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Thread: Taufik Hidayat
10-18-2012, 02:28 AM #1208
10-18-2012, 05:22 AM #1209
one gain nothing for discredit another.
10-18-2012, 12:41 PM #1210
Reads like a debate between two statisticians or historians. Their arguments,stands and conclusions aside, just their data,facts and figures cited are what interest and benefit me the most for which I must admit I appreciate it. Unable to match their research, I felt constrained and reluctant to join in their discussion.
Subjectively speaking, I regard Taufik Hidayat as one of the all-time greats but definitely outside the top three who, to me, are first Lin Dan, second Zhao Jianhua, third (I 'll leave it out as it is from this point point on that arguments and debates starts to generate)....
10-18-2012, 09:39 PM #1211
Yesterday, GC's co-commentator said in length what he considers great player of the game during LCW's match against BP. He said it's not measured by what you have won but what you have contributed to the game as an ambassador, on and off the court and needless to say, LCW is one of them, so is PG.
10-19-2012, 01:17 AM #1212
as said by nokh88
i believe taufik done alot for ina badminton too.
even kenichi tago is his fans
10-19-2012, 06:58 AM #1213It's very hard to win back to back titles, even for Susi Susanti, TH, and LCW.Susi from 21 years old never played in Swedish open (1 week before AE), bcoz she really proud of AE. even Susi focus in AE, she won 3 times but lost 6 times against China WS that looks down to AE...CHN WS also played in Swedish open 1 week beforeLCW since 2005 or 2006 only focus in AE, TH since 2008 CMIIWWang Yihan = the most successful China active WS in AE. 1 gold and 1 silver. But for CBA, WYH only grade B player.Wang Shixian = the biggest loser in AE, never won even 1 match in AE = pre-A playerCBA only count OG, WC, and CBA's tournament, where the winner of OG / WC automatically graded as A class player. CBA not count mickey mouse event all england.Source : http://www.badzine.net/news/2011-chi...rosters/11018/TH vs L D = 3 - 13 ; vs LCW 7 - 13XXZ vs L D = 4 - 5 ; vs LCW 2 - 1CH vs L D = 5 - 5 ; vs LCW 5 - 5H Yamada vs L D = 0 - 1 ; vs LCW 1 - 1Ong Ewe Hock vs L D = 2 - 2 ; vs LCW 2 - 0Park TS vs L D = 0 - 1 ; vs LCW 1 - 0"TH stats vs L D / LCW / PGC is better than BCL vs L D / LCW. So why TH can't make the better stats vs BCL itself ? Hahaha . Let me ask you 1 question : what is the point to involved other player when it is useless ? "
10-19-2012, 07:04 AM #1214
Last edited by Fortune; 10-19-2012 at 07:15 AM.
10-19-2012, 07:08 AM #1215
Last edited by Fortune; 10-19-2012 at 07:17 AM.
10-19-2012, 07:13 AM #1216
In the meantime...
Another Taufik Hidayat video....
10-19-2012, 07:20 AM #1217
10-19-2012, 07:26 AM #1218
10-19-2012, 07:35 AM #1219
10-19-2012, 07:38 AM #1220
10-20-2012, 07:21 AM #1221
"I think my word is clear : "big blow" for XXZ and not CH. Being a reigning world champion, but not selected for OG it's really hard to accept. Before the big blow, XXZ won more titles than Chen Hong 9 vs 8. And who he beat to claim the 9th title ? It's Chen Hong."
Yes. I understand how it may be hard for XXZ to continue to win when he was treated that way. But it still does not take away that Chen Hong won 13 titles. More than most players will. Unless he was facing XXZ in every final after the big blow and thus XXZ didn't have the confidence to win anymore, it does not take away the fact that Chen Hong was able to win his titles.
"I think in the video, Taufik says AE is just another super series ?"
But most people disagreed with him and said he only used that as an excuse to why he hasn't won it yet. I believe you quoted him in an article saying that during 2004 one of the title he wanted to win was AE, correct? And if you are only going to agree with Taufik thinks then you have to include that AG and SEA games are major titles too. But what one player says does not matter THAT much unless the world of badminton agrees with him.
"What is the prestige to win AE ? History ? Then where is the history factor when BWF decided AE 06 = 4 stars tourney only, the same with ABC 06 ?That made the game so special ?"
All England is one of the oldest tournament there is and many players that have won it rate is as the highlight of their careers. It used to be the unofficial World championship until BWF started their own one. As TBH so nicely puts it : Memorable Sporting Achievements:
2007 All England champion - "All England is also my favourite tournament as it's the oldest tournament."
And Tine Baun/Rasmussen : Memorable Sporting Achievements:
"The All-England titles in 2008 and 2010 - I love the All England, it's my favourite and the most prestigious tournament and the city is absolutely perfect with everything within walking distance. Winning my very first big achievement in Japan Open (World Superseries) in 2007. But every title has a very special place in my heart."
And Peter Gade also mentions that AE among his greatest achievements :
Memorable Sporting Achievements:
"All England Winner 1999, Grand Prix Finals 1999, Japan Open 1999, Thomas Cup 2000 In KL beating Malaysia at home in front of 14000 fans. "
And of course the All England site calls it the most prestigious tournament, but yeah, probably shouldn't count that.
So most players and fans think that All England is a very special tournament. Maybe not a major but at least a step above regular super series/premier(?) tournaments.
But having AE rated above the rest would not work for BWF. It would mean that there would be too many big tournaments that you really NEEDED to work for during a full year. You can't even have OG and WC in the same year. So even if most players and fan thinks it's a special or major title it would just not work.
"Do you think the majority of China & Korea players attend AE with fresh condition most of the times just like they do in OG & WC ? No ! Why ? Bcoz AE only mickey mouse title for them. Really different for the majority players from Malaysia, and especially INA players. Playing badly in AE is not a shame for CHN & KOR players Jung comment can't change the status of AE. "
You have kinda much proved to me that China does not rate the AE so highly but not that Korea don't. Jung's comment was the only one I could find about Korea and All England. So as one of the more successful Koreans right now I think that what he says matter.
"It's not like that, but like this : But what about China & Korea players ? Totally different. For them, exhausted for mickey mouse event AE after play in Swedish / Germany is not a problem. If they can win AE, good. If they can't, also no problem. Mickey mouse AE surely different from the major like OG and WC."
It sure seems like China does not rate the AE so highly. But I don't see it for the Koreans. The link you posted about how china teams rate their players also had some weirdness to it. Like... why i Du Pengyu a pre-a player? He hasn't won anything China considers a major yes? Not a medal in WC either... So that link is not proof that AE doesn't matter...
"First you said the link is wrong, but then you said you don't know how China thinks abut AE. LOL.
If you don't know how China think, then why you said the link is wrong ? As I said it before, AE = mickey mouse title for China.China & Korea (2 strongest countries in AE modern era, won > 60% of total AE title) looks down to all england. It's more than enough."
In the link you said China AND Korea. I only empathized that. If you have proof that Korea look down on AE than show it.
"You only involve CH when L D vs TH. Not XXZ, and not BCL, bcoz you wanna make TH looks good. and you only involve PGC when LCW vs TH. Why ? The same reason. Why not BCL ? Bcoz TH looks really bad. . You only involve the player that can make TH not so bad. Why LHI, BCL, CL and CJ not involved in L D vs TH ? "
Gah. I did include most of that didn't I? I even had a separate post about LHI! Check post 1168 # 1172# and 1173 # But it looks you are right about CL and LD so here : 5-0 to LD 7-4 LCW vs CL and 2 /3 - 3/4 for CL. One retire there for Taufik but Chen Long was in the lead so he might have won it anyway, but TH won a 3 setter the year before so who knows...
Read again. For CBA : CBA's tournament > mickey mouse all england. Who said CBA consider AE = major event ? https://www.sbg.ac.at/populorum/badm...-to-championCH only played against weak players from weak teams (USA & Japan) in 2004 TC, but not against strong players from INA, KOR and Denmark . And from 2000 - 2006, CH never played in SF and Final of the Thomas Cup . But why you include CH and not Xia or Bao, we all know the reason
I DID INCLUDE XIA and BAO! I mentioned all of them and most of their stats! I only mentioned CH slightly more because he has good stats against every other player except Taufik!
go to Dec 2010 ranking, and click Lin Dan, see if BWF count AG or not ? If BWF not count for L D, then why they count it for TH ?
IBF / BWF only count AG until 1994, SEAG until 95 or 97, East AG until 93. But IBF / BWF never count World Cup and World GP Finals. If TH win AG 94, then yes, it count. TH won 02 and 06 AG, surely not count. http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14955 And also AG 02 & 06 won by TH.
Just because BWF does not count DOES NOT mean that the players and fans doesn't, most importantly the players. Everywhere I read about AG it is considered a major title. Lin Dan thinks it is, http://www.badzine.net/news/asian-ga...-player/10138/ Badzine does: " "China’s Lin Dan received the “Most Valuable Player” award on Friday in Guangzhou for his achievement in the badminton event, scooping the only major title which had eluded him until now" And listen to what GC's co-commentator says when Taufik wins it in 2006. "...he cares about winning the matches that matter". And Lin Dan mentions it as one of his greatest achivements.
So,yea. It looks like almost everyone rates it up there as a major. Every(?) Asian player and all the badminton commentators. The only reason I can think of it's not included in world ranking is that it simply would give every asian player a huge advantage of having more than 1 regional tournament(ABC) when Europe has nothing like it. But I'm sure that for asian players and the commentators and fans it is a major tournament. Whatever BWF has for reasons for not including it.
"Minus 10 to L D and minus 6 to LCW is an indication how good taufik is ? Compare it to other MS and see how good taufik is ? hahaha Useless point. BCL can beat TH most of the times, that's why I said it is useless. TH so inferior in front of BCL "
Those stats are just slightly of and you know that. I think we agreed that it isn't only BWFs H2H that counts, yes? And Lin Dan can beat LCW most of the times. It does NOT take away the titles LCW has won when Lin Dan didn't participate in that particular tournament.
10-20-2012, 07:46 AM #1222
use different colour to differentiate the paragraph
10-20-2012, 08:10 AM #1223
"Sarcastic ? Prove it. Which post ? "
Post 1178# and all the the "hahahaha" and stuff like that.
"I'm the first one ? Fantastic. So I'm the first person in BC that knows the fact that BWF not count the result in AG since 1998. GoodDong Jiong win - lose records : 154 - 52. I count it already, include the error Swedish 95, it should be 2 - 1, but they record it 3 - 2. AG 94 count. AG 98 not count. Start from 1998, BWF didn't count AG result, surely the 02 and 06 AG won by TH also not count. If win lose records and H2H not counts, then where is the logic if BWF count the title ? http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/fi...33E64CC&q=4856 "
I've written lengths about AG and that it is a major title, at least for Asian player.
Nice find, those are his stat vs Taufik, yes? If you have the time and energy could you point out his stat vs LD LCW etc ?
"That's the fact. TH knows he is not so good. He can't win 20 titles during his career if he not compete in lower level tournaments likes india open, us, canada, abc and etc. Lower level only attract few top MS, that is suitable for him. "
And he also competes in higher level tournaments. Criticizing another player for entering many tournaments is just weird. This year Taufik has entered 19 tournaments vs LCW 15 and LD 13(LD probably just enters the big ones now though) but still. Hasn't it kinda alway been like this? That he enters very many tournament? If I remember correctly he used to do that the years before also.
As I said before, counting from GP level and above i a fair thing to do. We're not going to take away all of LCW's GP titles right? But seriously we cannot know why Taufik enter "low level" tournaments, unless he tell us why. Plus I don't think counting ABC at that level just because of the ranking it give is fair. Just look at the winners and participants. It is the top players.
"Most of Asian players prioritize AG than Denmark open, so can we conclude AG >Denmark SS ? How much ranking points for AG winner ? Compare it with Den SS winner. One thing also, all of CHN top players absent in INA 2010 due to CBL. So CBL > INA SS ?"
For Asian players AG is probably more important than Den SS, yes. Nowadays you don't win AG for ranking points. I have already mentioned AG so many times so just read that every time AG comes up. That 2010 INA open was a one of thing right? China has won it the years after and the years before. And 2010 LCW won. So it was "only" Chinas top players that didn't participate during that particular year. So top player don't think it is a small tournament. Look at the other years.
" That's why I said, you can win OG / WC if you are lucky. But luck didn't happened most of the times, that's why TH only can win 21 titles, and needs > 95 wins to surpass Gade achievement. Totally different case. L D and LCW in OG 08 was fit, and also both players has one day rest. In WC 05, TH was fit, but L D was extremely tired after beat PGC in 96 minutes. In Japan 05, even TH said he lost to Chen Hong bcoz he was too tired after beat PGC before. If TH can make that excuse, why L D can not ?http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...34213&langid=5 "
It was not by luck that TH won OG or WC. I believe you have heard all the argument against that before. Taufik beat many top players to reach both of those finals. Before the WC 2005 final TH had been on court for 271 minutes and LD 250 ! I know Lin Dan last match was much longer but Taufik had been on court longer during the tournament! During 2011 WC Lee Chong Wei was on court 155 minutes whereas Lin Dan was 230 minutes! These players are all professionals! If the minute on court or whatever affected them this much surely Lee Chong Wei would have won 2011 WC?
Tiredness is not an excuse in this case, Taufik was also making excuses, and luck certainly isn't. And please... Taufik really deserved that 2004 OG medal. On his way to the final he met good players. Woong, Peter Gade... Ponsana(that had earlier defeted in form Susilo). And his opponent, Shon, had also defeated very good players to reach the final, Chen Hong(that had earlier defeated Lee Chong Wei and Sony(that had earlier defeated Park that had defeated Bao) .Once again, no luck. You can't blame Taufik for keeping his head cool and playing at his highest level just because most of the Chinese players failed to do so. Not luck. It is sport we are talking about. Unless there is a injury or something, no luck.
"The same goes to CJ. And that's prove my word. If you are lucky, you can win OG / WC. His level of play is normal, even from 1998 - 2003. That's why during the period, he was only being world #1 for 3 - 4 weeks. Imagine, 6 years of career, with so many major event experienced but only max 4 weeks in #1 position, even before the emerging of Lin DanThen what is the point you make the H2H stats until 2006 (post # 1157) if then you ignore the H2H stats just bcoz TH looks so bad ? so final decision : who is greater ? LCW or Taufik ? Still the same answer, LCW > TH ? "
Taufik wasn't allowed to play many tournaments during that time-span was he? Wasn't that one of the reasons he left Indonesia Badminton? I don't ignore H2H the stats. I only said that it isn't only H2H that matters vs BCL. I started posting the pre-2006 H2hs becaue I thought it was interesting that TH's H2h was the way they were during his prime.
And yea, still LCW. Look, you only have to look at LCW playing(preferably live) to understand instinctively that he is the second best player of this era. That is the level of play he i playing at right now.
10-20-2012, 08:35 AM #1224
"That's the point. TH is loved but not necessarily he is one of the greatest."
Don't forget, so many Indonesians in China."
He would not be included in the 4 kings unless he was considered one of the greatest.
TH only win once out of 8 duel vs LCW, what so proud of it ? What is the problem if TH > CJ @ mickey mouse AE ? And CJ win it again 1 week after
We compared Taufik to PG. And I also said that it was a comparison that I did not like. It's a win vs CJ in a tournament that most people consider a major(watch earlier posts) and you said that Taufik never won in majors.
"TC and SC also major. Chen Long surely has at least one major. CJ and BCL surely has more than 2."
Gah. This is a tough issue. TC and SC are team events. So in my mind they aren't majors. But many players and fans think they are so I am probably wrong about this. The objections I have is that if we count TC and SC, China will always be ahead in majors this era. They have simply had MANY more players at the highest level. It makes it slightly "unfair" to the rest of the world. Because there will be INDIVIDUAL players that win matches vs China in the finals but still doesn't get the Thomas or Sudirman Cup title, right? So I don't know about this one... Just look at the records from 1996 onward. Sometimes individual players have managed to win matches vs China or whatever country won it and lost the title. And if I player LOSES one of his matches he is still able to win Thomas or Sudirman Cup...
So yeah... I think they are the biggest team events there is in badminton for what that is worth...
"Before PG was 27, TH already played in 2 TC, 1 SC, 1 OG and 3 WC. Need more experience ? Do we have another major event ? If PGC still amazing @ 35, then he was much more amazing 10 - 12 years ago. TH only can win most of the times when gade was 27 years."
If we are talking about years on the tour and maturity as a person then yes maybe TH needed more experience, remember that he was very young when he entered the tour. And PG was able to win half of the times the faced each other AFTER he turned 27.
But I think experience is far from everything in badminton... If it was ONLY experience and age that mattered then TH should have never stopped winning vs PG when he first was able to do that, his experience should be enough and Gade should be too old. Looking at the H2H between those 2 shows that it isn't the case with both of them being able to win after TH turned 27. So your argument doesn't stand.
"When you were young, surely you moves much faster. And not only TH, but also every other players.
Gade also moves much faster when he still young."
But particularly TH. Like so many others have said, he moved faster and played better and kinda lost his "killer instinct" around 2005-2006. It was not simply a matter of age.
Also L D and LCW. But the different is, L D and LCW can improve their skills, while TH can't
PGC only can win 2 times vs LCW, bcoz they start to played when gade = 27 yrs, but that only 2 matches, the other 16 matches start when gade was 30 yrs. At 27, TH only can win once vs LCW.
Poor TH. This is fair.
And I have said why it's not fair . So just because someone won or lost vs PG after he was 27 his before he was 27 doesn't count? That is not a fair thing to say.
If not only experience, then what else ?
You mentioned that LCW and LD was able to expand and improve their game. LCW used to be more passive and not as explosive as he is now.
"Around 3, 4 or 5. Still need some research before I can decide."
I'm honestly looking forward to it. Please clearly state your reasons for it etc.
I was far too tired writing this so I'm sure there are plenty of errors, so feel free to correct me about anything.
Last edited by Giga01; 10-20-2012 at 08:48 AM.
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