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  1. #1
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    Default Is it fair for compensation from racket clash?

    Particular cases of racket clash has been discussed on this forum. I'm more interested in the general principle: if someone is clearly at fault (i.e. no doubt who should take it), should there be compensation for broken racket due to clash? Why not?

    Sportsmanship, in my mind, includes being fair. Being fair to your opponents to call a shot 'in' on your side when there is some doubt from you whether it's on the line or out. If you break his racket from clash when it's clearly his shot, isn't it also fair to compensate him?

    The majority opinion expressed so far in the particular case above seems to be: racket clash is a risk you accept when you play doubles. I buy that argument only partially. 'Fairness' is not well considered IMO.

    Auto insurance is mandatory where I live, and if you are more than 50% at fault in a collision, you pay (at least partially). So why is racket clash different?

    You can argue driving a car implies accepting the risk of collision, because driving is voluntary, so no need to pay damage. That legal argument would be laughed at in an America court.

    My point is not you should sue someone for compensation from racket clash. But rather, fairness is a principal that's reflected in the rule of law (well, at least in America), and it's well thought out in the case of auto collision compensation, so it should also apply to racket clash by custom.

    If the custom for racket clash is 'Shrug, well, too bad', I think it doesn't stand to reason. I'd like to see a differnet custom based on sound principles.

    Playing singles is not an option where I play, because there are more people than courts, so I either play doubles or don't play. There is no compensation if I'm 50% or more at fault; this is the risk I accept when I play. But if partner is more than 50% at fault in a clash, it seems fair to me for some compensation.

    My car has been hit twice, so I know from experience that insurance companies have figured out a reasonable way to assign fault, which happens to be the other party in both cases, and I'm glad I don't pay due to someone else's fault (were it my fault, I would pay. It goes both ways). Racket clash can't be harder, and shouldn't be different.

    Once we agree compensation is fair and the honorable thing to do, we can discuss rules to decide fault. Principals first, details later. I'm asking for laser-sharp (lawyer like, if you will) reasoning for a different custom.

    Here is a strawman proposal (lawyers among us?):
    Compensation for racket clash due to fault:
    1. No compensation if the victim (whose racket is broken) is 50% or more at fault.
    2. Percentage of compensation = ((percent of fault) - 50) * 2. e.g. if victim is 25% at fault, he will get 50% compensation. If victim is 0% at fault, he gets 100% compensation.
    3. Value of compensation is based on actual cash value of racket. i.e. how much can you sell the racket for on the market on the day of clash.
    Rules for deciding fault:
    1. If it's not clear whose shot it is (by agreement or by custom), it's 50-50% at fault.
    2. If it's front back formation, the front player takes the shot w/o moving backward, but back player moves forward and cause a clash, back player is 100% at fault.
    3. If it's front back and the shuttle falls between front and back, front player moves backward and back moves forward, it's 40-60% fault.
    4. If it's side by side and shuttle comes in between, it's 50-50% unless it's clearly out of racket reach for one but in racket reach for another, in which case it's 75-25%.
    ...
    Let the sound arguments begin.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by mettayogi
    Here is a strawman proposal (lawyers among us?):
    Compensation for racket clash due to fault:
    1. No compensation if the victim (whose racket is broken) is 50% or more at fault.
    2. Percentage of compensation = ((percent of fault) - 50) * 2. e.g. if victim is 25% at fault, he will get 50% compensation. If victim is 0% at fault, he gets 100% compensation.
    3. Value of compensation is based on actual cash value of racket. i.e. how much can you sell the racket for on the market on the day of clash.
    Rules for deciding fault:
    1. If it's not clear whose shot it is (by agreement or by custom), it's 50-50% at fault.
    2. If it's front back formation, the front player takes the shot w/o moving backward, but back player moves forward and cause a clash, back player is 100% at fault.
    3. If it's front back and the shuttle falls between front and back, front player moves backward and back moves forward, it's 40-60% fault.
    4. If it's side by side and shuttle comes in between, it's 50-50% unless it's clearly out of racket reach for one but in racket reach for another, in which case it's 75-25%.
    ...
    Let the sound arguments begin.
    I see your point, and agree the fairness should be part of the game. If myself doing something out of my mind, and cause trouble to others or their property, I have no problem to chip in the lost.

    However, I think the scenarios you presented, can only be applied for certain cases, such as it's a well organized competitive game, and all the players in the game have fairly good understanding of the double games.

    Imagine what about 2 newbies are playing a game on 1 side, this is might be their 1st time to play a double game. Say 1 of them made a big mistake, by trying too hard. Should s/he really need to punished as a crime to be forced to pay for a racket? I know in this case, his/her partner might be the victim. However, the partner him/her self might not know any better, and they might attempt the same thing if they get into the situation. To me, it's very discouraging (and expensive) for a beginner to learn and enjoy the sport.

    Also, what about say a more advanced player paired with a newbie (or less mobile) partern. In theory, the advanced player should "take care of his own business". However, in reality, he has to cover more, if the game is fairly competitive. If the racket clashes, as the advanced player trying to cover the "extra zone", should he be punished? It's definitely a gray area, as well.

    To me, it's really based on the individual's own honesty. If s/he feels guilty, and willing to chip in, great. However, if s/he does not want to do so, due to whatever reason, there's nothing much we can do about it.

  3. #3
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    Racket clash and auto accidents are two completely unrelated things. To get a conclusion from one situation and apply it to a different situation is flawed.

    "Once we agree on fair compensation .." is your real battle, not the rules of compensation and etc.

    You might get agreement on the forum, but the area of application is really your own circle of badminton players.

    -dave

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    Remember that the badminton club is a social environment, a place where you go to make friends. If you start getting all technical, you'll be opening up a whole series of debates that'll only lead to these people not liking you very much. For example, do you take into account any previous damage the racquet may have sustained? What if the player strings at high tensions, thus making it more susceptible to damage? What if the shot is player A's, but player A hesitates resulting in player B to move in and take the shot? How about the role of player C who purposely plays the shot so that both A and B will go for it?

    In the end, accidents will always happen. Besides, life isn't fair, get used to it.

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    Every case is different. My partner during any game is usually a friend of mine and IF I am at fault, I will offer to compensate for his/her loss from my heart. Thank god I have not clash and brake anyone's racquet. In the middle of a state champ match both you and your partner want to win a point and clash, who is to say where the fault lies? Also what should the comp level? Should I ask for $90 for my Cab20ms because it has no scretch on it or should I ask for $65 because it is 2 yr old and has no warrenty now?

    If my racquet snap during a clash, I will just go to my bag and get my back up racquet and play on. I know it hurts. If my partner offer to pay for my racquet, I will not accept because he/she is my friend. If my partner really insist, I will ask him/her to go to a bar afterward to and buy me a beer and enjoy a drink together and joke about the game we just played. To me friendship is worth more than a $200 NS8k. Hell, if I can buy a true friend (not boy friend/girl friend, I am sure you can get on on the street for $300/night and need some protections) with $200, I will bring a lot of $100 bills to my club.

    My feeling is to be honest with yourself.

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    There are two systems of justice in the world. One system of justice is to apply universal principles to cases, no matter the apparent difference between racket and car. The other is case law.

    The general principle here is about private property: if private property is damaged w/o owner's approval, the owner has the right to demand compensation from the party at fault. Deciding whether or who is at fault will be elaborated in different domains.

    Newton discovered falling apple and movement of planet are governed by the same general principles of gravity and the law of dynamics, despite no apparent relationship b/w apple and moon, and science took a great leap forward from that insight. Social sciences and law also endeavor in the same spirit: trying to discover universal principles that govern human experience.

    Quote Originally Posted by wood_22_chuck
    Racket clash and auto accidents are two completely unrelated things. To get a conclusion from one situation and apply it to a different situation is flawed.
    -dave

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    I didn't read most of the thread, but in cases of racket clash, what if the person who is at fault racket broke? I beleive it is the reponsibility of the person who just lost their racket to get a new one. Because in almost every case, it was an accident and miscomunication. It's no use to whine and cuss about who's going to pay for it. Just go out there get a new racket and start playing, if they offer to buy you a new one then it is ok. But telling them they need to is not ok. And i don't think you can tell them how much percentage of a racket they owe you just buy a new one and get over it.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by silentheart
    Every case is different. My partner during any game is usually a friend of mine and IF I am at fault, I will offer to compensate for his/her loss from my heart. Thank god I have not clash and brake anyone's racquet. In the middle of a state champ match both you and your partner want to win a point and clash, who is to say where the fault lies? Also what should the comp level? Should I ask for $90 for my Cab20ms because it has no scretch on it or should I ask for $65 because it is 2 yr old and has no warrenty now?

    If my racquet snap during a clash, I will just go to my bag and get my back up racquet and play on. I know it hurts. If my partner offer to pay for my racquet, I will not accept because he/she is my friend. If my partner really insist, I will ask him/her to go to a bar afterward to and buy me a beer and enjoy a drink together and joke about the game we just played. To me friendship is worth more than a $200 NS8k. Hell, if I can buy a true friend (not boy friend/girl friend, I am sure you can get on on the street for $300/night and need some protections) with $200, I will bring a lot of $100 bills to my club.

    My feeling is to be honest with yourself.
    I totally agree with what you said. In the double games, if you don't want to run the risk of having your racquet broken then you should either choose not to play sticking with singles or if you do want to play and afraid that your racquet might get broken by your partner then I will use a cheaper racquet. For instance, my personal favorite is Ti-10 and it is hard to find and expensive in now a day. Thus I don't use my Ti-10 in the doubles and instead I use a cheaper alternative Cab30ms to play double. So if I do break my racquet then I will not feel too bad besides the Cab30ms is still under warranty which in some cases you might be able to get a new replacement if you can make the Yonex to honor the warranty. Otherwise, I don't think it is fair to ask someone to pay for your broken racquet. He or she are also entitled to ask you for compensating for paint chip. Cheers and enjoy the game.
    Last edited by Javalina; 07-07-2006 at 02:02 PM.

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    Javalina,

    Cheer for the beer after enjoy a game? :->

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    Quote Originally Posted by mettayogi
    There are two systems of justice in the world. One system of justice is to apply universal principles to cases, no matter the apparent difference between racket and car. The other is case law.

    The general principle here is about private property: if private property is damaged w/o owner's approval, the owner has the right to demand compensation from the party at fault. Deciding whether or who is at fault will be elaborated in different domains.

    Newton discovered falling apple and movement of planet are governed by the same general principles of gravity and the law of dynamics, despite no apparent relationship b/w apple and moon, and science took a great leap forward from that insight. Social sciences and law also endeavor in the same spirit: trying to discover universal principles that govern human experience.
    A lot of things appears to be right or wrong in "theory", might not be applicable in reality. Do you want to bring up every single case to the court, and fight for whether is 49% or 51%? In theory, why not? In reality, you will be the "unpopular" one, and everyone will be either annoyed, or scared to be around with you.

    As silentheart stated in his statement, $$$ can't buy you friendship. Loss of a racket truly hurts, but do we really want to argue for hours just because of a racket lost? And in theory, the one broke his/her racket might not be the victim, but could be the one at fault. So, even if my racket left a clash without noticeable damage, should I charge my partner an arm or leg, for the "potential damage"? Then, again, how to value the damage then? Never to metion, if anyone being an a$$, and claim "psychological effect..."

    Badminton is a good sport, and we come to the gym to get exercise, to improve, and more important to make friends. Some equipment damage or legit fees (e.g. court renting, training fee, equipment purchase, etc) is just part of the investment you need to put in. If everyone has to be so robust with a law book and a judge, then, who will ever enter a gym any more?

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    Default What if Socrates play badminton?

    Socrates will start questioning your sense of justice in case of racket clash, annoy the players, and end up having birdies smashed at him as punishment for ruining the sport and people avoid playing with him.

    Athenians are famous for their dedication to sports (Olympics, marathon, etc.) and they ended up sentencing Socrates to death, for ruining the minds of young people. Hmm, you can draw your own conclusions.

    Me? Badminton philosopher doesn't win any points, on court or off Be careful about mental exercise; they could impede your physical exercise.

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    Situation One:
    If a player clash your racket on purpose and his entire goal was clearly to
    make diseaster happen. Then yah i agree you should be fully entitle to a compensation. However, if he does it on purpose, i seriously doubt u will get the $ back EVEN if you are entitle to it.
    Situation Everthing else:
    Either the player is a newbie who dones't know what he's doing or the player is super aggressive and going all out to reach every bird even if it should be yours... then we would usually put these under "unfortunate accidient"
    there is no clear way to put the blame on either side and its commonly understood that each player be responsible for their own racket.

    either situation.. u will not likely see one player paying for the other player's racket lost.

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    Unintentional clash
    ------------------
    I think for this matter, it is up to the individuals involved in the clash to resolve the situation. Sports and traffic accident are oranges and apples...not the same. In traffic accident, one party is at fault only if it is determined he broke the law and put someone else at risk....lets limit the scope of the matter to a normal case.

    On the court, hitting your partner's racquet during a play is not breaking a law, thus, there is no legal ground to claim someone else is at fault. On the other hand, hitting opponent's racquet over the net is breaking badminton laws and I think if it really happens, one party should be held accountable and compensate the victim for the losses.

    Intentional clash
    ---------------
    In any case, if one clashes with his partner on purpose....then of course, he should compensate his partner for the losses.
    Last edited by chibe_K; 07-07-2006 at 05:35 PM.

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    if it is during a game play, then nobody owes anyone anything. if you are playing w a beginner who hits dam hard but dunno whichi shots is his, use a cheapo racket. infact if you play w anyone who dont doesnt really know about doubles, or first time playing w a new guy, dont use yr good racket.

    i dont think it is fair in anyway to ask someone to pay for your racket if tis a clash. unless you standing there doing nothing and he hit your racket for fun and broke it.

    i have a 30 dollar racket that i use w ppl i am not familar w, in case he clashes into mine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mettayogi
    There are two systems of justice in the world. One system of justice is to apply universal principles to cases, no matter the apparent difference between racket and car. The other is case law.

    The general principle here is about private property: if private property is damaged w/o owner's approval, the owner has the right to demand compensation from the party at fault. Deciding whether or who is at fault will be elaborated in different domains.

    Newton discovered falling apple and movement of planet are governed by the same general principles of gravity and the law of dynamics, despite no apparent relationship b/w apple and moon, and science took a great leap forward from that insight. Social sciences and law also endeavor in the same spirit: trying to discover universal principles that govern human experience.
    if i ever get to meet you, i need to make sure i am extra careful not to bump into you, step on you, etc. otherwise, i might get sued for it...

    seriously though, as mentioned, badminton is a social event. if you start brining in the law and lawyers, it will just spoil the fun.

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    Claiming compensation for a broken racquet from racquet clashes? You must be joking? How litigious have we become? In no time you will breed a new generation of litigation lawyers specializing in badminton racquet clashes and claims. Do we need this?

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    Default Justice

    Thanks for everyone who spent your time to share your thoughts. I'm curious, though. Is every commentator with Asian heritage? If you have no Asian heritage and agree with 'justice doesn't apply/is unimportant in racket clash' reasoning, I'd like to hear from you. I presume moral justice based on universal principles is a Western thought and not embraced by Asians, but why assume when I can ask to verify?

    This doesn't imply Asians don't value morality, but rather it's approached in a different way.

    Quote Originally Posted by chibe_K
    Unintentional clash
    ------------------

    On the court, hitting your partner's racquet during a play is not breaking a law, thus, there is no legal ground to claim someone else is at fault. On the other hand, hitting opponent's racquet over the net is breaking badminton laws and I think if it really happens, one party should be held accountable and compensate the victim for the losses.
    This argument sounds reasonable to me. If you violate the rule of badminton/road, you pay damage. If both observe the rule and racket clash, too bad.

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