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  1. #409
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default All-round players will still be doing well under any scoring system

    Quote Originally Posted by franxon

    1) Yes chris i do think the all-round players will be doing best under any scoring system, be it OSS or NSS, even under tennis scoring system. the best is simply the best.

    2) The world ranking hasn't change much during the transformation of scoring system, neither has the game play of the players. So my personal opinion is that the scoring system did not give us more impact on the game than an abridged game.

    3) Li Yongbo said that the chinese national technical team (consists of tech experts) did a good study and research and as a result now the players are able to adapt better to the NSS. You never know why he said so, you only know what he said is bullsh*t. Of course you need new strategy for NSS, especially when you start the game and when you play at critical points above 17 and at deuce, but it is definitely not a lot of work like what he discribed.

    4) NSS did not shake the fundamentals of badminton. The impact is even not as great as the technology revolutions on rackets, from wood to aluminum alloy to carbon graphite, which made a lot of impossibles possible and fundamentally changed the game. a similiar yet stronger case in tennis.

    5) The bottom line, NSS did not give as much impact on court (i.e. to the players n the game play) as off court (i.e. popularity, commercials, telecasting).
    Hi franxon,

    Replying to you, point by point.

    1) Yes, I agree. All-round players are still be performing well under the NSS. Those who think that you have to attack under the NSS should rethink.

    2) The intended abridged game has not really reduced the length of match time by much for equally skilled players. It has been proven by the many Open Tournaments over the last 3 months. However, for players with great difference in skill levels, their matches are definitely shorter. And yes, the world ranking hasn't changed much.

    3) Here, I agree again. Li Yongbo's Chinese National Technical Team Study and Research on the NSS should not be stated as he has described. I think his intention was to worry others.

    4) NSS did not shake the fundamentals of badmintion. However, when a higher skilled player plays a lower skilled player, the lower skilled player's score now looks more respectable, even though their match time is shorter.

    5) But here, I tend to disagree. NSS did give an impact on court (i.e. to the players). The players now know that if it is a close game, the game will last a maximum of about 20 minutes. In the past, a close game could last forever because of Service-Over and Service-Over, and that was the time when stamina played a very important role.

    However, I think the 1-minute break at 11 points(usually after 10 minutes), and the 2-minute break at the end of a game(usually after 20 minutes), can be used for commercial breaks. Thus, it is better for telecasting.

    Cheers... chris@ccc

  2. #410
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    Default Going Back To The Future..

    Just wondering.

    What happens if we look into all the international tournaments of the past and with the scoring records convert them to as if they were playing on the 21-points Rally System.......would we be seeing a different group of Champions or will the Champions based on the 15points system still prevail......I wonder.
    I am sure some technically sound programmer should be able to write a program to do mass conversion...
    Any thoughts......

  3. #411
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default Study: Converting scores from NSS to OSS

    Quote Originally Posted by Shuttlebugs

    What happens if we look into all the international tournaments of the past and with the scoring records convert them to as if they were playing on the 21-points Rally System.......would we be seeing a different group of Champions or will the Champions based on the 15points system still prevail......I wonder.

    I am sure some technically sound programmer should be able to write a program to do mass conversion...
    Hi Shuttlebugs,

    It would be good if someone has the time to convert past records of the OSS to the NSS as suggested by you.

    You might be interested in the link below, where kanive found time to convert the scores of the Bronze Medal match (Individual Event) at the Commonwealth Games, Melbourne 2006.

    l was there at courtside to watch it live. And I thought, whether OSS or NSS, on that day, Chetan Anand would have beaten Aamir Ghaffar.

    In the study, kanive also noted who was serving for each rally.
    With special thanks to kanive, please refer to POST#307 of this link = http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...=27000&page=16

    Cheers... chris@ccc



  4. #412
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    I don't think converting scores from the OSS to the NSS will give us any meaningful analysis. The reason is that the mental state of the players, whether serving or receiving serve or even the way each handles pressure, is very different in the two systems.

  5. #413
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    watching the 06 WC MS matches, it seem the past assumption of that comeback under the NSS would be rare and therefore NSS isnt good for players with defensive skills or late starter. If u look at:

    chen hong vs taufik, taufik won the 1st game but lost the match
    chen hong vs LD, chen hong won the 1st game but lost the match
    LD vs bao in the final, bao won the 1st game but lost the match

    the above examples shows that under NSS, comeback is possible.

  6. #414
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default Comeback is still possible under the NSS

    Hi cooler,

    I am in agreement with you. Comeback is still possible under the NSS.

    As I have read, over and over again, under the NSS, it is the errors that a player makes that causes the player to lose the match.

    So if a player is to make more errors when he/she is playing with an attacking strategy, then the player should not be expected to perform well.

    But if the player is to make less errors when playing with a control/defensive strategy, then the player might be able to perform better.

    Many contributors to this thread have mentioned that a player should take the initiative(to attack) under the NSS. But I have to say... this strategy will be unfavorable to you if the attacking play is not your style of play.

    I think “Percentage Play” is the answer. Just play the style that you are best at. Don't worry whether the match is scored under the OSS or the NSS.

    We have been playing under the NSS for 6 months now, and my perception is based only on these 6 months. You'll never know... in another 6 months' time, I might change my mind on what I have just said.

    Cheers... chris@ccc


  7. #415
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default It is possible to comeback under the NSS

    Quote Originally Posted by cooler

    watching the 06 WC MS matches, it seem the past assumption of that comeback under the NSS would be rare and therefore NSS isnt good for players with defensive skills or late starter. If u look at:

    chen hong vs taufik, taufik won the 1st game but lost the match
    chen hong vs LD, chen hong won the 1st game but lost the match
    LD vs bao in the final, bao won the 1st game but lost the match

    the above examples shows that under NSS, comeback is possible.
    Hi cooler,

    Again Taufik did a great comeback against Bao Chunlai in the Japan Open 2006.

    It is definitely possible to comeback under the NSS.

    Cheers... chris@ccc

  8. #416
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default Japan Open 2006 MS Final: LD Vs TH

    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc

    But if the player is to make less errors when playing with a control/defensive strategy, then the player might be able to perform better.

    Many contributors to this thread have mentioned that a player should take the initiative(to attack) under the NSS. But I have to say... this strategy will be unfavorable to you if the attacking play is not your style of play.

    I think “Percentage Play” is the answer. Just play the style that you are best at. Don't worry whether the match is scored under the OSS or the NSS.

    Greetings,

    It will be interesting in the MS Final of the Japan Open 2006, LD Vs TH.

    To me, TH uses more of a control strategy while LD uses more of an attacking one.

    Let's see what the outcome of LD Vs TH will be.

    Cheers... chris@ccc

  9. #417
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris@ccc
    Greetings,

    It will be interesting in the MS Final of the Japan Open 2006, LD Vs TH.

    To me, TH uses more of a control strategy while LD uses more of an attacking one.

    Let's see what the outcome of LD Vs TH will be.

    Cheers... chris@ccc
    yes, i had wrote similar comments like that before. It's not really about attacking is better or not but rather applying your advantages and exploit opponents weakness. If one can attack all day long, go ahead but in real life attacking cost energy and u can't continuously use this mode of play, of course, if u have tons of energy left, attack to your heart content.

    I have been playing the oss and nss equally in the past month and like to make these comments. I think the nss can be tweaked to make up some deficiency that most player find but havent yet commented, that is how the game is decided on a closely evened contest.

    Under oss, we have setting to 3 point. In nss, u just need 2 more points after 19 (ie, 21-19, 22-20, 23-21, etc will get u a win). I think the nss doesn't gauge the winner in a closely matched content fairly as under the oss.

    Point wise, nss/oss = 21/15 = 1.4
    If oss can have 3 set points, the nss should have 1.4 * 3 = 4.2 equivalent set points too, not to mention that nss is rally points too, 4.2 rally points could still be quicker than winning 3 set point under oss.

    I like to see under nss, u need to win by 4 points (at least) after point 19. After that, first team to reach 31 points win. Winning by 2 point in the current nss is not decisive enough.

    again, strategy wise, u should use what works for u but closing up a close game under nss is not as convincingly as under oss.

  10. #418
    Regular Member chris-ccc's Avatar
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    Default Morten Frost's commented the on NSS

    Greetings,

    Just received this report from THE HINDU, Sunday 15-Oct-2006.

    Morten Frost spoke about the changes in Badminton and felt that the new scoring system has forced players to adopt an attacking style.

    Cheers... chris@ccc

    ====== start report ======

    THE HINDU

    A warm welcome for an old friend

    Special Correspondent

    BANGALORE: It was a memorable reunion of two badminton legends. Prakash Padukone and Morten Frost, who shared an enduring friendship and a healthy rivalry in their halcyon days, came together again, after a gap of 23 years at the KBA Stadium here on Saturday.

    Morten Frost, a four-time All-England champion and former world no.1 arrived here to conduct a coaches clinic under the auspices of the Karnataka Badminton Association. Little did he realise that he would get such an affectionate and warm welcome from the badminton aficionados and of course from his old pal, Prakash Padukone, who on behalf of KBA placed a `Mysore Peta' (headgear) on Frost.

    "I am extremely pleased to be here and meeting Prakash after all those years in his home town. It brings back all the good memories," said Frost. The Danish legend, accompanied by his wife Charlotte and young daughter Josephine, said that he was looking forward to a fruitful stint with the coaches here. "I look forward to my interaction with the coaches and the youngsters and I can share my knowledge and talk about my concepts," said Frost.

    Frost spoke about changes in the game and felt that the new scoring system has forced players to adopt an attacking style. "Everybody is in a hurry to finish off the rallies and there is not much of deception or a good defence, that marked our games," said the maestro.

    Biggest casualty

    The biggest casualty of the new format and present trend was the lack of variety. "In our days, we had different styles of play and each one was different and unique in his own way. To me everyone was a tough opponent, whether it was Prakash, Rudy Hartono or Liem Swie King and each one had to be played on his merit, but I don't see that kind of trend now," said Frost.


    Frost hoped that many talented youngsters would emerge from India. "After Prakash, there was a big gap and I now see the emergence of promising players and the one (Arvind Bhat), who beat Kenneth Johannson recently, showed his class. I hope more Indians make their mark on the World stage," said Frost.

    Frost was quizzed on the speculation that he was able to beat Prakash Padukone only after he learnt the Indian's `tricks' during Prakash's six-year training stint in Denmark. " Yes, I learnt from Prakash a lot. He was the first guy who told me how to size up my rivals and play accordingly with them. We were sparring partners for quite a long time and I guess we learnt from each other," Frost said.

    Prakash Padukone, in turn said: "Morten had it in him and he would have beaten me even if I had not trained with him. But he was able to do it much earlier than the normal course of time. I too gained from him." Recalling his friendship with Morten, Prakash gratefully acknowledged the Dane's gesture of playing exhibition ties in Bangalore in 1983 to raise funds for the Canara Union courts in Malleswaram. "I still cherish those moments, we had a full house of 2000 spectators. We had a similar attitude and believed in dedication, determination and discipline. He was amazingly consistent and he is a perfect example and role model for a lot of aspiring youngsters here," said Prakash.

    A re-run of the Prakash-Morten clash will unfold at the KBA on Sunday evening as they play each other in an exhibition tie partnering few other former players, including Vimal Kumar and Vinod Kumar.

    ====== end report ======

  11. #419
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    In the just concluded Japan Open 2006, Gillian Clark commented that the World No. 1 and 2 women's singles players produced the best ever WS final she has witnessed.

    Zhang Ning and Xie Xingfang went the full distance, with Zhang taking the first game 21-11 but losing the second 16-21. Both displayed a variety of strokes and the rallies were longer, quite unlike in the MS, where an attacking style is preferred.

    There were lots of excitement even in this NSS and neither party was willing to give way and from 20-20 onwards in the final game, it was a see-saw battle all the way till "sudden death" at 29-29.

    At the last and crucial point, Xie opted to serve high instead of the many low serves she had done earlier. But Zhang took the risk and instead of clearing or dropping she thundered the bird down the line without any reply from Xie. The jubilant Zhang had retained her JO title and ended the score with a powerful SMASH, seemingly to tell us that you need to finish off with an aggressive ATTACK.

    It took the world's two top women's singles players to delight us with their magical skills even in this 'arbitrary' NSS and to play to the hilt where no more points are allowed after 30 in the rubber game. To say that the NSS is not exciting cannot now stand as the competitors now realize that every point is important and they have to fight for it as there is no luxury of winning back the serve as in the OSS. But the players can make a comeback on their own merit and we have witnessed this before. They are mindful not to commit unnecessary 'unforced' errors. So the net result is that they have to 'improve' all round, and develop a more powerful smash. Clearly Zhang Ning's smash is more powerful and if you take a closer look at how she executes it, she really throws herself forward in what is technically known as 'weight transfer', and not just by the mere swinging of the racket arm.

    Two compatriots and teammates from China played their hearts out to give us an outstanding final game score of 30-29, the maximum allowed under the NSS. No quarters given, no collusion, no tips from their coaches - Zhang and Xie just gave of their best and delighted everyone of us just so that one of them could wear the Japan Open crown!

    But of course, we can't say the same for the MS final between Lin Dan and Taufik Hidayat, unfortunately. Taufik was a great disappointment as he lost all motivation in the rubber game to virtually give it to Lin Dan in exchange for just 3 embarrassing points.
    Last edited by Loh; 10-15-2006 at 11:17 PM.

  12. #420
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    What Zhang Ning experienced and said of her marathon encounter with Xie Xingfang during the Japan Open 2006, as reported today in Singapore's "Today" newspaper. Some useful lessons from that great player.

    Zhang staved off four match points and squandered five of her own before prevailing 21-11, 16-21, 30-29 after a marathon final game which went to sudden death.

    "At 16-19 down in the final game, I tried to keep myself calm and concentrated on each shot. (So a comeback is possible, two match points away from defeat.)

    "That was the key to the victory. I was able to finish off by playing aggressively at the end," said a jubilant Zhang. (So even in WS, Zhang believes in attacking aggressively to ensure victory.)
    Last edited by Loh; 10-16-2006 at 03:24 AM.

  13. #421
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh
    What Zhang Ning experienced and said of her marathon encounter with Xie Xingfang during the Japan Open 2006, as reported today in Singapore's "Today" newspaper. Some useful lessons from that great player.

    Zhange staved off four match points and squandered five of her own before prevailing 21-11, 16-21, 30-29 after a marathon final game which went to sudden death.

    "At 16-19 down in the final game, I tried to keep myself calm and concentrated on each shot.

    "That was the key to the victory. I was able to finish off by playing aggressively at the end," said a jubilant Zhang. (So even in WS, Zhang believes in attacking aggressively to ensure victory.)
    unfortunately, formula to winning isn't that easy nor given free to media interview LOL If it's that easy, just maintain attacking aggressively, why TH can't do that in 2nd and 3rd games? hehe

  14. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loh
    What Zhang Ning experienced and said of her marathon encounter with Xie Xingfang during the Japan Open 2006, as reported today in Singapore's "Today" newspaper. Some useful lessons from that great player.

    Zhange staved off four match points and squandered five of her own before prevailing 21-11, 16-21, 30-29 after a marathon final game which went to sudden death.

    "At 16-19 down in the final game, I tried to keep myself calm and concentrated on each shot.

    "That was the key to the victory. I was able to finish off by playing aggressively at the end," said a jubilant Zhang. (So even in WS, Zhang believes in attacking aggressively to ensure victory.)
    unfortunately, formula to winning isn't that easy nor given free to media interviewer LOL If it's that easy, just maintain attacking aggressively, why can't TH just do that in 2nd and 3rd games? hehe

  15. #423
    Regular Member Loh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooler
    unfortunately, formula to winning isn't that easy nor given free to media interview LOL If it's that easy, just maintain attacking aggressively, why TH can't do that in 2nd and 3rd games? hehe
    To answer your question - Lin Dan is not so stupid as to allow TH the luxury of attacking him easily. He admitted that in the first game, he lost out to TH at the net because TH was faster.

    In the 2nd game, LD changed his game plan by reducing his net play and sending more long shots to TH instead. By so doing LD has disrupted TH's rhythm and in fact LD himself became faster at the net to force TH to play defensively. LD was then able to attack more.

    As is commonly seen at that level for MS, the players will take every opportunity to attack. Conversely, they will try not to allow their opponents to attack them by playing tight net shots or when their opponents are at the net, they will employ other shots (like fast drives or clears) to send their opponents away. But many will not give away any chance to attack any shots within their range.

    Of course, if the player is not as fit, he will not be able to attack as aggressively and as powerfully. But given the chance, he will want to continue with an attacking strategy. He can't afford to play defensively and must create as many opportunities as possible to attack his opponent.

    In the JO, TH gave up completely when he lost 10 consecutive points in the 3rd game. He was devoid of any strategy. He was not even thinking. So there's no point in talking about his 3rd game. It was LD who was calling the shots at will.
    Last edited by Loh; 10-16-2006 at 04:13 AM.

  16. #424
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    Do you think maybe this is just an attempt to create more excitement for badminton? Like...so that we had something to look forward to. It sure has caused lots of discussion here

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    I believe the NSS has a lot to do with the increasing interest in any encounter between TH and LD. The NSS is pure "Samurai" duel. No quarters or second chance are given. The mental aspect of the game is now even more decisive, as it should be. It is more like seeing two gladiators or samurais fighting to kill or be killed.

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