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Thread: Taufik Hidayat

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    Quote Originally Posted by cobalt View Post
    True.... so true!

    BUT....
    "Earth calling maxout... come in, maxout..... Sir, I think we've lost maxout to the alternate reality..."

    Look, he is a professional, and he is not from a team that believes in assists. He won't be getting any free rides. Second-stringers from everywhere beat him nowadays; Simon and Sony beat him now, when they wouldn't have stood a chance 2 years ago...

    Taufik's best days are behind him; he is a spent force now, and he knows it; he is just playing out his contractual obligations until next year. But I still feel privileged to be able to watch the magician at work. I'll take what he can give, and be very, very happy for it.
    That's why, I use "IF" ...

    But like the saying, "One more for the road .... " , logically and rationally, it is not going to happen but, somehow, I got a strong gut feeling, Taufik will do a real "show stopper" and "turn back the clock" , ONE LAST TIME ....

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    one gain nothing for discredit another.

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    Reads like a debate between two statisticians or historians. Their arguments,stands and conclusions aside, just their data,facts and figures cited are what interest and benefit me the most for which I must admit I appreciate it. Unable to match their research, I felt constrained and reluctant to join in their discussion.

    Subjectively speaking, I regard Taufik Hidayat as one of the all-time greats but definitely outside the top three who, to me, are first Lin Dan, second Zhao Jianhua, third (I 'll leave it out as it is from this point point on that arguments and debates starts to generate)....

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    Yesterday, GC's co-commentator said in length what he considers great player of the game during LCW's match against BP. He said it's not measured by what you have won but what you have contributed to the game as an ambassador, on and off the court and needless to say, LCW is one of them, so is PG.

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    as said by nokh88
    i believe taufik done alot for ina badminton too.
    even kenichi tago is his fans
    hehe

  6. #1213
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    How did the "big blow" affect Chen Hong's ability to win titles? Did they only send Chen Hong to individual tournaments or what was the result?
    I think my word is clear : "big blow" for XXZ and not CH. Being a reigning world champion, but not selected for OG it's really hard to accept. Before the big blow, XXZ won more titles than Chen Hong 9 vs 8. And who he beat to claim the 9th title ? It's Chen Hong.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    The All England is, in most people minds, a major tournament. Just check the "Taufik Hidayat's opinion about the All England" thread.
    I think in the video, Taufik says AE is just another super series ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Quoting repentedboy : It's the opinion of many and the participation that matters. All England's attraction is not the money but the prestige.
    What is the prestige to win AE ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    It's the prestige and history of the tournament that made the game so special.
    History ? Then where is the history factor when BWF decided AE 06 = 4 stars tourney only, the same with ABC 06 ? That made the game so special ? Do you think the majority of China & Korea players attend AE with fresh condition most of the times just like they do in OG & WC ? No ! Why ? Bcoz AE only mickey mouse title for them. Really different for the majority players from Malaysia, and especially INA players. Playing badly in AE is not a shame for CHN & KOR players
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    And also Jung Jae Sung on his BWF page : Memorable Sporting Achievements:"2008 All-England title - I really wanted to win that title"You could argue that Jung did not have so many majors to choose from, or that it hasn't been updated recently but why All England and not some other Super Series? The year before they had even won the Korea Open, and still All England is rated above that?
    Jung comment can't change the status of AE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    The results from the All england vs German open during the 21st century have 11 non China or Korea winners in German vs 14 in All England, not that huge of a difference. You could read that either way. For the rest of the world, maybe it is German open that is a small tournament? And that because of that they focus more on All England instead, and as a result are able to sometimes win over Korea and China ?
    It's not like that, but like this :
    It's very hard to win back to back titles, even for Susi Susanti, TH, and LCW.
    Susi from 21 years old never played in Swedish open (1 week before AE), bcoz she really proud of AE. even Susi focus in AE, she won 3 times but lost 6 times against China WS that looks down to AE...CHN WS also played in Swedish open 1 week before
    LCW since 2005 or 2006 only focus in AE, TH since 2008 CMIIW
    But what about China & Korea players ? Totally different. For them, exhausted for mickey mouse event AE after play in Swedish / Germany is not a problem. If they can win AE, good. If they can't, also no problem. Mickey mouse AE surely different from the major like OG and WC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    So the link you posted about it being a small tournament for China AND KOREA is wrong. I don't know how China thinks about the tournament though, you you may be right in that statement. Lin Dan's quote about the 100th All England comes to mind.
    First you said the link is wrong, but then you said you don't know how China thinks abut AE. LOL. If you don't know how China think, then why you said the link is wrong ?
    Wang Yihan = the most successful China active WS in AE. 1 gold and 1 silver. But for CBA, WYH only grade B player.
    Wang Shixian = the biggest loser in AE, never won even 1 match in AE = pre-A player
    CBA only count OG, WC, and CBA's tournament, where the winner of OG / WC automatically graded as A class player. CBA not count mickey mouse event all england.Source : http://www.badzine.net/news/2011-chi...rosters/11018/
    As I said it before, AE = mickey mouse title for China.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    But still, in most peoples minds ,including mine, and considering the above facts it IS a major tournament and I believe it should be counted as such.
    China & Korea (2 strongest countries in AE modern era, won > 60% of total AE title) looks down to all england. It's more than enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I did involve the other players?
    You only involve CH when L D vs TH. Not XXZ, and not BCL, bcoz you wanna make TH looks good. and you only involve PGC when LCW vs TH. Why ? The same reason. Why not BCL ? Bcoz TH looks really bad. . You only involve the player that can make TH not so bad. Why LHI, BCL, CL and CJ not involved in L D vs TH ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I don't quite follow you here. Considering the All England is a major title he won at least 1 after the "big blow". And I still don't see how the big blow affected Chen Hong's ability to win more titles than Xia.
    Read again. For CBA : CBA's tournament > mickey mouse all england. Who said CBA consider AE = major event ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I guess Xia was in better shape during that tournament? Do you have the complete TC China team stats during the period they both played? Cause that would be more interesting than only mentioning 2004 TC...
    https://www.sbg.ac.at/populorum/badm...-to-championCH only played against weak players from weak teams (USA & Japan) in 2004 TC, but not against strong players from INA, KOR and Denmark . And from 2000 - 2006, CH never played in SF and Final of the Thomas Cup . But why you include CH and not Xia or Bao, we all know the reason
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I think I made my point about AG. If you need more proof only read it on Lin Dans's official BWF page: Memorable Sporting Achievements:Beijing 2008 Olympic Champion, Thomas Cup Team Champion (2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012), 2010 Guangzhou Asian Games Champion, Sudirman Cup Mixed Team Championships Champion (2007, 2009, 2011), 2011 World Champion, 2011 BWF World Superseries Finals Champion. And yes, before you point that out, I know he does not mention AE.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Yes, Lin Dan looks better, that's because he is a better player than Taufik. I never tried to make Taufik look better than Lin Dan. But it also gives Taufik 2 titles, 2 major ones.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    But AG does count, at least for the players and fans it does.
    go to Dec 2010 ranking, and click Lin Dan, see if BWF count AG or not ? If BWF not count for L D, then why they count it for TH ? IBF / BWF only count AG until 1994, SEAG until 95 or 97, East AG until 93. But IBF / BWF never count World Cup and World GP Finals. If TH win AG 94, then yes, it count. TH won 02 and 06 AG, surely not count. http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14955
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    At most you can take away SEA games because that is a VERY regional tournament...
    And also AG 02 & 06 won by TH.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    It needs to be included, to show how good a player Taufik is, it IS IMPORTANT to know that he was able to win more times against LD and LCW than most other players in the world! And for his result against those other players, I have no idea. But it does not take away Taufiks results vs LCW, LD, and PG.
    TH vs L D = 3 - 13 ; vs LCW 7 - 13
    XXZ vs L D = 4 - 5 ; vs LCW 2 - 1
    CH vs L D = 5 - 5 ; vs LCW 5 - 5
    H Yamada vs L D = 0 - 1 ; vs LCW 1 - 1
    Ong Ewe Hock vs L D = 2 - 2 ; vs LCW 2 - 0
    Park TS vs L D = 0 - 1 ; vs LCW 1 - 0
    Minus 10 to L D and minus 6 to LCW is an indication how good taufik is ? Compare it to other MS and see how good taufik is ? hahaha
    "TH stats vs L D / LCW / PGC is better than BCL vs L D / LCW. So why TH can't make the better stats vs BCL itself ? Hahaha . Let me ask you 1 question : what is the point to involved other player when it is useless ? "
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Read the above.
    Useless point. BCL can beat TH most of the times, that's why I said it is useless. TH so inferior in front of BCL

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Please stop being sarcastic and the like. It is completely unnecessary and it makes you look worse than you are.
    Sarcastic ? Prove it. Which post ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I can only speak for AG and I did in my earlier post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Yes, I know i should not have quoted wikipedia, it was stupid of me.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    You are the first one I hear about that does not count AG as a major tournament when it seems like almost everyone, player and fan, does!
    I'm the first one ? Fantastic. So I'm the first person in BC that knows the fact that BWF not count the result in AG since 1998. Good
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I never said I did not count CBL. I have mentioned AG, so that makes it 23 titles for Taufik. When it comes to h2h between players we should, if we can, include every meeting between them in a competition setting yes? EVERY meeting except for friendly or charity matches?
    Dong Jiong win - lose records : 154 - 52. I count it already, include the error Swedish 95, it should be 2 - 1, but they record it 3 - 2. AG 94 count. AG 98 not count. Start from 1998, BWF didn't count AG result, surely the 02 and 06 AG won by TH also not count. If win lose records and H2H not counts, then where is the logic if BWF count the title ? http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/fi...33E64CC&q=4856
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Those things here are precisely what it is impossible to discuss. Almost only "ifs" and buts". We can not know if BCL would have been able to win in those occasions. What tournament Taufik chooses to play in is up to him. Counting GP level and above is a fair thing to do.
    That's the fact. TH knows he is not so good. He can't win 20 titles during his career if he not compete in lower level tournaments likes india open, us, canada, abc and etc. Lower level only attract few top MS, that is suitable for him
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    The SS tournaments did not start untill 2007. And, important note, the other Asia top players was away for AG preparation? Does not that also proves it is a big and major tournament? Almost all those things are ifs and buts.
    Most of Asian players prioritize AG than Denmark open, so can we conclude AG >Denmark SS ? How much ranking points for AG winner ? Compare it with Den SS winner. One thing also, all of CHN top players absent in INA 2010 due to CBL. So CBL > INA SS ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Don't go there. WC and OG was not just "another title". It was not Taufiks fault that he wasn't able to face Chen Hong or Lin Dan in 2004, it was their faults.
    That's why I said, you can win OG / WC if you are lucky. But luck didn't happened most of the times, that's why TH only can win 21 titles, and needs > 95 wins to surpass Gade achievement.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    And just because LD was tired it still does not take away anything from Taufiks 2005 win. That's almost like taking away LD's 2008 OG medal because Lee Chong Wei did not put up so much resistance.
    Totally different case. L D and LCW in OG 08 was fit, and also both players has one day rest. In WC 05, TH was fit, but L D was extremely tired after beat PGC in 96 minutes. In Japan 05, even TH said he lost to Chen Hong bcoz he was too tired after beat PGC before. If TH can make that excuse, why L D can not ? http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...34213&langid=5
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    They participated in the tournament, only they lost earlier.
    The same goes to CJ. And that's prove my word. If you are lucky, you can win OG / WC.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    All of the above, and his level of play during his prime. Second in major titles, 4th in titles, H2H arguably not top 4 but at least top 10 all things considered. And in win/lose 4th. I understand more that you may be able to come to a different conclusion than me, but for me that makes him the third best this era.
    His level of play is normal, even from 1998 - 2003. That's why during the period, he was only being world #1 for 3 - 4 weeks. Imagine, 6 years of career, with so many major event experienced but only max 4 weeks in #1 position, even before the emerging of Lin Dan
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    TH, but not only because of H2H but, everything else.
    Then what is the point you make the H2H stats until 2006 (post # 1157) if then you ignore the H2H stats just bcoz TH looks so bad ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Hmm. Majors are more important to me, but the sheer amount of titles Lee Chong Wei has won still shows more greatness. And also that he has silver in every major.
    so final decision : who is greater ? LCW or Taufik ? Still the same answer, LCW > TH ?
    Last edited by Fortune; 10-19-2012 at 06:15 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Perhaps not recently but overall. Taufik is loved in China, correct?
    That's the point. TH is loved but not necessarily he is one of the greatest. Don't forget, so many Indonesians in China.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    You also have to consider the amazing toll on his body. It is indeed easy for Lin Dan nowadays. But not for every other player all the time. You know that Taufik won over LCW in 2010 WC, by then Lee Chong Wei should have enough experience yes? And he beat Chen Jin at the 2012 All England?
    TH only win once out of 8 duel vs LCW, what so proud of it ? What is the problem if TH > CJ @ mickey mouse AE ? And CJ win it again 1 week after
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    But Lee Chong Wei has won almost DOUBLE the titles Taufik has won. If he had only won about 2-3 more but no majors I would still consider Taufik the better player when it comes to results. So I stand by what I said. We have already discussed the amount of titles needed. Chen Long will without a doubt surpass Taufik, I think I said that.
    TC and SC also major. Chen Long surely has at least one major. CJ and BCL surely has more than 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I could use your logic and says that before PG was 27 Taufik need more experience to win or whatever.
    Before PG was 27, TH already played in 2 TC, 1 SC, 1 OG and 3 WC. Need more experience ? Do we have another major event ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I never said it was only stamina related.But look at what Peter Gade is able to achieve at 35 ? Most players will not be able to do that.
    If PGC still amazing @ 35, then he was much more amazing 10 - 12 years ago. TH only can win most of the times when gade was 27 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    Take a look of how Taufik plays around 2004-2006. He moves much faster and does not use the backhand as regularly as he does now. So, yeah, I think he was better back then.
    When you were young, surely you moves much faster. And not only TH, but also every other players. Gade also moves much faster when he still young. Also L D and LCW. But the different is, L D and LCW can improve their skills, while TH can't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    If he only started to meet LCW at a certain age, then I count it from that.
    PGC only can win 2 times vs LCW, bcoz they start to played when gade = 27 yrs, but that only 2 matches, the other 16 matches start when gade was 30 yrs. At 27, TH only can win once vs LCW. Poor TH. This is fair.
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    See above and also: I don't agree that it was only experience that put Taufik above LCW. LCW has become a better player than Taufik in other ways. And IT STILL does not take away that Taufik has won 8 times etc.
    If not only experience, then what else ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Giga01 View Post
    I agree. But no hahaha. I also want to know... Where do you place Taufik and why?
    Around 3, 4 or 5. Still need some research before I can decide.
    Last edited by Fortune; 10-19-2012 at 06:17 AM.

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    In the meantime...

    Another Taufik Hidayat video....


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    Quote Originally Posted by limsy View Post
    wowi saw some fanatic here
    If I say BCL is greater than LCW, and Chen Hong is greater than Taufik...and there are someone give long explanation to prove who actually greater, so it is called fanatic also ? And interestingly, you have no comment to Giga01

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jagdpanther View Post
    Relax, my friend.Fanatics/extremists make only a few percent of the community. But please note that it's those fanatics/extremists whose bark is loudest. Solution? Here in Indonesia (and perhaps in Malaysia too) we have a saying, "Anjing menggonggong, khafilah berlalu."
    Not only in DetikForum, but also in here. Every time I post something that can proved Susi and TH is not the greatest, they like to say it. (Anjing = Dog). I know it's hard for them to accept the fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxout View Post
    Apart from age catching up, I think Taufik has lost his "eye of the tiger" ... the HUNGER of 2003-2004, when he ruled supreme and conquered all before him except ALL ENGLAND ...
    2003 - 2004 ? Except all england only ? Hmm. Wrong statement. He only can win 4 titles, with one of it (ABC 04), only a few top MS participated, bcoz they already qualify for OG 04. Lose 03 World Championships, TC 04 in Jkt, no open title in Europe even until mid 2010, and no CHN - KOR - JPN title until now

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    Quote Originally Posted by maxout View Post
    To me, whenever I see the draw of a tournament, I always regard Taufik as Lin Dan's nightmare while Lin Dan is Lee Chong Wei's and LCW is Taufik's hahahaha ... vicious triangle - something like "rock, scissors and paper" !!
    The fact is : L D, CL and CJ as Taufik's nightmare

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    "I think my word is clear : "big blow" for XXZ and not CH. Being a reigning world champion, but not selected for OG it's really hard to accept. Before the big blow, XXZ won more titles than Chen Hong 9 vs 8. And who he beat to claim the 9th title ? It's Chen Hong."

    Yes. I understand how it may be hard for XXZ to continue to win when he was treated that way. But it still does not take away that Chen Hong won 13 titles. More than most players will. Unless he was facing XXZ in every final after the big blow and thus XXZ didn't have the confidence to win anymore, it does not take away the fact that Chen Hong was able to win his titles.

    "I think in the video, Taufik says AE is just another super series ?"

    But most people disagreed with him and said he only used that as an excuse to why he hasn't won it yet. I believe you quoted him in an article saying that during 2004 one of the title he wanted to win was AE, correct? And if you are only going to agree with Taufik thinks then you have to include that AG and SEA games are major titles too. But what one player says does not matter THAT much unless the world of badminton agrees with him.

    "What is the prestige to win AE ? History ? Then where is the history factor when BWF decided AE 06 = 4 stars tourney only, the same with ABC 06 ?That made the game so special ?"

    All England is one of the oldest tournament there is and many players that have won it rate is as the highlight of their careers. It used to be the unofficial World championship until BWF started their own one. As TBH so nicely puts it : Memorable Sporting Achievements:
    2007 All England champion - "All England is also my favourite tournament as it's the oldest tournament."
    And Tine Baun/Rasmussen : Memorable Sporting Achievements:
    "The All-England titles in 2008 and 2010 - I love the All England, it's my favourite and the most prestigious tournament and the city is absolutely perfect with everything within walking distance. Winning my very first big achievement in Japan Open (World Superseries) in 2007. But every title has a very special place in my heart."
    And Peter Gade also mentions that AE among his greatest achievements :

    Memorable Sporting Achievements:
    "All England Winner 1999, Grand Prix Finals 1999, Japan Open 1999, Thomas Cup 2000 In KL beating Malaysia at home in front of 14000 fans. "
    And of course the All England site calls it the most prestigious tournament, but yeah, probably shouldn't count that.

    So most players and fans think that All England is a very special tournament. Maybe not a major but at least a step above regular super series/premier(?) tournaments.
    But having AE rated above the rest would not work for BWF. It would mean that there would be too many big tournaments that you really NEEDED to work for during a full year. You can't even have OG and WC in the same year. So even if most players and fan thinks it's a special or major title it would just not work.

    "Do you think the majority of China & Korea players attend AE with fresh condition most of the times just like they do in OG & WC ? No ! Why ? Bcoz AE only mickey mouse title for them. Really different for the majority players from Malaysia, and especially INA players. Playing badly in AE is not a shame for CHN & KOR players Jung comment can't change the status of AE. "

    You have kinda much proved to me that China does not rate the AE so highly but not that Korea don't. Jung's comment was the only one I could find about Korea and All England. So as one of the more successful Koreans right now I think that what he says matter.

    "It's not like that, but like this : But what about China & Korea players ? Totally different. For them, exhausted for mickey mouse event AE after play in Swedish / Germany is not a problem. If they can win AE, good. If they can't, also no problem. Mickey mouse AE surely different from the major like OG and WC."

    It sure seems like China does not rate the AE so highly. But I don't see it for the Koreans. The link you posted about how china teams rate their players also had some weirdness to it. Like... why i Du Pengyu a pre-a player? He hasn't won anything China considers a major yes? Not a medal in WC either... So that link is not proof that AE doesn't matter...

    "First you said the link is wrong, but then you said you don't know how China thinks abut AE. LOL.
    If you don't know how China think, then why you said the link is wrong ? As I said it before, AE = mickey mouse title for China.China & Korea (2 strongest countries in AE modern era, won > 60% of total AE title) looks down to all england. It's more than enough."

    In the link you said China AND Korea. I only empathized that. If you have proof that Korea look down on AE than show it.

    "You only involve CH when L D vs TH. Not XXZ, and not BCL, bcoz you wanna make TH looks good. and you only involve PGC when LCW vs TH. Why ? The same reason. Why not BCL ? Bcoz TH looks really bad. . You only involve the player that can make TH not so bad. Why LHI, BCL, CL and CJ not involved in L D vs TH ? "

    Gah. I did include most of that didn't I? I even had a separate post about LHI! Check post 1168 # 1172# and 1173 # But it looks you are right about CL and LD so here : 5-0 to LD 7-4 LCW vs CL and 2 /3 - 3/4 for CL. One retire there for Taufik but Chen Long was in the lead so he might have won it anyway, but TH won a 3 setter the year before so who knows...


    Read again. For CBA : CBA's tournament > mickey mouse all england. Who said CBA consider AE = major event ? https://www.sbg.ac.at/populorum/badm...-to-championCH only played against weak players from weak teams (USA & Japan) in 2004 TC, but not against strong players from INA, KOR and Denmark . And from 2000 - 2006, CH never played in SF and Final of the Thomas Cup . But why you include CH and not Xia or Bao, we all know the reason

    I DID INCLUDE XIA and BAO! I mentioned all of them and most of their stats! I only mentioned CH slightly more because he has good stats against every other player except Taufik!

    go to Dec 2010 ranking, and click Lin Dan, see if BWF count AG or not ? If BWF not count for L D, then why they count it for TH ?
    IBF / BWF only count AG until 1994, SEAG until 95 or 97, East AG until 93. But IBF / BWF never count World Cup and World GP Finals. If TH win AG 94, then yes, it count. TH won 02 and 06 AG, surely not count. http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14955 And also AG 02 & 06 won by TH.

    Just because BWF does not count DOES NOT mean that the players and fans doesn't, most importantly the players. Everywhere I read about AG it is considered a major title. Lin Dan thinks it is, http://www.badzine.net/news/asian-ga...-player/10138/ Badzine does: " "China’s Lin Dan received the “Most Valuable Player” award on Friday in Guangzhou for his achievement in the badminton event, scooping the only major title which had eluded him until now" And listen to what GC's co-commentator says when Taufik wins it in 2006. "...he cares about winning the matches that matter". And Lin Dan mentions it as one of his greatest achivements.

    So,yea. It looks like almost everyone rates it up there as a major. Every(?) Asian player and all the badminton commentators. The only reason I can think of it's not included in world ranking is that it simply would give every asian player a huge advantage of having more than 1 regional tournament(ABC) when Europe has nothing like it. But I'm sure that for asian players and the commentators and fans it is a major tournament. Whatever BWF has for reasons for not including it.

    "Minus 10 to L D and minus 6 to LCW is an indication how good taufik is ? Compare it to other MS and see how good taufik is ? hahaha Useless point. BCL can beat TH most of the times, that's why I said it is useless. TH so inferior in front of BCL "

    Those stats are just slightly of and you know that. I think we agreed that it isn't only BWFs H2H that counts, yes? And Lin Dan can beat LCW most of the times. It does NOT take away the titles LCW has won when Lin Dan didn't participate in that particular tournament.

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    my suggest
    use different colour to differentiate the paragraph
    thanks

  16. #1223
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    "Sarcastic ? Prove it. Which post ? "

    Post 1178# and all the the "hahahaha" and stuff like that.

    "I'm the first one ? Fantastic. So I'm the first person in BC that knows the fact that BWF not count the result in AG since 1998. GoodDong Jiong win - lose records : 154 - 52. I count it already, include the error Swedish 95, it should be 2 - 1, but they record it 3 - 2. AG 94 count. AG 98 not count. Start from 1998, BWF didn't count AG result, surely the 02 and 06 AG won by TH also not count. If win lose records and H2H not counts, then where is the logic if BWF count the title ? http://www.tournamentsoftware.com/fi...33E64CC&q=4856 "

    I've written lengths about AG and that it is a major title, at least for Asian player.
    Nice find, those are his stat vs Taufik, yes? If you have the time and energy could you point out his stat vs LD LCW etc ?

    "That's the fact. TH knows he is not so good. He can't win 20 titles during his career if he not compete in lower level tournaments likes india open, us, canada, abc and etc. Lower level only attract few top MS, that is suitable for him. "

    And he also competes in higher level tournaments. Criticizing another player for entering many tournaments is just weird. This year Taufik has entered 19 tournaments vs LCW 15 and LD 13(LD probably just enters the big ones now though) but still. Hasn't it kinda alway been like this? That he enters very many tournament? If I remember correctly he used to do that the years before also.

    As I said before, counting from GP level and above i a fair thing to do. We're not going to take away all of LCW's GP titles right? But seriously we cannot know why Taufik enter "low level" tournaments, unless he tell us why. Plus I don't think counting ABC at that level just because of the ranking it give is fair. Just look at the winners and participants. It is the top players.

    "Most of Asian players prioritize AG than Denmark open, so can we conclude AG >Denmark SS ? How much ranking points for AG winner ? Compare it with Den SS winner. One thing also, all of CHN top players absent in INA 2010 due to CBL. So CBL > INA SS ?"

    For Asian players AG is probably more important than Den SS, yes. Nowadays you don't win AG for ranking points. I have already mentioned AG so many times so just read that every time AG comes up. That 2010 INA open was a one of thing right? China has won it the years after and the years before. And 2010 LCW won. So it was "only" Chinas top players that didn't participate during that particular year. So top player don't think it is a small tournament. Look at the other years.

    " That's why I said, you can win OG / WC if you are lucky. But luck didn't happened most of the times, that's why TH only can win 21 titles, and needs > 95 wins to surpass Gade achievement. Totally different case. L D and LCW in OG 08 was fit, and also both players has one day rest. In WC 05, TH was fit, but L D was extremely tired after beat PGC in 96 minutes. In Japan 05, even TH said he lost to Chen Hong bcoz he was too tired after beat PGC before. If TH can make that excuse, why L D can not ?http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...34213&langid=5 "

    It was not by luck that TH won OG or WC. I believe you have heard all the argument against that before. Taufik beat many top players to reach both of those finals. Before the WC 2005 final TH had been on court for 271 minutes and LD 250 ! I know Lin Dan last match was much longer but Taufik had been on court longer during the tournament! During 2011 WC Lee Chong Wei was on court 155 minutes whereas Lin Dan was 230 minutes! These players are all professionals! If the minute on court or whatever affected them this much surely Lee Chong Wei would have won 2011 WC?
    Tiredness is not an excuse in this case, Taufik was also making excuses, and luck certainly isn't. And please... Taufik really deserved that 2004 OG medal. On his way to the final he met good players. Woong, Peter Gade... Ponsana(that had earlier defeted in form Susilo). And his opponent, Shon, had also defeated very good players to reach the final, Chen Hong(that had earlier defeated Lee Chong Wei and Sony(that had earlier defeated Park that had defeated Bao) .Once again, no luck. You can't blame Taufik for keeping his head cool and playing at his highest level just because most of the Chinese players failed to do so. Not luck. It is sport we are talking about. Unless there is a injury or something, no luck.

    "The same goes to CJ. And that's prove my word. If you are lucky, you can win OG / WC. His level of play is normal, even from 1998 - 2003. That's why during the period, he was only being world #1 for 3 - 4 weeks. Imagine, 6 years of career, with so many major event experienced but only max 4 weeks in #1 position, even before the emerging of Lin DanThen what is the point you make the H2H stats until 2006 (post # 1157) if then you ignore the H2H stats just bcoz TH looks so bad ? so final decision : who is greater ? LCW or Taufik ? Still the same answer, LCW > TH ? "

    Taufik wasn't allowed to play many tournaments during that time-span was he? Wasn't that one of the reasons he left Indonesia Badminton? I don't ignore H2H the stats. I only said that it isn't only H2H that matters vs BCL. I started posting the pre-2006 H2hs becaue I thought it was interesting that TH's H2h was the way they were during his prime.
    And yea, still LCW. Look, you only have to look at LCW playing(preferably live) to understand instinctively that he is the second best player of this era. That is the level of play he i playing at right now.

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    "That's the point. TH is loved but not necessarily he is one of the greatest."
    Don't forget, so many Indonesians in China."

    He would not be included in the 4 kings unless he was considered one of the greatest.

    TH only win once out of 8 duel vs LCW, what so proud of it ? What is the problem if TH > CJ @ mickey mouse AE ? And CJ win it again 1 week after

    We compared Taufik to PG. And I also said that it was a comparison that I did not like. It's a win vs CJ in a tournament that most people consider a major(watch earlier posts) and you said that Taufik never won in majors.

    "TC and SC also major. Chen Long surely has at least one major. CJ and BCL surely has more than 2."

    Gah. This is a tough issue. TC and SC are team events. So in my mind they aren't majors. But many players and fans think they are so I am probably wrong about this. The objections I have is that if we count TC and SC, China will always be ahead in majors this era. They have simply had MANY more players at the highest level. It makes it slightly "unfair" to the rest of the world. Because there will be INDIVIDUAL players that win matches vs China in the finals but still doesn't get the Thomas or Sudirman Cup title, right? So I don't know about this one... Just look at the records from 1996 onward. Sometimes individual players have managed to win matches vs China or whatever country won it and lost the title. And if I player LOSES one of his matches he is still able to win Thomas or Sudirman Cup...
    So yeah... I think they are the biggest team events there is in badminton for what that is worth...

    "Before PG was 27, TH already played in 2 TC, 1 SC, 1 OG and 3 WC. Need more experience ? Do we have another major event ? If PGC still amazing @ 35, then he was much more amazing 10 - 12 years ago. TH only can win most of the times when gade was 27 years."

    If we are talking about years on the tour and maturity as a person then yes maybe TH needed more experience, remember that he was very young when he entered the tour. And PG was able to win half of the times the faced each other AFTER he turned 27.
    But I think experience is far from everything in badminton... If it was ONLY experience and age that mattered then TH should have never stopped winning vs PG when he first was able to do that, his experience should be enough and Gade should be too old. Looking at the H2H between those 2 shows that it isn't the case with both of them being able to win after TH turned 27. So your argument doesn't stand.

    "When you were young, surely you moves much faster. And not only TH, but also every other players.
    Gade also moves much faster when he still young."

    But particularly TH. Like so many others have said, he moved faster and played better and kinda lost his "killer instinct" around 2005-2006. It was not simply a matter of age.

    Also L D and LCW. But the different is, L D and LCW can improve their skills, while TH can't
    PGC only can win 2 times vs LCW, bcoz they start to played when gade = 27 yrs, but that only 2 matches, the other 16 matches start when gade was 30 yrs. At 27, TH only can win once vs LCW.
    Poor TH. This is fair.

    And I have said why it's not fair . So just because someone won or lost vs PG after he was 27 his before he was 27 doesn't count? That is not a fair thing to say.

    If not only experience, then what else ?

    You mentioned that LCW and LD was able to expand and improve their game. LCW used to be more passive and not as explosive as he is now.

    "Around 3, 4 or 5. Still need some research before I can decide."

    I'm honestly looking forward to it. Please clearly state your reasons for it etc.


    I was far too tired writing this so I'm sure there are plenty of errors, so feel free to correct me about anything.
    Last edited by Giga01; 10-20-2012 at 07:48 AM.

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