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Thread: Taufik Hidayat

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    It's very interesting that by the end of 2006(his last "prime year" according to many) Taufik's "head to head" against most of the top players were either in favor of him or they were the same.
    Vs Lee Chong Wei 4-1 Vs Peter Gade 4-4 Vs Lin Dan 4-3(counting Asian Games individual and Team and not counting the retire at Hong Kong 2006) and Choong Hann Wong 3-3. VS Boonsak Ponsana 4-0 and Sony Dwi Kuncoro 1-1.
    Vs Chen Hong 7-2. Vs Bao Chun Lai 3-3. The only player he seemed to have struggled with is Lee Hyun Il with 1-2.

    And then it kinda went downhill from there only keeping the lead now vs Peter Gade, Chen Hong, Ponsana and taking it from Sony Dwi Kuncoro.

    Losing it from LCW in 2009, Lin Dan already in 2007. Choong Hann Wong in 2008. Bao Chun Lai also in 2007 and losing twice without winning against Lee Hyun Il.

    Interesting indeed...
    Last edited by Giga01; 10-06-2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason: Spell checks etc.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    It's very interesting that by the end of 2006(his last "prime year" according to many) Taufik's "head to head" against most of the top players were either in favor of him or they were the same.
    Vs Lee Chong Wei 4-1 Vs Peter Gade 4-4 Vs Lin Dan 4-3(counting Asian Games individual and Team and not counting the retire at Hong Kong 2006) and Choong Hann Wong 3-3. VS Boonsak Ponsana 4-0 and Sony Dwi Kuncoro 1-1.
    Vs Chen Hong 7-2. Vs Bao Chun Lai 3-3. The only player he seemed to have struggled with is Lee Hyun Il with 1-2.

    And then it kinda went downhill from there only keeping the lead now vs Peter Gade, Chen Hong, Ponsana and taking it from Sony Dwi Kuncoro.

    Losing it from LCW in 2009, Lin Dan already in 2007. Choong Hann Wong in 2008. Bao Chun Lai also in 2007 and losing twice without winning against Lee Hyun Il.

    Interesting indeed...
    Gah sorry, Bao was also ahead of Taufik I think. Won at the 2004 Thomas cup,which the BWF site also does not count for some reason. LD vs TH was also 4-4 by the end of 2006, Thomas Cup again. There may be more matches I have overlooked that does not show on the BWF site... Sorry for not getting my facts right.

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    Suddenly there is a new forumer, with hardly any post before, posting with similar style like another forumer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sen View Post
    Suddenly there is a new forumer, with hardly any post before, posting with similar style like another forumer.
    good observation?hehe

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    Haha! I am here again to post a new "correction"(lesson learned from this: Don't ever use only the BWF site for H2H stats before 2007 or something) .

    Taufik vs Bao is 4-4 because of Taufiks win in 2003 Sudirman Cup and Taufik stats vs Lee Chong Wei are actually 5-1(AG win added).
    LD was also ahead by 4-5 by the end of 2006(2005 Sudirman Cup added).
    Lin Dan was(and still is) very, very hard to beat when he represented his country,winning against TH in team AG and losing in individual is one fine example, whereas Taufik was not. I'm pretty sure someone knows those stats.
    Also,please correct me if I got something wrong again.

    And, cawali, I think that being able to win the big ones, the ones that really matter is a VERY important attribute of any sportsman. There is almost no such thing as "happened to be major ones".
    I'm pretty sure that now that Lee Chong Wei would be happy to trade at least 2 of his Super Series wins over Lin Dan for one OG or WC medal win...
    Last edited by Giga01; 10-07-2012 at 08:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I'm pretty sure that now that Lee Chong Wei would be happy to trade at least 2 of his Super Series wins over Lin Dan for one OG or WC medal win...
    Black market trade ?

    Well, winning OG and WC are every players dream. I believe, if LCW could engage into such transaction with LD, LCW will ask LD to pick any of superseries's medals he wants to for OG medal or WC medal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cawali View Post
    Four Olympic outings and he happened to win one out of four attempts, the others were early round eliminations. Luck or skill?

    He never win an All England after playing in that event for 12 years.

    Lee Chong Wei managed to read two finals out of three outings ended up with two silver medals. I dare say he can reach another final four years later if he takes care of his body and legs. Is that luck?

    Same as the above, Lin Dan can pull an Olympic Gold hattrick because we know from time and time again he will always deliver.

    Taufik can still boast with pride that he had won the three major titles but only just. The current statistics and performance do not agree he is a class above other contemporary players even at his peak.
    I would not say that QF at the 2000 Olympics really is an "early round elimination". In 2008 he lost very early, yes he did. In 2004 he won the Gold medal. At the 2012 olympics you could not really blame him for losing early, after all he met Lin Dan in the round of 16.

    And he did not only win 3 major titles but 4, you forget that he has won Asia Games twice. Winning twice in 4 tries isn't too shabby. I'm sorry to say that not even Lee Chong Wei has won four majors,With heavy emphasis on won.

    I believe you and I read the statistics somewhat differently, because the only players right now with a better win vs loss balance stat than Taufik right now is Peter Gade, Lee Chong Wei, and Lin Dan. Stat-wise he might be the worst of them but arguably not achievement wise. And he was ahead of some strong players during his prime... 5-1 vs LCW is not a bad stat and so is 7-2 vs Chen Hong( by comparison BWFs H2H Lin Dan vs Chen Hong is 5-5 and Chen Hong vs LCW is also 5-5).

    To actually be able to win 8 times over LCW and "only" losing 13 times to that are also not bad numbers( LCW stats vs Peter Gade is 16-2 to compare again). Many players struggle to take even one set from Lee Chong Wei. If there is one thing Taufik isn't it's your regular player. He is not even your average top 10 player.

    By the end of the day, the only way to make Taufik look "bad" is to compare him to Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan, arguably the two best players of all time. Compare him to anyone else in this era and Taufik will come up on top.
    Last edited by Giga01; 10-07-2012 at 12:07 PM. Reason: Grammar, spell checks and some other additions.

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    Default Taufik Hidayat Ready to Put Finishing Touches on Successful Career

    Jakarta Globe


    Ami Afriatni | August 15, 2012



    This 2004 file photo shows Indonesia's Taufik Hidayat at the Athens 2004 Olympics Men's Singles badminton semifinal. With the London Games as his final Olympics event, Taufik Hidayat is preparing to close the final curtain on his career. The former Olympic and world champion announced his official retirement from the national team and will make a few appearances before ending his long and decorated career at the 2013 Indonesia Open in June. (AP Photo/Vincent Thian)




    With the London Games as his final Olympics event, Taufik Hidayat is preparing to close the final curtain on his career.

    The former Olympic and world champion announced his official retirement from the national team and will make a few appearances before ending his long and decorated career at the 2013 Indonesia Open in June.


    “I’m officially retired from the badminton,” Taufik said on Wednesday, just five days after his 31st birthday. “But I will play in select tournaments as a farewell. I plan to make a memorable farewell celebration in the 2013 Indonesia Open.”

    He will play in the Japan Open, French Open and China Open this year, and next year’s Malaysia Open, All England and Indonesia Open.

    “I have good memories from these tournaments and I have many friends and fans in China,” Taufik said.

    Taking a step out of the spotlight might not be easy and living life after badminton could be harder. But Taufik already has plans for his second act.

    He has been helping to prepare the Taufik Hidayat Arena, a sports hall that is scheduled to be finished in the not-too-distant future in Ciracas, Jakarta. He already used one of eight badminton courts at the arena to prepare for the London Games.

    “I will put all my effort to raise the THA,” he said. “After Lebaran, we will start to look for young players who have talent and offer them the chance to train in my arena. I want to give back to the sport that has already given me so much.”

    Taufik will scout talented players around the country and offer them scholarships and living money. He’s even ready to offer them support to play in tournaments abroad if they are good enough. He will get help from coach Mulyo Handoyo and SGS Elektrik Bandung, his current club.

    Taufik has long been considered one of the most controversial shuttlers in Indonesia. His outspoken manner often landed like a slap in the face to Indonesian Badminton Federation officials, but there was little they could do because he constantly proved that he was the best in the country.

    “I asked myself, ‘Am I ready to leave the sport that gave me many things?’ ” Taufik said. “Badminton has been in my blood throughout my life. Am I ready to retire? Yes, I am.”

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    It's very interesting that by the end of 2006(his last "prime year" according to many) Taufik's "head to head" against most of the top players were either in favor of him or they were the same. Vs Lee Chong Wei 4-1 Vs Peter Gade 4-4 Vs Lin Dan 4-3(counting Asian Games individual and Team and not counting the retire at Hong Kong 2006) and Choong Hann Wong 3-3. VS Boonsak Ponsana 4-0 and Sony Dwi Kuncoro 1-1.Vs Chen Hong 7-2. Vs Bao Chun Lai 3-3. The only player he seemed to have struggled with is Lee Hyun Il with 1-2.
    L D vs TH = 6 - 5. L D win in 2001 ABC, 2005 SC, 2006 : TC, Japan, and AG twice. TH win in 2002 & 2006 AG, plus 2004 Ina, and 2005 Spore & WC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    And then it kinda went downhill from there only keeping the lead now vs Peter Gade, Chen Hong, Ponsana and taking it from Sony Dwi Kuncoro.
    That's TH's fault. L D improve a lot since 2005, that's why he can dominates the world badminton in MS.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Losing it from LCW in 2009, Lin Dan already in 2007. Choong Hann Wong in 2008. Bao Chun Lai also in 2007 and losing twice without winning against Lee Hyun Il.Interesting indeed...
    Losing it from L D in 2006 already...losing it from BCL in 2005, but leading again in 2006, then losing it again. The question is why ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I believe you and I read the statistics somewhat differently, because the only players right now with a better win vs loss balance stat than Taufik right now is Peter Gade, Lee Chong Wei, and Lin Dan. Stat-wise he might be the worst of them but arguably not achievement wise. And he was ahead of some strong players during his prime... 5-1 vs LCW is not a bad stat and so is 7-2 vs Chen Hong( by comparison BWFs H2H Lin Dan vs Chen Hong is 5-5 and Chen Hong vs LCW is also 5-5).
    What is the point to involving Chen Hong in the comparison between L D and TH ? To make TH not so bad in front of L D ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    To actually be able to win 8 times over LCW and "only" losing 13 times to that are also not bad numbers( LCW stats vs Peter Gade is 16-2 to compare again). Many players struggle to take even one set from Lee Chong Wei. If there is one thing Taufik isn't it's your regular player. He is not even your average top 10 player.
    Again, what is the point to involving other player (Peter Gade) when you are comparing TH vs LCW ? How if LCW fans also involving BCL in the discussion ? LCW vs BCL = 12 - 4. LCW vs TH = 13 - 7, and BCL vs TH = 8 - 4. How about this ? TH looks really bad in the comparison, right ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    By the end of the day, the only way to make Taufik look "bad" is to compare him to Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan, arguably the two best players of all time. Compare him to anyone else in this era and Taufik will come up on top.
    how about Chen Long, Chen Jin and BCL ? They also has positive H2H against TH. Even without L D and LCW, I highly doubt TH will be the most successful in this era. The record says it all. The most experienced MS player in major event, but only can win an average 2 titles per year even in his prime.
    Last edited by Fortune; 10-13-2012 at 08:43 AM.

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    Taufik is definitely not the most prolific in terms of titles, even during his prime. However when he did win them, it was in such a way/style that made him unique. I can't recall anyone who could make the game look so easy due to his playing style or anyone who had a stronger backhand.

    There will always be better players, players who win more titles and more gold medals. That comparison is pointless because we already know who they are. In that right, they themselves are Legends of the game.

    But in terms of personality, and playing style. There will only be one Taufik Hidayat. Regardless of how many titles or medals he won. I respect him for the player and the person he is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
    What is the point to involving Chen Hong in the comparison between L D and TH ? To make TH not so bad in front of L D ? Again, what is the point to involving other player (Peter Gade) when you are comparing TH vs LCW ? How if LCW fans also involving BCL in the discussion ? LCW vs BCL = 12 - 4. LCW vs TH = 13 - 7, and BCL vs TH = 8 - 4. How about this ? TH looks really bad in the comparison, right ? how about Chen Long, Chen Jin and BCL ? They also has positive H2H against TH. Even without L D and LCW, I highly doubt TH will be the most successful in this era. The record says it all. The most experienced MS player in major event, but only can win an average 2 titles per year even in his prime.


    Thank you for the corrections about Lin Dan's and Taufiks head to head in your earlier post! It is much appreciated!

    Why am I not allowed in Chen Hong in the discussion? If you try to compare two players to each other of course you should not only include their head to head versus each other! If you only do that you get all sorts of weird stats. I believe it's important to show(as I wrote) that Taufik had good stats against strong players during his prime, in this example, Chen Hong. Is it not interesting that Taufiks head to head is so immensely in favor of him versus a player that has played 50-50 vs Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei in his career? At least I think it is.

    I included Peter Gade because he is without a doubt a very, very good player. In fact, during his career he has won more matches in total than Lin Dan. Not saying that he is a better player because, he isn't. And such a good player is still only able to win 2 times against Lee Chong Wei? It tells you very much about Taufik to be able to have beaten Lee Chong Wei 8 times.
    I agree with you that you can make Taufik look bad with those BCL stats yes. But you could also turn them around and say that Taufik has beaten Lee Chong Wei TWICE(you forgot to include Asian Games) as many times as Bao. It is very important to include all stats something I tried to do but ultimately it seems like I might have failed.

    I do believe that Taufik will be remembered as the most successful player of this era outside of Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan. I really do. His only challenger is probably Peter Gade. Indeed the record says it all.

    I believe Chen Long is fully capable to recreate and surpass what Taufik has done, he is an extraordinary talent and it feels like he won't have as much "resistance" from other players during his time. Like... He maybe won't have a Lin Dan to his Lee Chong Wei so to speak. But I think that Chen Long is from another era than Taufik . He is in the discussions for the NEW BIG FOUR, he is not trying to take that place from anyone else. You know that Li Yongbo invited Lin Dan, Taufik, Peter Gade and Lee Chong Wei to that tournament before? Chen Long was not included.
    Honestly, I don't know about Chen Jin, seeing as he has won about half of what Taufik has won(about half the titles and half the majors) He will probably be able to play about 4 more years though so I don't think we can have this discussion yet. I think what Chen Jin is able to achieve may depend entirely by how long Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan keeps playing. Also,important point, do you believe that Lin Dan gifted Chen Jin the 2008 All England Title so that Chen Jin was able to get ranking points towards the 2008 Olympics?
    Bao Chunlai has already retired. And he has also not won many individual titles as Taufik , he is a terrific team player though probably on of the best ever(?).
    Their head to head versus Taufik is still very interesting though, but their individual "success" or whatever you want to call it is not as great as Taufik's, yet(Chen Long).

    Please correct me if I'm wrong again.
    Last edited by Giga01; 10-13-2012 at 03:32 PM. Reason: Grammar and wording. Some additions.

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    About Chen Long and the New Big Four I meant to say that he is not trying to take the place from anyone in the current big four.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Why am I not allowed in Chen Hong in the discussion? If you try to compare two players to each other of course you should not only include their head to head versus each other! If you only do that you get all sorts of weird stats. I believe it's important to show(as I wrote) that Taufik had good stats against strong players during his prime, in this example, Chen Hong. Is it not interesting that Taufiks head to head is so immensely in favor of him versus a player that has played 50-50 vs Lin Dan and Lee Chong Wei in his career? At least I think it is.
    CH never won World Championships, and not even bronze medal @ OG, also never played in Thomas Cup SF & Final from 2002 - 2006, then what is so special about CH ??? Why CH ? Why not Xia Xianze, Chen Jin or Bao Chunlai ? Surely bcoz you don't want TH looks so bad in front of L D.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I included Peter Gade because he is without a doubt a very, very good player. In fact, during his career he has won more matches in total than Lin Dan. Not saying that he is a better player because, he isn't.
    Won more matches, but in the total, L D still the best. L D = +395, LCW = +343, PGC = +369, TH = +269 (the data until OG 2012)
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    And such a good player is still only able to win 2 times against Lee Chong Wei? It tells you very much about Taufik to be able to have beaten Lee Chong Wei 8 times.
    PGC vs LCW first meeting was happened when Gade already 27 years and 7 months (Malaysia 2004), surely not fair to count. What Peter can do at that age ??? To be fair, we also only count the H2H between TH vs LCW when TH also 27 years and 7 months. And the result is 7 - 1 for LCW, with 5 of it ended in straight sets, plus TH only can score < 10 pts in G1 or G2. That is what TH can do against LCW when he was 27 y.o. really a nice stats.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I agree with you that you can make Taufik look bad with those BCL stats yes. But you could also turn them around and say that Taufik has beaten Lee Chong Wei TWICE(you forgot to include Asian Games) as many times as Bao. It is very important to include all stats something I tried to do but ultimately it seems like I might have failed.
    Asian Games = unofficial BWF events. And you count it into the H2H stats. How about China Badminton League or World Cup. Count or not count ? BCL beat TH in CBL this year or last year.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I do believe that Taufik will be remembered as the most successful player of this era outside of Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan. I really do. His only challenger is probably Peter Gade. Indeed the record says it all.
    His record is not so impressive
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I believe Chen Long is fully capable to recreate and surpass what Taufik has done, he is an extraordinary talent and it feels like he won't have as much "resistance" from other players during his time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    About Chen Long and the New Big Four I meant to say that he is not trying to take the place from anyone in the current big four. Like... He maybe won't have a Lin Dan to his Lee Chong Wei so to speak. But I think that Chen Long is from another era than Taufik . He is in the discussions for the NEW BIG FOUR, he is not trying to take that place from anyone else.
    If CL can win 26 titles during his career, TH/PGC still greater than him ? Don't forget, AG not official title. Should be 23 and not 25 titles that TH ever won.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    You know that Li Yongbo invited Lin Dan, Taufik, Peter Gade and Lee Chong Wei to that tournament before? Chen Long was not included.
    4 stars from 4 different countries more interesting to the spectators, compare to 4 stars from 3 countries. The spectators want L D vs TH and L D vs LCW, and not L D vs CL or CJ. It was only another training.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Honestly, I don't know about Chen Jin, seeing as he has won about half of what Taufik has won(about half the titles and half the majors) He will probably be able to play about 4 more years though so I don't think we can have this discussion yet. I think what Chen Jin is able to achieve may depend entirely by how long Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan keeps playing. Also,important point, do you believe that Lin Dan gifted Chen Jin the 2008 All England Title so that Chen Jin was able to get ranking points towards the 2008 Olympics?
    Yes. Not only 2008 AE, also 2011 Spore. But don't forget, TH never won against CJ in the major event. Not even once. 2-0 for CJ in 2009 & 2010 World Championships.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Bao Chunlai has already retired. And he has also not won many individual titles as Taufik , he is a terrific team player though probably on of the best ever(?). Their head to head versus Taufik is still very interesting though, but their individual "success" or whatever you want to call it is not as great as Taufik's, yet(Chen Long).
    TH as the most experienced MS players, surely has the advantages to win more than 23 titles, but he failed. BCL has not the same advantage. And TH won most of the title before L D era (since 2003)
    Last edited by Fortune; 10-15-2012 at 01:59 AM.

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    Giga01, please accept it. You can never win any debate with our Fortune, especially when it comes to Taufik. S/He's one of Taufik's big fan, if not the biggest. Deep inside his heart, he really idolizes Taufik. To the point of obsession, it appears to me. His extensive knowledge of Taufik's H2H record is a proof of that. Indeed, what s/he says about TH isn't quite nice, but... you know... just like when we were little kids, we used to tease, make fun of a girl we like? To imagine Fortune blushing red when he writes all those stuffs about Taufik... Oh dear, that's really cute. Very sweet of him/her.

    Taufik is indeed a great player. His charisma, his achievements, his moves... Those are what make him able to draw many kinds of fans... and our Fortune is no exception.
    Oh Taufik, how I envy you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fortune View Post
    CH never won World Championships, and not even bronze medal @ OG, also never played in Thomas Cup SF & Final from 2002 - 2006, then what is so special about CH ??? Why CH ? Why not Xia Xianze, Chen Jin or Bao Chunlai ? Surely bcoz you don't want TH looks so bad in front of L D. Won more matches, but in the total, L D still the best. L D = +395, LCW = +343, PGC = +369, TH = +269 (the data until OG 2012)PGC vs LCW first meeting was happened when Gade already 27 years and 7 months (Malaysia 2004), surely not fair to count. What Peter can do at that age ??? To be fair, we also only count the H2H between TH vs LCW when TH also 27 years and 7 months. And the result is 7 - 1 for LCW, with 5 of it ended in straight sets, plus TH only can score < 10 pts in G1 or G2. That is what TH can do against LCW when he was 27 y.o. really a nice stats. Asian Games = unofficial BWF events. And you count it into the H2H stats. How about China Badminton League or World Cup. Count or not count ? BCL beat TH in CBL this year or last year.His record is not so impressiveIf CL can win 26 titles during his career, TH/PGC still greater than him ? Don't forget, AG not official title. Should be 23 and not 25 titles that TH ever won. 4 stars from 4 different countries more interesting to the spectators, compare to 4 stars from 3 countries. The spectators want L D vs TH and L D vs LCW, and not L D vs CL or CJ. It was only another training. Yes. Not only 2008 AE, also 2011 Spore. But don't forget, TH never won against CJ in the major event. Not even once. 2-0 for CJ in 2009 & 2010 World Championships.


    TH as the most experienced MS players, surely has the advantages to win more than 23 titles, but he failed. BCL has not the same advantage. And TH won most of the title before L D era (since 2003)
    What's so special about Chen Hong you say? 13 titles, including 2 All England titles. And was he not a constant top ten player that at some point had the Nr. 1 ranking in the world? Stop trying to downplay what Chen Hong has done to make Taufik look bad.
    Xia Xuanze on the other hand did "only" win 10 titles and the same amount of major ones as Chen Hong , One World Championship Medal medal and 1 All England. His stats vs Taufik is also 2-2 on the BWF site so thas does not really make Taufik look BAD in comparison, seeing as Lin Dan's stats are 5-4 and Lee Chong Wei's is actually behind in the count by 1-2. Chen Hong was ALSO ahead of him by 2-1. So bringing Xia Xuanze into the discussion does not downplay Taufik at all.

    So... Chen Jin has won 1 major and "only" 11 titles, do you think he will be able to match Taufik's record? He has also not won more times than Taufik has vs Lin Dan since you mentioned he has been gifted the win at least 2 times. That makes it 4/6-14/16 in reality vs Lin Dan seeing as we don't know if Chen Jin would have been able to beat Lin Dan during those occasions. , so Taufiks stats might be better than Chen Jins . And Chen Jin vs LCW is 2-10 vs Lee Chong Wei, this time Taufik has much better stats. And Taufik has managed to win vs Chen Jin in a major, the 2012 All England encounter.

    Bao Chunlai's stats vs Lin Dan is 5-20, arguably worse than Taufiks, with the same amount of wins but slightly more losses. And we know that his results against Lee Chong Wei is also worse than Taufiks. His result vs Peter Gade is also worse than Taufiks ( 4-6 and Taufiks are 9-8 according to the BWF site). And again Chen Hong is ahead vs Bao with 5-2 to Chen Hong. All these stats show how great a player Chen Hong was and it only makes it even more interesting that Taufik was able to beat him so regularly . And about all these Chinese players, they never had to face each other in a Thomas or Sudirman cup so their H2H vs Lin Dan might even be worse, or perhaps better? But that is one big IF so yeah, almost impossible to discuss.

    Please scroll down to read what I think about the Asian Games.

    Also, a side note, about major tournaments... World Championship used to be only every other year right? Taufik might have won at least another one if they were an annual event before 2006? And does it not make it easier for players nowadays to win more "majors" than it was before? But yeah, there should not be any "ifs or buts" in sports, it makes arguing about it very hard.

    I do agree with you that the 4 different countries is a important point. But it was more than just another training. It showed what most people think about this era in badminton.
    I think that Chen Long will have it slightly easier than Taufik, Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan had but only because he is such a great player , so winning those titles may be easier for him. You really got me thinking about how I rate players there, thank you for that .
    If Chen Long is able to win 25 titles AND those titles include at least 4 majors(preferably one World Championship and 1 Olympic Gold, All England and Asian Games ) or more then yes, he will be as great as Taufik and Peter Gade. But do you agree about that Chen Long will probably be on another level than maybe all other players during his era, and because of that he might even dominate more than even Lee Chong Wei has done? And you do agree with me about Chen Long being from the "new" era right?

    You know that Taufik used to be a much better player before than he has been the last couple of years. Only counting his h2h after he turned 27 is not the same as counting Peter Gade's at 27. Gade's level has not deteriorated at the same pace that Taufik's has. Saying Peter Gade was not able to do anything at age 27 is simply wrong.
    In fact, so late as 2011 when Peter Gade was 34 years of age he still managed to get to 5 super series semi-finals, one final(losing in 3 sets to LCW) etc and he played a 3 set vs Lin Dan at the 2011 world championship . Age does matter for him, of course it does. But his level has never dropped as much as Taufiks did with age . Players get affected by age in slightly different ways. But if we only compare after they both turned 27 it still says that both of them only managed to win 1 time each... And PG has more losses. But I don't think that comparison is fair because of the things I mentioned above.
    So... I don't think I agree with your reasoning . The fact stands that Taufik has beaten Lee Chong Wei 8 times, something most players never will be able to do, including great players like Peter Gade, Chen Jin and even Bao Chunlai, has Lee Chong Wei actually lost 8 times to someone outside of Lin Dan? If not it is another thing that sets Taufik above most other players.

    Yea, I know about the +stats since I mentioned them before. Did you also compare Taufik's +stats to the rest of the players during this era? Because Taufik is ahead of everyone else about the same size that Lin Dan is ahead of Taufik. And if we only use the +stat that shows that Peter Gade is a better player than LCW when we know that isn't the case...

    Are you seriously not including Asian Games now? You yourself included it in the H2H Lin Dan vs Taufik in your earlier post! Of course it counts!
    At worst it is just one step below WC and All England when it comes to prestige. That's the reason all the Asian top players are participating in it. Did you see how happy Lin Dan was when he finally won it in 2010? It was then he had truly won EVERYTHING he was able to win in badminton. Quoting wikipedia: "...by the age of 28 Lin had completed the "Super Grand Slam", having won all nine major titles in world badminton: Olympic Games, World Championships, World Cup, Thomas Cup, Sudirman Cup, Super Series Masters Finals, All England Open, Asian Games, and Asia Championships, becoming the first and only player to achieve this feat.[6][7]" Now way it does not count. You know you only said that to make Taufik look worse. So of course I count it in the H2H and in Taufiks titles.

    The World Cup was only active during 2 years this era. 2005-2006. And yes I count them. Do you have the results from it? Please share it if you want.
    I don't know how seriously the top players think that CBL is. And that BCL have won over Taufik there does not change anything I said, frankly I'm not even surprised that BCL won considering the great team player he is. It still does not change the fact I mentioned about Taufik winning twice the times Bao has over LCW.

    And the last thing is simply not true. Taufik won 8 titles before 2003. And now he has won 25 titles. And to win 25 titles is not bad when those titles include a World Championship Gold medal, 2 AG gold medals and one Olympic gold medal. Bao Chunlai was on court for about 10 years. He won his first title at the 2001 Danish Open,correct? During the following ten years he managed to win "only" 7 titles. Taufik won his first title 1999, and during his following 10 years he managed to win 20 titles. Bao Chunlai has been very unlucky when it comes to his body I think but still he has done nothing to prove that he would have been able to achieve what Taufik has done.
    Again, the only way to make Taufiks achievements in this era look bad in this era is to compare him to either Lin Dan or Lee Chong Wei.

    Isn't Peter Gade the most experienced MS player right now? And he still wasn't able to win more majors than Taufik? He won slightly more titles than Taufik yes. But he never won the World Championship and neither the Olympic Gold, and quality is equally as important as quantity unless we are talking about huge differences like LCW and Taufik were LCW is probably still more successful despite not having won as many majors as Taufik.

    So... wall of text. The conclusion I draw from all these numbers is that Taufik Hidayat is the third best player of this era. Of course he was not without fault and not as a complete player like Lin Dan or Lee Chong Wei . And if you only count his H2H vs some players you may come to a different result, but if you not only compare their H2H vs Taufik but also against other players I still think Taufik comes up on top. But the amount of titles he has won and most importantly THE titles he has won places him above most players in this era with only Lee Chong Wei and Lin Dan a step above.

    Please, feel free to correct anything that might have been wrong.
    Last edited by Giga01; 10-15-2012 at 06:20 AM. Reason: Removed some unnecessary things.

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    One important player I forgot is Lee Hyun-il. He is kinda a "reverse" Chen Hong when it comes to Taufiks stats. His stats are 4-2(Asian games) vs Taufik. And his stats are negative vs other top players. 3-13 vs Lin Dan . 5-9 vs Lee Chong Wei 4-9 vs BCL etc. Worth noting though is that he has faced Taufik MUCH less than the other top players in the world. Still worth mentioning him though.

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