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Thread: cut drop and tumble shots?
08-15-2006, 10:41 AM #1
cut drop and tumble shots?
What is a cut drop and a tumble shot? Mind to redirect me to some link, so i can learn abt the cut drop and tumble shots.
How do u perform those 2 skills?
08-15-2006, 11:54 AM #2
Cut drop I imagine is a sliced drop shot, and a tumble shot is a kind of net shot where the whole shuttle tumbles, and is a side effect of not exectuing a spinning net shot effectively.
Put spinning nets or sliced drop or even tumble shot or cut drop into the search engine and you should find some answers.
Try to search first, then ask for links later!
08-15-2006, 12:18 PM #3Originally Posted by jamesd20
But no, a tumble netshot is not a spinning netshot gone wrong. Normally, "tumble netshot" is just another term for "spinning netshot".
08-15-2006, 02:50 PM #4Originally Posted by Gollum
The difference being that a tumble shot can be left to drop and hit accurately, since gravity will balance the cork to drop, but a spinning shot cannot, as it continues to spin.
They are two different shots, and we should always aim for the spinning shot, but frequently hit the tumble since the spin is very hard to hit due to flight variations.
08-15-2006, 04:47 PM #5Originally Posted by jamesd20
The tumbling effect that you describe is deliberate. This is the standard meaning of "spinning netshot". If you watch the top singles players, especially the men, you will observe that they almost always add this tumbling motion to their netshots. Their aim is to produce a shuttle that is tumbling for a short period after it passes the net, so that the opponent must wait slightly before playing it. The tumbling motion also has the effect of generating more air resistance, so that the shuttle will fall tighter to the net.
Or you can watch Lee Jae Bok's www.ibbs.tv video on "spinning" netshots, in which every one tumbles.
Occasionally, when attempting to play a tumble netshot, the shuttle will not tumble but will spin about its axis and remain inverted for a period. This seems to be pretty random in my experience. The effect is much the same as when it tumbles, because in both cases the opponent will avoid addressing the shuttle until the tumbling/inversion has corrected itself.
There is no reliable way to produce a shuttle with extra spin on its axis, but due to the design of the shuttle it will spin naturally anticlockwise on its axis (as seen from above, dropping the shuttle on the floor). This natural spin of the shuttle means that, to produce a tumbling net shot with maximum spin (tumble), you should slice underneath it from right to left, regardless of your handedness.
Yet in some situations this is not effective (for example, when travelling from the left rear corner to the right net corner). In these situations, you must slice from left to right instead -- but the spin (tumble) will not be as great.
To make the shuttle spin on its axis, you would need to be hitting a vertical shuttle. You can then make it spin around its axis by slicing across the feathers; arguably this can be used to improve your sliced dropshots, but it is hard to imagine any technique that would allow you to make this slice on a netshot.
Last edited by Gollum; 08-15-2006 at 04:59 PM.
08-15-2006, 05:33 PM #6
A note about "natural spin" and "unnatural spin":
In his article in Power&Precision (July 2006), Nathan Rice describes the right-to-left cutting motion as a natural spin spinning netshot, and the left-to-right cutting motion as an unnatural spin spinning netshot.
His article is written entirely from the point of view of a right-hander.
He explains that the ideal motion for a spinning netshot is roughly an arc or crescent moon shape, which begins from the right of the shuttle and ends after impact on the left of the shuttle. The aim of this shape is to increase the contact time between racket and shuttle, imparting more spin.
He also says that the right-to-left motion will produce more spin because it complements the natural spin of the shuttle rather than opposing it.
He explains the situations in which you would want to use "unnatural spin" on the forehand side, although he does not explain when it would be useful on the backhand side. I shall attempt to give my interpretation:
In the left net corner, it is always better to use a "natural spin" right-to-left slice. In this corner, right-to-left is heading from the inside of the court to the outside. Because of this, it is possible to make a right-to-left slice even when you are travelling from the right rearcourt corner.
In the right net corner, it is sometimes necessary to use an "unnatural spin" left-to-right slice. In this corner, right-to-left is heading from the outside of the court to the inside. Because of this, it can be impossible (or very awkward) to reach a position where you can get your racket to the right side of the shuttle in preparation for starting the cutting arc.
This normally happens when you are travelling diagonally (say, from the left rearcourt). In this situation, it will be better to make your cutting action coincide with your horizontal momentum, rather than desperately attempt to reach around to the right side and play a shot opposed to your direction of travel.
It seems, then, that right-handers need never learn "unnatural" backhand spin and left-handers need never learn "unnatural" forehand spin.
There's quite a lot more to it than that, but I'd better stop now!
08-15-2006, 06:20 PM #7
I Partly disagree and partly agree.
Yes sometimes the tumbling effect is applied, but often it is as a mis-hit or just that the player is unsure of what he is trying to achieve with the netshot (many people believe tumbling is the sole aim).
Yes Tumbling creates more resistance enabling the shuttle to land closer to the net, but the more tumble there is on the shot then the less spin.
Yes tumbling means it is harder to hit a controlled shot for the first period, but it is easier once it has come out of the tumble. If spin is applied it is hard to control from beginning to end.
Tumbling a net shot is very easy and can be done by accident by beginners. It can be applied hitting the shuttle in any direction you like. Spinning the shuttle on a net shot is very hard and can only be undertaken in certain directions effectively and when the shuttle is moving towards you (the more the cork is facing your racket the easier to apply, but harder to control as is coming faster) If the shuttle is dropping vertically it is impossible to apply spin without failing to hit the shuttle over.
Tumbling and spin is used in varying situations by Pros. in general the further away from the net, the more likely spin will be used. For example a short service may be returned by a net shot and the shuttle is to be hit to apply spin to allow the shuttle to drop quickly and be difficult to control on reply.
A tumbling net is likely to be used when closer to the net for two reasons. Firstly if you are closer to the net then the tumble can mean the shuttle remains close to the net, and allows the shuttle to "die" on your raket and drop over, when spin would hit the shuttle a further 6-12 inches forward. Secondly if you are close to the net taking a net shot, then the shuttle is most likely heading vertically downwards, which as mentioned above means it is impossible to apply spin.
I haven't seen the video from the link given, but I imagine most if not all of the net shots are taken close to the net, not with the shuttle coming towards you way from the net (Ie around the service line.) If this is the case, then a tumble would not work due to the added resistance meaning the shuttle would be so high your opponent would kill it.
The article quoted talks solely about spin, not tumbling. Personally I would reccomend (as you have) in not using so called "unnatural spin" but simply play a different stroke.
Tumbles happen less often than you think in top games, if you notice the shuttle spins the shuttle out of the tumble quickly due to centrfiugal(?) force, and the tumble in most cases is due to the excessive spin applied. True tumble shots are rare, since once the game get so close to the net the next shot is invariably a kill.
I still believe some of the differences relate to terminology. Do you agree there is a difference between tumble and spin through my descriptions? (I have read the other threads on the matter and they are used synonmously (bad spelling))
Last edited by jamesd20; 08-15-2006 at 07:03 PM.
08-15-2006, 10:02 PM #8
jamesd20, I think I understand what you're getting at here, but is there a fundamental difference in the stroke for a tumbling versus a spinning net shot? It seems to me that that is dependent on such things as the speed of the shuttle and the angle of contact, not necessarily something in your control.
As for the unnatural backhand, I find that one occasion which I may use it is as my return of serve on the even side in doubles. What I do is I move in, swipe at the bird from left to right (I'm a rightie) which sends the bird very quickly into the right side corner. This just about always results in a lift when performed properly. I find that the bird crosses the net much more quickly than it would with a cross-court net shot, but it dies quickly resulting in a lower likelihood of hitting it out. As for the spin, sometimes it is "spinning" and sometimes it is "tumbling" or sometimes some of both, it's not really something I'm able to control well.
08-16-2006, 03:53 AM #9
Sorry, but I don't think this is a mere disagreement of terminology. I have no idea what you mean by "spinning netshot".
In my view, the "spin" in "spinning netshots" refers to a tumbling action (or occasionally to an attempted tumble where the shuttle remains inverted instead -- this seems to be random).
I am not aware of this mysterious "spinning about the axis" netshot. I have never seen one of these before, either in my own games or with the pros -- apart from the rare, seemingly random exception that I mentioned.
Could you explain your idea of a spinning netshot in more detail? I understand that you mean it spins about its axis; but is it otherwise normal? Or does it remain inverted for a period (with the cork above the feathers?
Tumbling netshots only work when you are close to the net. In the article I referenced, Nathan writes:
Originally Posted by Nathan Rice
Could you explain your idea of a spinning netshot in more detail? I understand that you mean it spins about the shuttle's axis; but is it otherwise the same as an ordinary netshot? Or does it remain inverted for a period (cork above feathers)?
Last edited by Gollum; 08-16-2006 at 04:00 AM.
08-16-2006, 05:25 AM #10
I cannot believe you have no idea of what a spinning netshot is. The article you keep referring to is solely about spinning the net shots, making no reference to tumbles, There is a picture of a shuttle spinning in the bottom right on Page three of that issue.
In a spinning net shot the cork is only above the feathers fractionally, before the spin imparted through I believe centrifugal force means the inversion is quickly moved out.
In a tumble from my definition, this is where the shuttle is inverted and randomly oscillates for a much longer period of time than the spinning net shot, however once the oscillation has stopped since there is little or no spin the shot is easy to control. With the spinning net shot the spin imparted is maintained and thus difficult to control.
Spin is this way is also applied in a forehand short service, where you attempt to hit the cork obliquely to impart more spin than the natural flight of the shuttle, thus allowing the shuttle to fly faster, but drop quickly. Lin Dan in particular uses this serve frequently. If the cork is not hit at an angle then the shot will only develop spin as the shuttle moves through the air, this creates a much slower and loopy serve, which is obviously less advantageous.
08-16-2006, 05:54 AM #11Originally Posted by jamesd20My definition of spinning netshot: where the shuttle rotates about an axis perpendicular to its axis of rotational symmetry, turning over itself one or more times. Even after it stops turning over itself, it retains some instability of motion (wobbling slightly).Is that correct?
My definition of tumble netshot: same as above.
Your defintion of spinning netshot: same as above.
Your definition of tumble netshot: where the shuttle remains inverted for a longer period than normal, oscillating (shaking) randomly, but then corrects itself with little or no spin.
My term for this: I'm not aware of a standard term. I would probably call this an "inverted netshot".
Out of interest, are you aware of any method for consistently producing what you call a tumble netshot (and I call an inverted netshot)? It seems to me that this can be a useful stroke, but I find it occurs rarely and randomly when I attempt a spinning netshot.
Last edited by Gollum; 08-16-2006 at 05:56 AM.
08-16-2006, 07:06 AM #12
For a tumble shot the technique I was shown is to hold the racket still, and only move the racket head upon contact, this way it does not impart so much spin, but "somersaults" or tumbles the shuttle.
The technique for spinning as the P&P article states is a series of arcs or quarter circle shapes depending on the direction of spin.
For tumbles the movement should be in a direction perpendicular to the line of the feathers. (if the movement in cutting across is paralell (near impossible) or very acute to the line of there feathers, then the spin wil be imparted.
Yes those definitions matched.
I find it easy to make a tumble than spin, due to the vast amount of variables needed to combine to make a good spinning netshots. (hence why previousley I had stated tumbles area result of a mishit spin-Later retracted)
08-16-2006, 08:32 AM #13
well, I haven't read anythign about the third variant. the best translation of the (dutch) word for it might be a 'jab'.
The motion is a lot like fencing (sword fighting stuff) you take a short stab towarsd the net. the shuttle somersaults and goes down almost directly. If you take it high at the net the shuttle 'tumbles' () and drops down. the arc the shuttle makes can be controlled easily: if you racket is completely horizontal the shuttle just goes up, and then down. and the more angle you racket makes the flatter the arc.
I'd say there're too many ways a shuttle can tumble to get terminology. The shuttle can rotate heavily along it's natural axis and 'spin' out of control (like: drifting sideways, or changing direction mid-air) Or it 'somersaults' in a direction towards the net, or paralel to the net. or the cork faces the net but does a weird corkscrew (or rotates out of control due to ehavy spin..) or a combination of two/three spins...
the sheer oncontrollability of a spin makes terminology difficult..
EDIT: and if you try to spin a spinnign netshot things can get really freaky
EDIT EDIT: anybody every tried doing this overhead? when you're midcourt and get a medium-high shot and see everybody crouch down for a mid-court smash. grip it loosely and 'brush' straight downwards. if done 'correct' the bird somersaults and just drops dead in the middle of it's arc. i'll do some paint illustration
Last edited by jerby; 08-16-2006 at 08:39 AM.
08-16-2006, 08:51 AM #14
08-16-2006, 01:32 PM #15Originally Posted by jerby
As for the spinning net shot (or tumble ), professional players can play it from quite far of the net (somewhere near the service line), but still make it drop vertically in the opponent's court. From what i see, there is just a quick short racket move upon contact. I think for this shot, string tension is quite an influencing factor on the technique used. At lower string tension (21-23lbs for me), it would be hard to produce such a quick sharp contact.
08-16-2006, 04:43 PM #16
Tumbling net dropOriginally Posted by alchemy2004
08-16-2006, 06:41 PM #17
the distance of how far and high the shuttle goes before falling into the tumble is influenced primarily on how much you open or close the racquet face to the shuttle upon contact.
the tumbling of the shuttle occurs because the balance of the shuttle is ruined when you slightly cut or slice the cork with this "brushing" motion as the shuttle impacts the strings. the shuttle will still bounce like normal, but will fall much differently for a few moments, which results in the opponent needing to wait for the shuttle to recover before executing his own stroke.
everyone here is right to an extent here.
as someone already mentioned, its basically an argument over terminology.
its the same shot, but everyone calls it differently.
theres very minor variations on the same shot, obviously, but some might call them all the same, while others may have different terms for each of these shots...
and all these shots can be executed in different manners too... be the brush from the racquet face being horizontal, angled, or even vertical, all depending on the orientation of the shuttle at the moment of impact, how far away you are from the net, and how early you can take the shot, right?
the result is all the same and i think that is all that really matters.
i will add that cutting the shuttle to "spin" it on its axis seems pretty damn hard to do without risking messing up the shot completely since any contact with the skirt/feathers usually have an adverse effect on thee shot overall! i've beleive i've never really seen such a shot done. and if i have, i would of probably attributed it to luck...
Last edited by chickenpoodle; 08-16-2006 at 06:44 PM.
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