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Thread: Taufik Hidayat

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    The problem with TH is not long rallies per se... The problem is, win or lose one long rally, he needs the following 2 - 3 pts to catch his breath. He would try to do outrageous things like net-catching-return-of-serve, which in most cases is costing him points instead of winning points -- but his purpose is to have some rest anyway.

    TH indeed looks in better shape than most of the times during the past 3 years (2008-10), but I would say he is still not as good as himself in 2007, not to say 2006, and yes, definitely not comparable to 2005 or 04.

    Quote Originally Posted by OneToughBirdie View Post
    FO and DO, TH looks fit and in better shape than before, but definitely cannot compare to TH in WC05 which I think that was the best of TH and I am priviledged to see him play live in Anaheim. With LCW at age 28 and hurt, LD not played much, and CJ who is beatable, and no other top opponents, who knows how far TH will go. As a fan, I am glad to see a great shape TH to entertain us.

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    TH in FO vs LD in TC or LCW in JO, I don't see much chance for TH...

    But of course, who knows. Maybe LD will play like in Swiss Open, maybe LCW will crumble again under pressure, anything can happen...

    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    Taufik is just rediscovering how to play the 21-point system. He needs to make sure he acclimatizes himself quickly at Guangzhou.

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    I will be glad to see TH getting bronze..he himself did not set up high expectation.Tough for him to play Asian games, Team and individual and after 2 SS...I do not see he has time to recover at all...

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    Quote Originally Posted by huangkwokhau View Post
    I will be glad to see TH getting bronze..he himself did not set up high expectation.Tough for him to play Asian games, Team and individual and after 2 SS...I do not see he has time to recover at all...
    That is a good point...lots of games to play in AG, but that apply to all the top players too. TH is sure fitter than before and if LD/LCW drop a notch, and TH play up a notch, that may level things up...still I can't see LD losing in MS gold. Then again, most of my past predictions went sideway anyway...

  5. #668
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by huangkwokhau View Post
    JP complained in his facebook after beating Gade, he felt that his legs could not move anymore...not sure he could play next day...but he did and of course it is tough for him to win with this condition...anyway..he is going under operation.
    off topic:
    ..JP is undergoing surgery??..
    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    ...
    If you watch the match, you can see that JOJ's "clever shots", "fast attacking shots" start to appear during the 2nd half of the 1st game. I said "if TH were fresh" based on the general form TH showed during the tournament. As we all know TH's form fluctuates wildly during any given year, so TH losing to JOJ in Jan. does not mean anything here.

    Anyway, how come saying TH tired means not giving credit to JOJ? Following the same logic, since I also said JP is not only tired but also injured in FO final, I am not giving TH any credit either. So I am after all very impartial, right?
    - You can stick with your view that the reason he lost vs. JOJ in the DO was because he was tired. I'm still on the opposite view. The match could've gone either way or could've gone to rubber games, imo, esp. with a score difference of only 2 pts.
    Btw, if i recall, JOJ's fast and attacking shots appeared in the 1st game as well.
    Speaking of TH being "fresh", how can one be "fresh" playing in the Final Rd.? i doubt if he or anyone else would be "fresh" playing deep into the latter rounds. TH couldn't be any "fresher" when he played against JOJ in the M'sia Open earlier this yr, yet, what happened??..What's all this about TH's fluctuating form??..
    - Where did you give credit to JOJ?..all i've been reading from your post is about how tired TH was and if he wasn't tired and was "fresher", he "should be able to beat JOJ easily"
    - Do i care if you're impartial or not????..All i'm focusing on is the excuses abt TH when he lost..
    - As for the comparison between the match against JP, imo, Taufik would've won against an injured or un-injured JP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Felix. View Post
    guess who has the most posts in this thread?
    TH's biggest fan : ctjcad.
    ..and you just found out abt that???..
    btw, i am also one of his biggest critics (i'm sure you've read my posts abt him being lazy to train and all)..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-13-2010 at 02:37 AM.

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    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    in response to a few of ctjcad's points...

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    (...snip...)
    Btw, if i recall, JOJ's fast and attacking shots appeared in the 1st game as well.
    That's what ye333 mentioned in his post...
    If you watch the match, you can see that JOJ's "clever shots", "fast attacking shots" start to appear during the 2nd half of the 1st game.
    Speaking of TH being "fresh", how can one be "fresh" playing in the Final Rd.? i doubt if he or anyone else would be "fresh" playing deep into the latter rounds.
    Why not? Professional players are trained to improve their performance over brief periods, and to last the 5-odd days that tournaments usually take. Is it any wonder you witness some really great games only during the final stages of a tournament?

    TH couldn't be any "fresher" when he played against JOJ in the M'sia Open earlier this yr, yet, what happened??..What's all this about TH's fluctuating form??..
    It does not make sense to compare a person's physical/mental/emotional condition from one day to 3 months ago. Besides, come on now, it's no secret Taufik is something of a mood player.

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    As a matter of fact, TH looks quite fresh in FO final.

    In fact being "fresh" in a final is not rare at all: LD looks quite fresh in FO09 final; LD looks quite fresh in AE09 final; LCW looks very very fresh in JP07 final; And the most significant example: LD looks HELLISHLY FRESH in OG08 final.

    What do you mean by "giving credit"? Did I say JOJ does not deserve the win? Did I deny that in DO final JOJ played better than TH? IMHO I gave JOJ enough credit. He beat a tired TH fair and square and got his first SS title. If you insist that JOJ is already at the same level as TH, sorry I just cannot agree.

    Just curious. Suppose JOJ beat LD, and someone talks about his observation that LD looks "tired", would you also blame him/her for not giving JOJ "credit"?

    As to "impartial", if I am impartial, then you are too harsh on TH.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    off topic:

    - Where did you give credit to JOJ?..all i've been reading from your post is about how tired TH was and if he wasn't tired and was "fresher", he "should be able to beat JOJ easily"
    - Do i care if you're impartial or not????..All i'm focusing on is the excuses abt TH when he lost..
    - As for the comparison between the match against JP, imo, Taufik would've won against an injured or un-injured JP.

    ..and you just found out abt that???..
    btw, i am also one of his biggest critics (i'm sure you've read my posts abt him being lazy to train and all)..

  8. #671
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    As a matter of fact, TH looks quite fresh in FO final.

    In fact being "fresh" in a final is not rare at all: LD looks quite fresh in FO09 final; LD looks quite fresh in AE09 final; LCW looks very very fresh in JP07 final; And the most significant example: LD looks HELLISHLY FRESH in OG08 final.

    What do you mean by "giving credit"? Did I say JOJ does not deserve the win? Did I deny that in DO final JOJ played better than TH? IMHO I gave JOJ enough credit. He beat a tired TH fair and square and got his first SS title. If you insist that JOJ is already at the same level as TH, sorry I just cannot agree.

    Just curious. Suppose JOJ beat LD, and someone talks about his observation that LD looks "tired", would you also blame him/her for not giving JOJ "credit"?
    ...
    - So, according to you TH looked fresh in the FO Final (the 2nd of the back to back tourney) yet he looked tired in the DO..???..can you make the connection?..logically, shouldn't he look more tired at the end of the back-to-back tourney instead of the first?..
    - Yes, i have not much dispute about LD & LCW being fresh in the Fnals of those tourneys. Btw, the reason LD & LCW looked fresh in the Finals of those tourneys you mentioned was because they haven't played for a while. Same deal with TH. But OTOH, you don't think TH was fresh/was tired playing in the Final of the 1st tourney of back-to-back tourneys.
    If you can't connect the dot, the reason why i brought up TH's loss to JOJ earlier this yr (in the M'sia Open SS) was because you mentioned TH would've won against JOJ if he was "fresher". Well, in that M'sia Open SS, it was Taufik's first tourney of the year, so i assume he was "fresh"; probably "fresher" than he was at the DO Final. It was also in the 1st round, which means TH hasn't played competitive baddy for a while; probably only training. Yet, he lost to JOJ...Again, logically, a player would be "fresher" playing in the 1st or earlier round than at the latter round or even Final Rd. of a tourney.
    Yes, pro players are trained hard so they can perform over a brief period of competition. If that's true, and if that applies to TH, i don't see why being tired, esp. playing in the 1st tourney of consecutive touneys would matter for TH??..
    - Yes, where did you give JOJ credit for his win over TH? I'd like you to show me and prove me wrong..And no, he didn't beat a tired TH..
    - Show me where you think i insist JOJ is already at the same level as TH..All i've mentioned was the match/games could've gone either way. To me, if you think TH was somewhat unlucky in the match (because he broke his strings etc.), or had momentary concentration lapses, i would somewhat consider that. Overall, JOJ was just sharper and a bit more consistent than TH; besides playing smart and applying the right game plan. That's all. But to use the excuse that TH was tired for the reason he lost???...
    - Yes, i will also dispute and "blame" that someone in your scenario.
    - I am being harsh on TH because a player of his caliber and talent, plus being an Olympic and WC champion, shouldn't take nearly 4 yrs to win a SS level tourney and not accomplish at least what PG, a player slightly older than him, has accomplished. I mean, SS is offered 12 times a yr since 2007, how hard is it for TH to claim a few??..
    *Btw, i misread your other comment abt JOJ playing fast in the latter half of the 1st game (i thought you mentioend the 2nd game). I made the post very late at night and when i realized the error and wanted to change it was too late....But, i don't get what was your point in bringing that up??..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-14-2010 at 07:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..and you just found out abt that???..
    btw, i am also one of his biggest critics (i'm sure you've read my posts abt him being lazy to train and all)..
    Should i compare you to the guy who killed John Lennon??

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    ..and you just found out abt that???..
    btw, i am also one of his biggest critics (i'm sure you've read my posts abt him being lazy to train and all)..
    Should i compare you to the guy who killed John Lennon??
    Last edited by Yoppy; 11-15-2010 at 05:12 AM.

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    Why is it so hard to understand... Let's say you need to finish two projects in two weeks (one project per week -- an analogy to TH playing two tournaments back to back). On Thursday of the first week, you found that there is a bug, and you spent a whole night fixing it (an analogy to TH vs DPY in DO SF). On the other hand, the 2nd project goes smoothly, you work a regular 8 hour/day and get everything done. Now question: Will you be fresher on A) the first Friday or B) the 2nd Friday?

    As I said, my "if TH being fresher" comment is based on my evaluation of TH's form during DO, during that particular week. We all know this has nothing to do with TH's form 10 months ago. So my comment should not be understood as saying "whenever TH is fresh, he should be able to beat JOJ easily".

    It should be clear to everyone that TH really wanted the DO title. Now if you think JOJ is not at the same level as TH yet, and TH is not tired, then how come he lost? As to "lapse of concentration", I didn't spot any during DO final.

    Actually TH's SS ranking is quite good. I would object looking at only the titles, especially when comparing players with only a few titles (for example, before FO, BP has one SS title, TH has none. Does that mean BP did better than TH in SS?)

    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    - So, according to you TH looked fresh in the FO Final (the 2nd of the back to back tourney) yet he looked tired in the DO..???..can you make the connection?..logically, shouldn't he look more tired at the end of the back-to-back tourney instead of the first?..
    - Yes, i have not much dispute about LD & LCW being fresh in the Fnals of those tourneys. Btw, the reason LD & LCW looked fresh in the Finals of those tourneys you mentioned was because they haven't played for a while. Same deal with TH. But OTOH, you don't think TH was fresh/was tired playing in the Final of the 1st tourney of back-to-back tourneys.
    If you can't connect the dot, the reason why i brought up TH's loss to JOJ earlier this yr (in the M'sia Open SS) was because you mentioned TH would've won against JOJ if he was "fresher". Well, in that M'sia Open SS, it was Taufik's first tourney of the year, so i assume he was "fresh"; probably "fresher" than he was at the DO Final. It was also in the 1st round, which means TH hasn't played competitive baddy for a while; probably only training. Yet, he lost to JOJ...Again, logically, a player would be "fresher" playing in the 1st or earlier round than at the latter round or even Final Rd. of a tourney.
    Yes, pro players are trained hard so they can perform over a brief period of competition. If that's true, and if that applies to TH, i don't see why being tired, esp. playing in the 1st tourney of consecutive touneys would matter for TH??..
    - Yes, where did you give JOJ credit for his win over TH? I'd like you to show me and prove me wrong..And no, he didn't beat a tired TH..
    - Show me where you think i insist JOJ is already at the same level as TH..All i've mentioned was the match/games could've gone either way. To me, if you think TH was somewhat unlucky in the match (because he broke his strings etc.), or had momentary concentration lapses, i would somewhat consider that. Overall, JOJ was just sharper and a bit more consistent than TH; besides playing smart and applying the right game plan. That's all. But to use the excuse that TH was tired for the reason he lost???...
    - Yes, i will also dispute and "blame" that someone in your scenario.
    - I am being harsh on TH because a player of his caliber and talent, plus being an Olympic and WC champion, shouldn't take nearly 4 yrs to win a SS level tourney and not accomplish at least what PG, a player slightly older than him, has accomplished. I mean, SS is offered 12 times a yr since 2007, how hard is it for TH to claim a few??..
    *Btw, i misread your other comment abt JOJ playing fast in the latter half of the 1st game (i thought you mentioend the 2nd game). I made the post very late at night and when i realized the error and wanted to change it was too late....But, i don't get what was your point in bringing that up??..

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    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ye333 View Post
    Why is it so hard to understand... Let's say you need to finish two projects in two weeks (one project per week -- an analogy to TH playing two tournaments back to back). On Thursday of the first week, you found that there is a bug, and you spent a whole night fixing it (an analogy to TH vs DPY in DO SF). On the other hand, the 2nd project goes smoothly, you work a regular 8 hour/day and get everything done. Now question: Will you be fresher on A) the first Friday or B) the 2nd Friday?

    As I said, my "if TH being fresher" comment is based on my evaluation of TH's form during DO, during that particular week. We all know this has nothing to do with TH's form 10 months ago. So my comment should not be understood as saying "whenever TH is fresh, he should be able to beat JOJ easily".

    It should be clear to everyone that TH really wanted the DO title. Now if you think JOJ is not at the same level as TH yet, and TH is not tired, then how come he lost? As to "lapse of concentration", I didn't spot any during DO final.

    Actually TH's SS ranking is quite good. I would object looking at only the titles, especially when comparing players with only a few titles (for example, before FO, BP has one SS title, TH has none. Does that mean BP did better than TH in SS?)
    - I would feel one would still be beat by the end of the 2nd week, no matter how much one spends the energy during the 1st week. Again, it goes back also to the factor of who the opponents are. And if you believe pro players train to last them for a certain duration of tournaments, then TH being tired, after just competing in the first of back-to-back tourneys, should be out of the question. Even a few of the members also praised TH for his seemingly hard work and recent improvement in his durability.
    If you want to see a tired Taufik, check out his lost to LD in the 2006 Japan Open MS Final and last yr's WC Semis vs. CJ.
    - Let me ask, do you think TH is "fresher" playing in an earlier round or in the Final Rd.?
    - Why TH lost, you ask? I already explained it a few times. Even mentioned it in my previous reply.
    - You might not spot TH's "lapse of concentration". But others might notice it.
    - In comparing BP and TH, if BP has one SS title before TH, then of course he did better than TH in the SS (partly depends on the level of competition). Same deal with TH; he just won the FO, of course he did better than BP. And that's exactly, i'd like to know why a player w/a level like BP can win a SS title before TH won his. Even Simon Santoso won a SS title and SDK won a few titles as well before TH finally won his!
    Last edited by ctjcad; 11-15-2010 at 03:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad View Post
    (...snip...)
    - In comparing BP and TH, if BP has one SS title before TH, then of course he did better than TH in the SS (partly depends on the level of competition). Same deal with TH; he just won the FO, of course he did better than BP. And that's exactly, i'd like to know why a player w/a level like BP can win a SS title before TH won his. Even Simon Santoso won a SS title and SDK won a few titles as well before TH finally won his!
    This is a point you have brought up earlier as well in this thread. Your argument does not make sense to me. There are too many variables and subjective issues that may restrict one person from performing at his optimum level one week (indeed, even one day!) as against another's experience. As well, their success/failure at any given time would also depend to some extent on the (different set of) variables that others in the tournament are simultaneously experiencing. It is by no means apples-apples! And I wish people would just understand and accept that fact instead of expecting robotic efficiency from human heroes.

    There are many who would like to insist that LD has always been a superior player to Taufik. Notice the emphasis on "always been." If so, how come Taufik won OG, WC and AG golds before Lin Dan got anywhere close to smelling gold? Especially when so many claimed he (LD) was "ready" to claim those medals? Would that not by the parameters of your own arguments, make Taufik a permanently superior player to Lin Dan?

    So I would like to paraphrase your last question back to you with a substitution of names:
    "And that's exactly, i'd like to know why a player w/a level like TH can win a OG, WC and AG title before LD won his."

  14. #677
    Moderator cobalt's Avatar
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    ... except of course, that LD still has not won his AG title... yet...

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    Reconciliation from two great king of badminton????
    http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/106887630/AFP

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    Regular Member miksss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pejantan View Post
    Reconciliation from two great king of badminton????
    http://www.gettyimages.ca/detail/106887630/AFP
    Both look so happy,

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    This is a point you have brought up earlier as well in this thread. Your argument does not make sense to me. There are too many variables and subjective issues that may restrict one person from performing at his optimum level one week (indeed, even one day!) as against another's experience. As well, their success/failure at any given time would also depend to some extent on the (different set of) variables that others in the tournament are simultaneously experiencing. It is by no means apples-apples! And I wish people would just understand and accept that fact instead of expecting robotic efficiency from human heroes.

    There are many who would like to insist that LD has always been a superior player to Taufik. Notice the emphasis on "always been." If so, how come Taufik won OG, WC and AG golds before Lin Dan got anywhere close to smelling gold? Especially when so many claimed he (LD) was "ready" to claim those medals? Would that not by the parameters of your own arguments, make Taufik a permanently superior player to Lin Dan?

    So I would like to paraphrase your last question back to you with a substitution of names:
    "And that's exactly, i'd like to know why a player w/a level like TH can win a OG, WC and AG title before LD won his."
    thats a good question but watch out for different answers, mate!

    not every member think taufik was great and is stilll great,

    here i really don't understand and i don't wish to find out either...lol

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