serve. like to point out that a number of tennis pro would arch their backs for wind up, and most of them follow through motion will end up with a lowered upperbody, like taking a bow. the shoulder, forearm, and wrist movement is a good mimic but not the bow. it is also similar to a pitcher's baseball throw, but not the bow motion at the end.

    the best way to learn is to observe the top badminton player (club/pro) by slow motion video. i see many female's pro's swinging motions differ from their male pros. i like watching Zhang Ning. she has smooth action all around. she's got a slim, very balanced but althetic body type. i recommend you to watch Mia Audina's action as well, a short and chubbier player with great skills. if u got long arms n legs then mimic xie xing fang. mimic a pro's motion closest to your body type and height at first, and u will develop your own skill/style later on.

    Gong zhi zhao is a very successfully singles female player (163cm), yet she can smash just fine. i got a female friend who's 5'1 with a arr.... not so slim body (guessing 130 lbs?, don't have to guts to ask, ok?) , an accomplished player who is also very good on smashing and jumping. it is all about skill. it CAN be done.

  4. #38
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brunei
    Posts
    453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    With all the detailed explanation, I get to picture how the right gripping and swinging is EXCEPT the bit where the forearm violent pronation comes in. I can't imagine a tennis player serving with his forearm twisted at some stage. Maybe I really need to see a demonstration. I recently had the chance to talk with one of our national players here and he showed me how he smashes. I couldn't see the twisting bit. I asked about pronation and he doesn't know what pronation is. He just knows how to smash and it appeared to me like tennis serve but with a follow through as Avatar mentioned, the bow.

  5. #39
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,937
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    A tennis serve is similar in some respects to a badminton smash, but not in others. I do not think it is a helpful metaphor. There are many differences between tennis and badminton technique; tennis makes much less use of forearm rotation than badminton does: in tennis, the upper arm is more significant. Many badminton techniques are impossible to use in tennis.

    I would not necessarily expect a national player to know what "pronation" is. It's a fairly technical term, and many players will not encounter it when they are coached.

    Observing professional players has many benefits, but also many pitfalls. You may not get an accurate understanding of their technique from watching them, and they may not describe accurately what they really do.

    Looking at still pictures in particular leads to misconceptions about grips.

    Forearm rotation, which may be likened to a sharp throwing action, is used by all good players for power. It happens very quickly and you may not be able to see it unless you see a slow-motion video or demonstration. Other parts of the body may be moving more dramatically and obviously, and these can distract from the quick, compact forearm rotation.

    Attempting to understand these techniques purely by reading text on an internet forum is a difficult way to learn. It will be much more effective if you get some coaching -- from a qualified coach, not from a player.

    Unfortunately many coaches teach non-standard, esoteric techniques that are not supported by evidence. Finding a good coach is not always easy. I'm afraid I can't help you there, however! I cannot control what other coaches teach.

    I don't have this problem so much myself, because since my coach education I am able to spot good advice from bullsh*t. This helps me assess the credibility of a coach: if he starts by teaching me something that directly contradicts the principles taught by the national coaching body, then I will find another coach.

    So that's one way to learn: become a coach yourself! Not really ideal for most players, though....
    Last edited by Gollum; 08-24-2006 at 07:23 AM.

  6. #40
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,937
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    For players concerned about learning the right techniques, I can only offer the following advice:
    1. Get a coach.
    2. Get another coach. The second coach may give different advice!
    3. Where there is a conflict of advice, try both methods thoroughly and see which works better.
    4. Learn from as many other resources as possible (videos, books, BF...)
      • Discuss the most interesting ideas with your coach(es).
    5. Get another coach.....
    Alternatively:
    1. Be really fortunate and get a very high level coach (say, someone who trains the national team). He should teach you well.
      • Bear in mind that even this coach is fallible. Don't worship him like a god.
      • A consensus of expert opinions is always more likely to be correct than a single expert opinion, no matter how much you admire that person.
    Last edited by Gollum; 08-24-2006 at 07:36 AM.

  7. #41
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Canada
    Posts
    143
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    i m a little surprise that a national player doesn't know what pronation is. may be english is not his first language. several of Gollum's opinion inspired me.
    1. different coaches may help
    2. watching pros may NOT help
    agreed!
    when watching pros, u need to select shots to watch. watch a pro's (similar to your body type, and movement style) slow mo when he/she is doing a standing straight smash. NOT under pressure, jumping, cross courts or deceptive shots. observe the basics to learn the basics.

    i have a set of instructional VCD in Chinese which is elaborate. I found some of the instructor's advices on the swing just cannot apply to me. probably because she is a female player n i m not. so i pick up other tips which i find useful.

    video tape yourself. u don't even need a Digital Video Camera. i just use a tripod with my digital still camera, and tape myself in action from different angle. share your video with your coach and/or experienced player. i did that when i was coaching juniors. i then wrote down points for em to review. one youngster even tape his smashing action, and post it on youtube to ask other players in this forum for advice.

  8. #42
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brunei
    Posts
    453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Thanks guys. I see that you're making the effort to clear things out for me. I guess I will have to take this to the next step - observe and ask more during games as I cannot easily find a coach here and also due to my time.

    When asked about pronation, he straight away shook his head saying that he doesn't not learn terms and yes, he's not a native english speaker. He has learned how to smash in his schooldays with a squash racket for 30 mins non-stop he said until sometimes he would lose grip and just completely tire out ! I assume that the coach watches how they smash and correct on it. Probably as Gollum said, the subtle pronation from observation is corrected through fine-tuning their swinging and smashing after having practised few hundred times.

    I also get comments that my body is too stiff. When I tried to apply what you guys said and what I observed, often I feel that my elbow and forearm is in a weird position. Maybe this all means more practise needed.

    Once again, thanks for explaining.

  9. #43
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brunei
    Posts
    453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just have a weird thought. Sorry but another metaphor. I have no video, unfortunately.

    Is the violent forearm rotation somewhat similar to an upwards wrist flick ? This wrist flick naturally causes your forearm to twist anticlockwise ie pronate.

    Another way to think of it is, if I am using my hand to slap a bag. Not my palm, but the other side of the palm. I can slap it in two ways. One is the "shooo-ing" slap (the opposite to a wrist curl you would do at gym). The second is slapping by swinging your wrist from left to right (in fact, some of you shoo this way rather than the first slap I described to ask someone to step ASIDE, not away). Another way to think of the second slap is as if you are wiping dust away from your jacket with your hand. So now instead of slapping, you grip your hand tightly as if you are holding a racket.

    And the correct pronation Gollum wanted to convey is the second slap.

    Gollum & Avatar, somewhere along this line.... ? I wish I have a video, as describing in words can be very messy esp when English isn't my native tongue (probably for you as well despite speaking English everyday!)

    Btw, ultimately it all means getting a proper coach(es). However, not everyone has the luxury esp when you are already passed the care-free adolescence period. So let's not get into getting a coach to help people like me here. Appreciate your time and effort in explaining, but coach is just not an option for me......unfortunately.

    Btw, your grip guide also includes smashing since you said they are taught together? Is it for sale?
    Last edited by Monster; 08-24-2006 at 07:36 PM.

  10. #44
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,937
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster
    And the correct pronation Gollum wanted to convey is the second slap.

    Btw, your grip guide also includes smashing since you said they are taught together? Is it for sale?
    Again, it's hard to be sure whether you are thinking the same thing based on this metaphor.

    It would be easy for me to say, "Yes, you got it!"; but I honestly can't tell from your description.

    If you really want to be sure, then why not learn about the anatomical movements of the wrist and arm? Then I can tell you in definite terms:
    • Most badminton strokes use rotation of the forearm for power. Forehands supinate the forearm in preparation and pronate it during the hitting. Backhands pronate then supinate.
    • In preparation for forehands, wrist extension is often used together with forearm rotation. The wrist then usually flexes, but note that this flexion does not produce much power on its own. Some backhands may use flexion followed by extension in a similar manner, but note that this movement is even weaker. It's more about providing the natural hitting angle than power.
    • For some backhands such as net kills, radial deviation of the wrist followed by ulnal deviation may be used. Forearm rotation is still important here.
    • The grip is tightened on impact for extra power.
    • Some strokes, such as tight net kills, may be hit with "finger power", which makes use of this sudden tightening of the grip together with a sharp elbow extension (controlled by the biceps and triceps).
    • And of course there are other details and qualifications that one might make.
    I think I'd better include some photos for the basic technique in my grips guide! That should help reduce the need for slippery metaphors.

    The grips guide is not for sale, since it is a free article. The current version of the guide is available here at BC, and a new version is taking shape on my computer

    I may eventually figure out a way to make some money from this (or related work), but for now it's free. Unfortunately, this limits the time I can spend working on it, so it's rather slow progress.
    Last edited by Gollum; 08-24-2006 at 08:38 PM.

  11. #45
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,937
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The grips guide does not teach stroke production, but the new version will include a limited set of technique instructions to help players understand how to use the grips.

    The current guide is here: http://www.badmintoncentral.com/badm...nt/view/81/35/

  12. #46
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brunei
    Posts
    453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    alright, i'll just keep on trying.

  13. #47
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Calgary, Canada
    Posts
    909
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    1) when you are smashing your weight should be mainly focused on your right foot if your right handed (vice versa for lefties) and as you are swinging, the weight should be transfered to your left foot, or a sciscor kick.

    2) you should be positioned slightly behind the bird so you can hit it DOWNWARDS, if you hit it 90 degrees above you (highest point) you will not get any angle, you want to hit it as high as you can while positioned slightly behind the shuttle.

    3) proper grip, wrist pronation.

    4) get coaching if you don't already have any coaching

    5) proper swing motion, make sure you are hitting the sweetspot, or you won't get as good power or control.

    6) make sure your hitting your smash as tight to the net as possible.

    well those are the basics

  14. #48
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brunei
    Posts
    453
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Btw Gollum, Are you going to put the new grip guide here as well once it's completed ?

  15. #49
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    London area, UK
    Posts
    3,937
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Monster
    Btw Gollum, Are you going to put the new grip guide here as well once it's completed ?
    Yes, that's the plan. It should replace the old grips guide, although I will ask Kwun to maintain an archive copy.

  16. #50
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    court
    Posts
    35
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    For power smash must have speed on racket.
    If have good grif and impact point you must be loose.

  17. #51
    Regular Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    6,527
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    It may surprise you, but have you observed that in tennis forehand ground strokes, arm rotation, specifically pronation, is so pronounced? The amount of pronation is even more extreme than in badminton. Pronation is a natural propulsion tool. Your feet pronate a few degrees (6 to 8 degrees) when you walk. Your arms pronate when you swing them when walking.

Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. Trade-off between powerful smash and steep smash
    By huynd in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 14
    : 06-24-2010, 02:39 PM
  2. changing mindset (I just smash smash smash, and its not always working)
    By giant_q_tip in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 17
    : 04-05-2010, 08:38 AM
  3. problems with smash, jumping smash and flick serve
    By llpjlau in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 22
    : 04-21-2006, 02:52 PM
  4. hey i was wondering how to smash and return a smash??
    By hoponpop in forum Techniques / Training
    Replies: 14
    : 03-12-2005, 07:59 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •