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  1. #18
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    Default Regarding the push-hit and push-swipe

    Hi Gollum.

    When trying to attack a net hugging drop by your opponent, Butch explained the push-swipe technique which I found very effective. Before this, as you mentioned, I was just doing a purely swiping motion to avoid the net--but the result was, a weak return. Butch then explained (and this is taught in the book) that one should first push at the shuttle before swiping during the follow-through--the result was/is, from my experience, more force during my returns.

    Now as for explaining the "push-hit", I got more into it in the chapter on "Power". Butch explains that to add depth/distance to one's strokes, one shouldn't just "hit" but also "push", thus push-hit. It's also important to push through a "pushing range" that Butch mentions in the book and is in the section on power. From experience, I've found this as the key to being able to return attacks from strong opponents far enough that they can't attack again. Before applying the push-hit/pushing range technique, my shots when under attack were too short (mid-court). I also use this technique to make sure my drops make it to the other side of the net (before being conscious of hitting my overhead drops through the full pushing range, my drops would sometimes die at the net), and to lengthen my drive serves.

    Anyway, thanks again for the great review.

    vip

  2. #19
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    Ah, those are interesting points!

    The idea of including a "forward then retreat" motion in the brush net kill, rather than a purely sideways motion, is helpful. I have seen this demonstrated in good instructional videos and also by professionals, especially in singles.

    I agree that a purely sideways motion is not effective because, as you say, it is hard to get any power. My problem was with the idea of hitting forwards: "the secret is to first hit down on the shuttle with a powerful hitting stroke".

    I think it is the terms, and perhaps some of the photographs, that confused me. I can't say I really understand what you're getting at with this "push-hit", even after re-reading the section on power. What does it mean to "push-hit" through "the full pushing range"?

    Is this suggesting a longer stroke motion? A longer follow through? Is it perhaps advising the player to accelerate the racket as much as possible throughout the swing, rather than swinging slowly at the start and leaving the acceleration until the end?

    It may be that I'm just having a dumb moment, and that others will find "push-hit" intuitive. But it might be worth checking.

  3. #20
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    Default Pushing range explanation

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum

    I think it is the terms, and perhaps some of the photographs, that confused me. I can't say I really understand what you're getting at with this "push-hit", even after re-reading the section on power. What does it mean to "push-hit" through "the full pushing range"?

    Is this suggesting a longer stroke motion? A longer follow through? Is it perhaps advising the player to accelerate the racket as much as possible throughout the swing, rather than swinging slowly at the start and leaving the acceleration until the end?
    On page 183 of the book, you'll see two pictures with the caption, "Pushing Range: don't just hit, push-hit!" In the two pictures, you'll see the white lines representing the "pushing range." That pushing range is around 2 feet or more (around 61 cm). When you strike the shuttle during a drive, push, smash, clear, drop, long serve (forehand or backhand), Butch advices that you make sure your stroke goes through the full "pushing range" (2 feet or more). This'll give your stroke depth. During a drop, it'll make sure your drops don't die at the net. For long serves, it makes sure your serves are deep. For defensive drives (against an opponent attacking you with smashes or drives), it lets your shot reach deep into your opponent's court. Players who aren't aware of or don't do this technique have trouble hitting deep into the opponent court. They have to strain or catch the shuttle early, otherwise, their shots are short.

    Here's another description of the technique: let's say someone is standing sideways two feet from a wall and you're standing in front of that person. Then you slap that person. A "hit" will make that person's face snap toward the wall, but that's it. A "push-hit" through the "pushing range" means slapping that person and letting your hand continue through the person's face, the result being, the person's face gets slapped as well as pushed to the wall thus actually hitting the wall. It's like the Bruce Lee advice to not just punch your opponent (which means he just feels it on the surface) but also to punch "through" the person, which means he also feels it in the insides.

    Tennis players do this when their stroke hits and goes two feet or more "through" the ball--which means their ball goes deep into their opponent's court.

    So "push-hit" don't just hit!

    When I applied this technique to my own game, it worked wonders! In case you aren't already doing it, give it a try. If you watch the top players, they all do it.

  4. #21
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    This term 'push-hit' is not very good. From the description, it sounds like when one hits the shuttle, immmediately postimpact, the racquet head needs to follow through in the direction of the intended path of the shuttle for approximately 2 feet.

    So basically, when you follow through, make sure your racquet head follows the shuttle direction for a short distance. Only then should you relax then arm in preparation for the next shot.

  5. #22
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    "push-hit" = follow-through?

    P.S.: vip,

    making yourself available for clarifications makes your book a lot more valuable. Hope Butch can also join us.
    Last edited by jdcastro; 06-10-2006 at 10:53 PM.

  6. #23
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    Default push hit not equal to follow-through

    Quote Originally Posted by jdcastro
    "push-hit" = follow-through?

    P.S.: vip,

    making yourself available for clarifications makes your book a lot more valuable. Hope Butch can also join us.
    Butch uses the term "push-hit" because he wants to emphasize that unlike the follow-through where it's understood that the shuttle (or ball in tennis and golf) has already left the racket (or club in golf), Butch wants the player to think of having the shuttle/ball still being carried on the strings of the racket through the pushing range impact.

    It could be that using high-speed filming, the shuttle has actually left the strings, but the player should feel he or she still has the shuttle on the racket string because doing so helps make the motion continue toward the target. Thinking that it's just a "follow-through" instead of a "push-hit through the pushing range", from my experience, sometimes makes the player let the stroke "die out" (have less force or get slower) before going through the full pushing range. But if you think you're still hitting/pushing the shuttle, you try to not to let up on the force/speed.

    I hope this clarifies things.

    vip

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    Okay, I think I understand now.

    It might be simpler to say: for many strokes, you must avoid using too short a swing. If you make a longer swing, then you can create power over the whole distance of the swing. If you only use a short swing to generate power, then your power will be limited.

    Of course, there are some strokes where a short swing is beneficial.

    I think part of the problem for "push-hit" is that the term "push" already has at least two meanings in badminton: as a soft "hitting action", where you do not uncock the wrist; or as a stroke, played from the forecourt or midcourt, that uses this soft pushing action.

    To make things even more confusing, on page 158 you describe brush net kills as "pushes from the net". The push from the net is a very different stroke! It travels gently downwards into the opponents' front midcourt, almost always towards the sidelines.
    Last edited by Gollum; 06-11-2006 at 03:25 AM.

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    Swing is not good either because it doesn't impart the sense of direction that the racquet has to take.

    Swing implies a circular path.

  9. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by vip_m
    Butch uses the term "push-hit" because he wants to emphasize that unlike the follow-through where it's understood that the shuttle (or ball in tennis and golf) has already left the racket (or club in golf), Butch wants the player to think of having the shuttle/ball still being carried on the strings of the racket through the pushing range impact.

    It could be that using high-speed filming, the shuttle has actually left the strings, but the player should feel he or she still has the shuttle on the racket string because doing so helps make the motion continue toward the target. Thinking that it's just a "follow-through" instead of a "push-hit through the pushing range", from my experience, sometimes makes the player let the stroke "die out" (have less force or get slower) before going through the full pushing range. But if you think you're still hitting/pushing the shuttle, you try to not to let up on the force/speed.

    I hope this clarifies things.

    vip
    Yes, but can there be a better term than 'push-hit'?

    What you have described is what I described 5 posts up.

  10. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheung
    Swing is not good either because it doesn't impart the sense of direction that the racquet has to take.

    Swing implies a circular path.
    Well, "swing" is the generic word used in most sports, including (say) tennis.

    If you want to avoid the word swing, you could use an even more generic word such as "motion" (hit with a longer motion or shorter motion).

  11. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdcastro
    P.S.: vip,

    making yourself available for clarifications makes your book a lot more valuable. Hope Butch can also join us.
    I completely agree; and this is not a service that you will normally find with a book! I like the novel ways that Vip is using to increase the value of his product

    I read the psychological article: good idea. The push-hit clarification is also welcome.

    The videos make a great addition to the book. I think it's an excellent idea to offer videos to demonstrate the ideas in the book.

    The videos are short and not especially impressive, but that's not the point. I like the integration of videos with the book's teaching

    Still, if you're looking for highly detailed videos showing perfect technique, then you would be better off with the Xiong Guo Bao video.

  12. #29
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    Default Xiong Guo Bao videos

    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum

    Still, if you're looking for highly detailed videos showing perfect technique, then you would be better off with the Xiong Guo Bao video.
    Yes, they were pretty useful. I think they augment what you learn in the book. It's pretty hard to download though because of the sendspace limitations and I haven't been able to get the megaupload site to work.

    Here's the link for those interested...

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=33121

    ...and another set from Xiao...

    http://www.badmintoncentral.com/foru...ad.php?t=33232

  13. #30
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    Yes, the e-book from Vip and co. is worth the money, but I don't like the commercial thing at the first and last pages, and then it doesn't cover everything, but the thing they include they goes into details like I have never seen in any other material.

    Vip and Gollum: In the badmintonbible Gollum shows some very nice pictures for the basic grip, but in the e-book from Vip and co. it seems like that the thumb be place different, that is bend down and more towards a U-shape than a V-shape, which Gollum shows as an error???

  14. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
    YVip and Gollum: In the badmintonbible Gollum shows some very nice pictures for the basic grip, but in the e-book from Vip and co. it seems like that the thumb be place different, that is bend down and more towards a U-shape than a V-shape, which Gollum shows as an error???
    Yes, this is a clear difference of opinion. I consider the grip shown in Vip's e-book to be an error -- and the e-book says that the grip I teach is an error. Make of that what you will.

    Actually, I should be more precise than that:

    The basic grip, with the thumb straightened rather than curled, is how you should hold the racket in preparation for your shot, and when waiting for the next shot. There will be a V-shape, and you will have good control of the racket head between your thumb and index finger.

    When you start to hit a forehand shot, however, the thumb may curl around the handle as your grip tightens.

    By the way, this is not the only area where I disagree with the e-book. In particular, while I consider the "forehand grip" presentation to be a relatively minor error, I think that the "past body forehand grip" is a gross error -- there's far too much palm showing (for comparison, see late forehand grip adjustment).

    Nevertheless, there's still lots of good content in the e-book.
    Last edited by Gollum; 09-08-2008 at 02:23 PM.

  15. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gollum View Post
    ...Make of that what you will. ...
    This actually a very important point, remember I really appreciate your material and help, and I would not be without , but there is space for improvement in both materials!

    What I have seen for a lot guides is the focus on the conclusion of one specified technique/concept to be presented as this is the way to do it, and for simple instruction material, this migth be okay. The problem is that you don't get that behind the scene and understanding of the play.

    IMO the best way to teach techniques is to give the player the overall concept of cause, but still let them have some given variables to experiment with. Teaching by experiment is a much greater gift in the long run, because some day when the coach is not there, they can actually adjust themselves because they got a understanding of what will happen when they do this or that e.g changing the grip for a higher serv.

    Concerning the placement of the thumb for the Basic grip, I have tried to experiment a bit. What "I" found is that when the thumb is placed exaggerated up along the shaft pointing towards the racket head (like a not-align thumb grip), it feels like that my thumb actually stops the racket and power and I can also feel it in my arm. But if I on the other hand (not literally) curl the thumb completely and then let the thumb touch the finger, then I can hit with more power (I feel, but not scientifc proven) and I don't have the problem about felling the hit in my arm. Unfornately there is less control. So now I have made a middle way, that works for me, where I still have the V-shape but just curl the upper part of the thumb, so it is between the index finger and this other finger that I cannot remember was is called (next to indexfinger, the longest one).


    BTW: My danish material agree with Gollum concerning the past body forehand grip. (But VIP don't mind, I think that you are still cool and I love your material).

  16. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael View Post
    What I have seen for a lot guides is the focus on the conclusion of one specified technique/concept to be presented as this is the way to do it, and for simple instruction material, this migth be okay. The problem is that you don't get that behind the scene and understanding of the play.

    IMO the best way to teach techniques is to give the player the overall concept of cause, but still let them have some given variables to experiment with. Teaching by experiment is a much greater gift in the long run, because some day when the coach is not there, they can actually adjust themselves because they got a understanding of what will happen when they do this or that e.g changing the grip for a higher serv.
    The trouble is that you must start from somewhere. In order to learn (or teach) anything, one must simplify reality; the art comes from choosing the most effective simplification.

    The fundamental grips are merely landmarks on a player's journey towards mastering racket skills. A lot of thought and experience (and not just mine!) has gone into choosing and presenting those particular landmarks.

    (Actually, I rather like that. And I think I know just where to place it.)



    Concerning the placement of the thumb for the Basic grip, I have tried to experiment a bit. What "I" found is that when the thumb is placed exaggerated up along the shaft pointing towards the racket head (like a not-align thumb grip), it feels like that my thumb actually stops the racket and power and I can also feel it in my arm. But if I on the other hand (not literally) curl the thumb completely and then let the thumb touch the finger, then I can hit with more power (I feel, but not scientifc proven) and I don't have the problem about felling the hit in my arm. Unfornately there is less control. So now I have made a middle way, that works for me, where I still have the V-shape but just curl the upper part of the thumb, so it is between the index finger and this other finger that I cannot remember was is called (next to indexfinger, the longest one).
    I think you have made a very accurate assessment, and I've found the same thing myself. This is something I've been chewing over for a while, and wondering how I might better explain it in the guide.

    When I play a full-power smash, I curl the thumb fully around the racket during the hit. When I play a clipped-down half-smash, I tend to keep the thumb quite straight throughout the hit, for control (I'll aim very close to the lines in singles).

    But I must emphasise that, even on a power-smash, this curling of the thumb and tightening of the grip does not occur during the preparation phase of the shot. It is delayed until during the racket swing. You don't want to tense your muscles too early.

  17. #34
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    Gollum: Indeed, as I said for simple instructions to start with it migth be fine, but for advanced players or adults, the variables can be landmarks in itself... But also remember that mentally we can also differ.

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