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Thread: Taufik Hidayat
10-17-2012, 01:19 AM #1174
10-17-2012, 01:21 AM #11751999 WC : lost to Sun Jun2000 OG : lost to Ji Xinpeng2003 WC : lost to BCL2006 WC : lost to Chen Hong2009 WC : lost to Chen Jin2010 WC : lost to Chen Jin2012 OG : lost to Lin Dan
Last edited by Fortune; 10-17-2012 at 01:34 AM.
10-17-2012, 01:27 AM #11762005 World Cup SF : L D vs Chen Hong = 21 - 14, 6 - 21, 21 - 6. Source :
Last edited by Fortune; 10-17-2012 at 01:31 AM.
10-17-2012, 01:40 AM #1177
10-17-2012, 01:43 AM #1178
10-17-2012, 01:51 AM #1179
10-17-2012, 02:03 AM #1180
i saw some fanatic here
10-17-2012, 02:15 AM #1181
10-17-2012, 03:29 AM #1182
Wow, some real fans here, even remember many matches.
Personally, I like Taufik match against Gade in AE final. That's when they are both young. After that, both stamina are no longer at their best, I think. Even when they won.
Same with Haryanto Arbi, I liked to watch him when he was about 20 years old. But after that, he does not seem to have his best anymore.
But some players are the reverse. They are more enjoyable to watch in their late 20s.
10-17-2012, 09:39 AM #1183
"Xia only win 9 titles during his carrer, World GP Finals also not count by BWF. But how much titles that CH can win before the "big blow" for XXZ in 2004 ? Only 8 titles. Why "big blow" ? Bcoz Xia was the reigning world champion, but lose the ticket to 2004 OG, despite his ranking is in top 8 (the rule is max 3 MS in top 8 for 2004 OG). "
How did the "big blow" affect Chen Hong's ability to win titles? Did they only send Chen Hong to individual tournaments or what was the result?
"AE = major title ? XXZ & CH = China player and China looks down to AE . mickey mouse title for China but you call it major title ? according to who CH won 1 major title ? hahaha . Are you CBA leader ? China & Korea (#1 and #3 the strongest countries in badminton) looks down to mickey mouse title all england. read post #96, 97 and 98 of this thread : http://www.badmintoncentral.com/forums/showthread.php/115597-OG12-MEN-s-Singles-Finals/page6 "
The All England is,in most people minds, a major tournament. Just check the "Taufik Hidayat's opinion about the All England" thread.
Quoting repentedboy : It's the opinion of many and the participation that matters. All England's attraction is not the money but the prestige. It's the prestige and history of the tournament that made the game so special.
And also Jung Jae Sung on his BWF page :
Memorable Sporting Achievements:
"2008 All-England title - I really wanted to win that title"
You could argue that Jung did not have so many majors to choose from, or that it hasn't been updated recently but why All England and not some other Super Series? The year before they had even won the Korea Open, and still All England is rated above that?
The results from the All england vs German open during the 21st century have 11 non China or Korea winners in German vs 14 in All England, not that huge of a difference. You could read that either way. For the rest of the world, maybe it is German open that is a small tournament? And that because of that they focus more on All England instead, and as a result are able to sometimes win over Korea and China ?
So the link you posted about it being a small tournament for China AND KOREA is wrong.
I don't know how China thinks about the tournament though, you you may be right in that statement. Lin Dan's quote about the 100th All England comes to mind.
But still, in most peoples minds ,including mine, and considering the above facts it IS a major tournament and I believe it should be counted as such.
"True. Doesn't downplay TH at all. But why you only involved CH and not the others ?"
I did involve the other players?
"Before the big blow, Chen won less titles than Xia, and never won any major, even until he retire. And before the big blow, @ 2004 TC, LYB / CBA choose Xia to play in SF and Final. Where is Chen Hong ? "
I don't quite follow you here. Considering the All England is a major title he won at least 1 after the "big blow". And I still don't see how the big blow affected Chen Hong's ability to win more titles than Xia.
I guess Xia was in better shape during that tournament? Do you have the complete TC China team stats during the period they both played? Cause that would be more interesting than only mentioning 2004 TC...
"Still possible, bcoz he only needs another 11 titles to make it 22 official titles.Remember, TH won 25 titles, but AG and SEA Games not official, so only 21 titles. hahaha "
I think I made my point about AG. If you need more proof only read it on Lin Dans's official BWF page:
Memorable Sporting Achievements:
Beijing 2008 Olympic Champion, Thomas Cup Team Champion (2004, 2006, 2008, 2010, 2012), 2010 Guangzhou Asian Games Champion, Sudirman Cup Mixed Team Championships Champion (2007, 2009, 2011), 2011 World Champion, 2011 BWF World Superseries Finals Champion. And yes, before you point that out, I know he does not mention AE.
At most you can take away SEA games because that is a VERY regional tournament...
But AG does count, at leas for the players and fans it does.
What is 4/6-14/16 ?
The stats considering we don't know who would have won those those encounters between Lin Dan and Chen Jin that Lin Dan gave away.
"TH stats vs L D / LCW is better than CJ vs L D / LCW, SO WHAT ? Then why TH can't make the better stats vs Chen Jin itself ?"
It needs to be included, to show how good a player Taufik is, it IS IMPORTANT to know that he was able to win more times against LD and LCW than most other players in the world! And for his result against those other players, I have no idea. But it does not take away Taufiks results vs LCW, LD, and PG.
"TH stats vs L D / LCW / PGC is better than BCL vs L D / LCW. So why TH can't make the better stats vs BCL itself ? Hahaha . Let me ask you 1 question : what is the point to involved other player when it is useless ? "
Read the above.
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10-17-2012, 10:07 AM #1184
Please stop being sarcastic and the like. It is completely unnecessary and it makes you look worse than you are.
I only follow your data. You count AG, of course I do the same. You only count H2H until 2006 (to make TH looks good vs other players), surely I do the same. But, the fact is, AG = unofficial BWF event. BWF not count : AG, SEAG, East AG, World Cup, World GP Finals, Copenhagen Master, Commonwealth and etc.
I can only speak for AG and I did in my earlier post.
"Nice statement. But who are you ? BWF's president ?L D was happy or not, it won't change the fact that AG = unofficial BWF event.That is according to wikipedia. AE & ABC = major titles and China Open not major title. But according to BWF, China = AE, and 2 level higher than ABC http://www.bwfbadminton.org/page.aspx?id=14955L D vs TH H2H in AG = 3 - 2. If I count AG, it is good for L D. LOL. "
Yes, Lin Dan looks better, that's because he is a better player than Taufik. I never tried to make Taufik look better than Lin Dan. But it also gives Taufik 2 titles, 2 major ones.
Yes, I know i should not have quoted wikipedia, it was stupid of me.
You are the first one I hear about that does not count AG as a major tournament when it seems like almost everyone, player and fan, does!
"If we include AG, their H2H should be 16 - 5 (+ 11 for L D), compare to + 10 only (13 - 3) LOL. In total, should be 6 - 5 for L D. But I still not count World Cup result, bcoz BWF also not count. World Cup also unofficial BWF tourney . One thing also, CH beat TH in 2006 edition, but surely not count. TH win in AG 06 also not count if CBL not count. Maybe TH not serious, bcoz he know, even if he is serious, he can't beat BCL in China heheheAG and SEAG not official, so he only won 21 titles. "
I never said I did not count CBL. I have mentioned AG, so that makes it 23 titles for Taufik. When it comes to h2h between players we should, if we can, include every meeting between them in a competition setting yes? EVERY meeting except for friendly or charity matches?
"Plus TH won 1 - 2 titles of INA open with the absence of China players. ABC 2000 also, bcoz it is also held in INA. Why ? Safety reason after the 1998 anti China riot. TH won 2004 ABC, and many Chn players doesn't there. Why ? They already qualify for OG 2004, while TH not qualify yet. TH was lucky to have that situation, that's why he can win 21 official titles. If not, no way he can win 20 official titles. TH like to compete in lower level tournament such as India open, ABC, US open, Canada open, and etc, that only attract few top MS. That's why he can win 21 official titles during his long career . If BCL also attend those tourneys, then no way TH can won it all. Remeber their H2H ? 9 - 5 for BCL. And yes, TH first ever (Open) title in Europe, also his first SS title, came when most of Asian top MS was absent due to AG preparation. Very special achievement for the 3rd best MS in this era (according to your version of course) "
Those things here are precisely what it is impossible to discuss. Almost only "ifs" and buts". We can not know if BCL would have been able to win in those occasions. What tournament Taufik chooses to play in is up to him. Counting GP level and above is a fair thing to do. The SS tournaments did not start untill 2007. And, important note, the other Asia top players was away for AG preparation? Does not that also proves it is a big and major tournament? Almost all those things are ifs and buts.
"We are in the discussion about other players, so we have to wait for the result. No guarantee if TH only below L D and LCWOG and WC is just another title. TH won OG without facing China players, and won WC when fight against the extremely tired L D. If you are lucky, you can win major event. CJ is another example."
Don't go there. WC and OG was not just "another title". It was not Taufiks fault that he wasn't able to face Chen Hong or Lin Dan in 2004, it was their faults. And just because LD was tired it still does not take away anything from Taufiks 2005 win. That's almost like taking away LD's 2008 OG medal because Lee Chong Wei did not put up so much resistance.
No L D and no LCW, and he won the 2010 WC.
They participated in the tournament, only they lost earlier.
"What is the criteria ? # of major title(s) ? # of title(s) ? H2H ? Win - lose records ?"
All of the above, and his level of play during his prime. Second in major titles, 4th in titles, H2H arguably not top 4 but at least top 10 all things considered. And in win/lose 4th. I understand more that you may be able to come to a different conclusion than me, but for me that makes him the third best this era.
"Or what else ?TH > CH. CH > BCL. BCL > TH. So according to you, who is better, BCL or TH ? I'm waiting your answer."
TH, but not only because of H2H but, everything else.
The amount of titles : LCW won. But if we talk about THE titles : TH won. So which is most important ?
Hmm. Majors are more important to me, but the sheer amount of titles Lee Chong Wei has won still shows more greatness. And also that he has silver in every major.
10-17-2012, 10:26 AM #1185
Still like that.Since 1998 - 2003, what kind of major title that he ever won ??? Add it in 2002, can he win it ? Yes, if he didn't meet China players in fit condition.
. China MS players really a nightmare for TH in individual major events hahaha .
Wow, yes you are probably right on this one.
What TH can do most of the times vs L D or LCW ??? What they think about TH recently ?
Perhaps not recently but overall. Taufik is loved in China, correct?
CL until 20 y.o. was never played in major events (team and individual). Compare it with TH when 20 y.o. At 17, TH made his debut in 1998 AG team event, at 18 @ WC, and 19 @ OG. Which MS has the chance to make a debut in major event final @ 17 y.o ? Only TH, right ? But once the other MS get the major event experienced, it is easy for them to beat TH, and very easy for the great Lin Dan hahaha
You also have to consider the amazing toll on his body. It is indeed easy for Lin Dan nowadays. But not for every other player all the time. You know that Taufik won over LCW in 2010 WC, by then Lee Chong Wei should have enough experience yes? And he beat Chen Jin at the 2012 All England?
"Read again your post. You said that LCW was greater than TH, despite LCW has never won 1 major title. If CL has 22 official titles, surely CL was greater than TH...plus the fact that their H2H = 4 - 2 for CL. I only use your own argument. Pray hard for TH. If not, CL will surpass him "
But Lee Chong Wei has won almost DOUBLE the titles Taufik has won. If he had only won about 2-3 more but no majors I would still consider Taufik the better player when it comes to results. So I stand by what I said.
We have already discussed the amount of titles needed. Chen Long will without a doubt surpass Taufik, I think I said that.
"Not really. An average 2 titles per year even in his prime is not the indication he is much better than before."
But he was able to win majors then.
"TH start to win over Peter most of the times when Gade was 27 years old. Before that, it is 3 - 1 or 4 - 1 for Gade. If TH lose most of the times, then what the "village champion" LCW can do ???"
I could use your logic and says that before PG was 27 Taufik need more experience to win or whatever.
"In fact, 29 years old TH still can win in rubber sets vs LCW and CL in 2010. Not only played, but also win. so 26 - 28 years old TH has stamina problem ?You count PGC vs LCW when Gade was 27 y.o. already, but you count TH vs LCW from 20 y.o. Is it fair ?"
I never said it was only stamina related. But look at what Peter Gade is able to achieve at 35 ? Most players will not be able to do that.
Take a look of how Taufik plays around 2004-2006. He moves much faster and does not use the backhand as regularly as he does now. So, yeah, I think he was better back then.
If he only started to meet LCW at a certain age, then I count it from that.
"And 7 out of 8 times he beat LCW happened before 27 years and 7 months. More experienced than LCW, surely he can win most of the times. But when LCW get the experienced, it's very easy to handle. So many times TH only can score below than 10 pts in G1 or G2.""
See above and also:
I don't agree that it was only experience that put Taufik above LCW. LCW has become a better player than Taufik in other ways. And IT STILL does not take away that Taufik has won 8 times etc.
"For LCW, relax. In shorther period, he will surpass PGC achievement. But for TH, can he do it another 95 - 100 wins to surpass PGC ??? hahaha "
I agree. But no hahaha. I also want to know... Where do you place Taufik and why?
Please correct me if I got something wrong.
10-17-2012, 06:15 PM #1186
I take back what I said about 2008 OG almost being like 2005 WC. It was a stupid exaggeration on my part. Sorry for that.
10-17-2012, 06:41 PM #1187
Haven't you 2 realized (yet) that life is short?
Renmazuo27 liked this post
10-17-2012, 06:59 PM #1188
There has been a lot of time and effort spent on these replies.
10-17-2012, 07:34 PM #1189
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