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  1. #18
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by event
    Saya sudah lupa semua bahasa yang saya sudah belajar.
    event,
    so you did learn bahasa Indonesia, eventhough you forgot abt it..and you know a bit of the language..

  2. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    sure it's spelled the same, and it's only 1 word..there are other similar spelled-words, ie. smash, set, deuce, match etc.
    Right, which is why the problem for local people dealing with an English-only website might be slightly reduced in the particular case of Indonesia.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Specific to IO, hmm, why would local people read an English website, which is more likely dedicated to "non-Indonesians" speaking people or those who don't understand, when they have local newspapers/magazines at their disposal..
    They likely wouldn't use an English website. In the case of Indonesia, you're talking about one of the few countries in which even international tournaments are covered in the regular press. This isn't true in the case of other countries that host tournaments and I was making my earlier point in general terms.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Besides, if one thinks abt it, why would there even be a website?? Isn't the main purpose of a website is to share information internationally??.
    Well, here, you're ignoring the fact that the Indonesian Open used to have a website and it was only in Indonesian. This seems to prove that someone in Indonesia thought it would be useful to have all the information in one place..
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Isn't the main purpose of a website is to share information internationally??
    Now I know you are kidding about this one. Of all the thousands of websites you've visited, you've never seen one that was intended for one country or even one local community? As I said before, the local people are paying for the tournament (ie. buying the sponsors' products) and they will make up 80% of the spectators or more. They deserve to have a place to look to find all the information in one place...
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    And why do a bilingual task if one can just do it in 1 language??Simpler and less work, don't you think, whilst still achieving the same purpose.??
    I think I answered this question. First, I don't know how much work it would be. I've never operated a website. If translation is being done into English, then operating a website in the local language does not involve translation. It implies that the data that had to be translated into English had to be translated from Bahasa Indonesia, for example. If a parallel website can be set up with that untranslated data at a low cost, I think it would help a lot of people. But I admit that I don't know how much more work or cost is involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    whilst still achieving the same purpose.??
    Well, this is the key, isn't it? If the local people can't understand what's on the English website, then part of that purpose is not achieved with a unilingual site. [quote=ctjcad]Now, since you are referring back to a website being catered to the local population, imagine the official IBF website; since it's based in Malaysia, do you think they should do another parallel site dedicated to the Malaysians or Bahasa MalayThe local population of Malaysia has no special relationship to the operations of the IBF headquarters. Their dealings with the IBF, if any, are identical to those of the citizens of Russia or Pakistan. No Malaysians visit the IBF unless they work there and they don't pay the IBF to have the headquarters there. A decision to operate a Bahasa Melayu version of the IBF site would involve the same considerations as a Spanish or Chinese or German version of that site. The fact that English is the default is, of course, just a cruel historical accident. To answer your question from another post, yes, I learned a little Bahasa Indonesia a long time ago and forgot a lot of it. One time, upon hearing my explanation of one of the many irritating complexities of English, an Indonesian man said "Why is English the international language then? Everyone should use Bahasa Indonesia. It's much simpler!" I couldn't help agreeing. I just included that quote to demonstrate how bad my skills are these days.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    the "it" i'm referring to is the sport of badminton..This might sound "extreme" but specifically for the IO, making an English based-only website will only attract non-Indonesian speaking/understanding people to follow and keep up, i'm sure you can imagine it as well... Therefore, more people will be interested...
    Sigh, how i wonder if IBF will make this a *requirement* for all websites which are presenting all the higher stars tourneys.
    I don't buy it. More popular than a site with no English yes. But not more popular than if the site were bilingual. There would be no difference in the latter case. And yes, I agree the IBF should require an English version with live scoring for 4* and above.

  3. #20
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    Website? What... what... Dont really bother with the website... the best thing is you can watch the match live... website and online scoring is the alternative option... heheheheeee

  4. #21
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Default To have bilingual or not to have...

    event,
    i don't know how this ended up with a long discussion between you and me over a silly issue of whether to use bilingual or not over a silly Indonesian Open website..And i was already going to close this case, but since you respond even longer, hehe, i just want to make 2 comments:
    First, which one would you *prefer*, an Indonesian-only website or English based website. Or let's say any other language, other than Chinese or Korean(which you know), which one would choose? If you propose to have bilingual website for IBF tourneys, one for local/native speakers and the other in English, now imagine those people who are reading and following the info in their own native/local language, if they go and follow in other international IBF tourney website, which language will they be reading and understand, taking into account they don't understand the other language??..Don't you think it's English??..
    And second, since this IO website is updating very2 slow, which you and many can see and experience, imagine this a bilingual service website, how "much work" is there to be done, let alone a 1 language based website..
    My choice is, if anyone is going to do a website on IBF tourneys, stick with one common language, English, in presentation and run with it. Forget abt setting it up in bilingual or trilingual format. And don't forget to update all the live scores or what-have-you...hehe
    Last edited by ctjcad; 05-31-2006 at 03:23 AM.

  5. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    event,
    i don't know how this ended up with a long discussion between you and me over a silly issue of whether to use bilingual or not over a silly Indonesian Open website..And i was already going to close this case, but since you respond even longer, hehe, i just want to make 2 comments:
    First, which one would you *prefer*, an Indonesian-only website or English based website. Or let's say any other language, other than Chinese or Korean(which you know), which one would choose? If you propose to have bilingual website for IBF tourneys, one for local/native speakers and the other in English, now imagine those people who are reading and following the info in their own native/local language, if they go and follow in other international IBF tourney website, which language will they be reading and understand, taking into account they don't understand the other language??..Don't you think it's English??..
    And second, since this IO website is updating very2 slow, which you and many can see and experience, imagine this a bilingual service website, how "much work" is there to be done, let alone a 1 language based website..
    My choice is, if anyone is going to do a website on IBF tourneys, stick with one common language, English, in presentation and run with it. Forget abt setting it up in bilingual or trilingual format. And don't forget to update all the live scores or what-have-you...hehe
    I don't know if the issue is that silly. You bring up an interesting question. If it is proven that bilingual sites are impossible and I say I'd prefer an English-only site, that makes me a) irrelevant because the organizers are the ones who decide on the language of the site; and b) insensitive to the needs of the people who are more likely than I am to actually attend the tournament. I could do without English websites if they hinder people who might actually go to watch, for whom the info on the site is more than just a curiosity as it is for me. I went without any pro badminton knowledge for 30 years. I could keep stumbling around non-English sites a little longer for their sake.

    When the Korea Open first went to English-only, I found more up-to-date information on the koreabadminton.org site and I wondered if the lack of English-proficient personnel were the reason for the delays. That may not be the problem with the Indonesian Open site. It seems to me the IO didn't even have a site not too long ago. Does that sound familiar?

    One alternative to an IBF requirement for an English-only site would be for the IBF to set up its own site with live scoring and draw sheets in English with tournament organizers having the power to update for their tournament. That would save the tournament organizers the trouble of re-inventing the wheel for each tournament. Judging from the state of its new website, the IBF lacks either the will or the resources or the competence to do something like that, but it might be a fairer alternative to making exigencies on the part of tournament organizers whom the IBF isn't paying, and who may have difficulty setting up a whole site in English.
    Last edited by event; 05-31-2006 at 06:38 AM.

  6. #23
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    event, i was abt to stop replying altogether, but you kept on baiting me..anyways...
    Quote Originally Posted by event
    I don't know if the issue is that silly. You bring up an interesting question. If it is proven that bilingual sites are impossible and I say I'd prefer an English-only site, that makes me a) irrelevant because the organizers are the ones who decide on the language of the site; and b) insensitive to the needs of the people who are more likely than I am to actually attend the tournament. I could do without English websites if they hinder people who might actually go to watch, for whom the info on the site is more than just a curiosity as it is for me. I went without any pro badminton knowledge for 30 years. I could keep stumbling around non-English sites a little longer for their sake.
    Hmm, true, it's not totally impossible to have a bilingual or even trilingual website, if the website organizer wants to-more power to them. But also looking at your points above which i've highlighted in bold, could that also be vice-versa, say if the website is not provided in an English-language, could that also mean the organizers are being "insensitive" to us non-native language people who wants to follow that particular tourney/website?? I mean, i'm sure you know the majority of people knowing the language of English is much more than any other language, well, maybe Chinese language is close in competition.
    Sure some people could do without an English only website, i've tried it also, by just "blindly" clicking one link to another, but i believe that's as far as one can roam...and most likely end up saying to ourselves "Help, where is an English site for this??"..

    When the Korea Open first went to English-only, I found more up-to-date information on the koreabadminton.org site and I wondered if the lack of English-proficient personnel were the reason for the delays. That may not be the problem with the Indonesian Open site. It seems to me the IO didn't even have a site not too long ago. Does that sound familiar?
    Hmm, that doesn't make sense. I mean don't tell me there are *less* English-speaking able people in Korea than Indonesia..?!?!..I'm sure there are quite a few of them in Korea..
    Sure, there hasn't even been a website dedicated to the IO in the past, well as far as i know of. Cos maybe the organizer wasn't really concerned abt making one or could be there's no budget..?!?!..

    One alternative to an IBF requirement for an English-only site would be for the IBF to set up its own site with live scoring and draw sheets in English with tournament organizers having the power to update for their tournament. That would save the tournament organizers the trouble of re-inventing the wheel for each tournament. Judging from the state of its new website, the IBF lacks either the will or the resources or the competence to do something like that, but it might be a fairer alternative to making exigencies on the part of tournament organizers whom the IBF isn't paying, and who may have difficulty setting up a whole site in English.
    This idea of yours sounds better and plausible. Hey, how abt the idea of IBF having full control of all media outlets(let it be TV/cable or live web broadcasting for us fans)..just like here in the U.S., most of the major sports is somewhat "controlled" by the league(ie. NFL, NBA, MLB)
    Hmm, now imagine if that idea really comes into fruition, could it be the missing solution to their marketing strategy??(which is of course a whole different topic altogether)..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 05-31-2006 at 12:11 PM.

  7. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    event, i was abt to stop replying altogether, but you kept on baiting me
    Baiting? I realize this is all good-natured debate but of course it hasn't escaped my attention that you're only offering to stop debating on the condition that you get the last word. If you were conceding points in that last word, it might work - and both of us are conceding more with each post so I think we agree on more than the length of the exchange might suggest - but you did ask me a few ostensibly rhetorical questions which I though warranted genuine answers.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    could that also mean the organizers are being "insensitive" to us non-native language people who wants to follow that particular tourney/website?
    Fair enough, but as a person who benefits daily from being a speaker of a language that the whole world seems to need to learn, I feel the need to hold myself to a higher standard when it comes to sensitivity to the effort involved in producing translations I might demand. I mean, the opportunity to communicate in my mother tongue is handed to me on a silver platter in country after country and in most cases I have neither the will nor the means to reciprocate. Non-native speakers have far more right than I have to demand information in an international language that they have learned at great expense.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    Hmm, that doesn't make sense. I mean don't tell me there are *less* English-speaking able people in Korea than Indonesia..?!?!..I'm sure there are quite a few of them in Korea..
    Yes, I didn't explain that well. My point about Indonesia was more that the existence of a tournament website at all is a more recent development, and so a lack of experience, rather than the language barrier, might be a more likely cause for hiccups in the operation of this year's site. This is pure conjecture, however. In the case of Korea, there is not a lot of English competence in badminton circles, to be sure, but the online badminton community is quite well-developed, as is the Internet in general. Therefore, I'm more likely to blame problems on the language barrier, especially when the information goes up on the KBA website, in Korean, much faster.
    Last edited by event; 05-31-2006 at 12:48 PM.

  8. #25
    Regular Member ctjcad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by event
    Baiting? I realize this is all good-natured debate but you're only offering to stop debating on the condition that you get the last word. If you were conceding points in that last word, it might work - and both of us are conceding more with each post so I think we agree on more than the length of the exchange might suggest - but you did ask me a few ostensibly rhetorical questions which I though warranted genuine answers.
    In most if not all of my replies, I'm just putting my point across as logically as possible, even if you thought i may be asking a "few ostensibly rhetorical questions" and needed "a genuine answers"(and in a way prolonging this discussion). Anyways, I'll leave this one up in the air for the rest of the BCers in here to read and decide/or not decide on the comments i highlighted in bold(probably they could care less abt what we are discussing) for themselves. Yes, you're right, i'm trying to concede and close this discussion and move on.
    Fair enough, but as a person who benefits daily from being a speaker of a language that the whole world seems to need to learn, I feel the need to hold myself to a higher standard.
    Sorry, i may not catch what you meant or your point. But are you referring to the English language being "a language that the whole world seems to need to learn"??..
    Yes, I didn't explain that well. My point about Indonesia was more that the existence of a tournament website at all is a more recent development, and so a lack of experience, rather than the language barrier, might be a more likely cause for hiccups in the operation of this year's site. This is pure conjecture, however. In the case of Korea, there is not a lot of English competence in badminton circles, to be sure, but the online badminton community is quite well-developed, as is the Internet in general. Therefore, I'm more likely to blame problems on the language barrier, especially when the information goes up on the KBA website, in Korean, much faster.
    As you mentioned, I understand abt "the existence of an IO website is a recent development", and IMO, it could be due to many factors. Last, not to sound as if i'm pointing fingers, but if i(or anyone else) was to track back on this thread, i believe it was you who "started" by mentioning and elaborating abt having to have "bilingual" website in response to CLELY's post, which turned out to be a slight misunderstanding..
    anyways, let's move on..
    Last edited by ctjcad; 05-31-2006 at 01:07 PM.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    But are you referring to the English language being "a language that the whole world seems to need to learn"?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by ctjcad
    i believe it was you who "started" by mentioning and elaborating abt having to have "bilingual" website in response to CLELY's post, which turned out to be a slight misunderstanding.
    Yes, it was me. I take full responsibility.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Andrianus
    OMG, I never thought Indonesians could do something so professional. This website is even more informative and better than some of the other websites I have seen over the past few years. I am so proud to be from Surabaya. It must be the Surabaya organisers who could think of something so brilliant. One piece of advice, boys and girls: next time, if you guys wanna organise something really big in Indonesia, do it in Surabaya.
    but i would like to ask from this website..where should i go if i wanna get the latest result??? as i said when i clicked at the 'result' it gave me the list of the winner of the tournament...not the thing that i want...

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sickgal
    but i would like to ask from this website..where should i go if i wanna get the latest result??? as i said when i clicked at the 'result' it gave me the list of the winner of the tournament...not the thing that i want...
    It is a lousy site !!!

  12. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by candra W
    fiuuw..
    Finally indonesia open has a website...
    and....the website needs lots of help ! Look at the results page....elementary job.

  13. #30
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    Whoa.. those are really long threads up there, guys...

    About this website, the only thing i can say is dat i coudnt find what i really want here

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